 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-03-26 15:39
After experimenting with hot glue versus shellac I have found that due to the hot glues lack of hardening which tends to move that pads out of adjustment, shellac is superior and the pads stay in adjustment. Anyone else have any thoughts on this subject.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-03-26 16:23
There are many different formulations of hot melt glue with different "open times" and different melting temperatures. Some techs like a longer open time for adjusting the pad, though this means slowing down the process. The spring tension on a closed pad can push the pad out of level while the glue is still soft. I will let the glue cool a bit before engaging the key 100%. You may have better success with hot melt glue by using less heat.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-03-26 17:05
I agree with you. I've always had best results from Shellac, initially and long-term.
Tony F.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-03-26 17:56
These pads with the hot glue have gone out of regulation more than a week later with no abuse whatsoever.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-03-26 18:57
Buffet use hot glue, but even so the glue can often come away from the inside of the pad cup.
Personally I can't stand hot glue as it's very sticky at relatively low temperatures and sticks to and burns skin. Shellac will solidify on contact with skin so is easier to remove without removing skin along with it.
The only instance I have to use hot glue is when installing Jim Schmidt pads (on saxes) as they have a plastic backing and shellac won't adhere to that. Otherwise it's shellac.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-03-26 19:19
In the old days, it was all shellac ... only problem was that once in a while, the shellac would break free (usually from the cup) and the pad would fall out. Some fingernail polish would fix this until something better could be done. You just hoped you got the rotation of the pad back in the cup in the same spot ...
The pads would stay seated though, with shellac ... usually leaks were just in the pad skin becoming cut or bad with age.
Tom
Post Edited (2017-03-26 19:28)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-03-26 20:19
Scratching up the inside of the pad cup with a sharp scriber will help with adhesion as well as priming the inside of the (clean and degreased) pad cup with a thin layer of shellac before installing the pads.
Some people are dead against scoring up the inside of the pad cup for whatever reason, but it's hardly an issue as it's not even visible to anyone or has any effect on the instrument.
Storing instruments in the cold will sometimes cause shellac to come away from the inside of the pad cup if the inside surface is perfectly smooth.
As for the different colours of shellac - usually white and amber used on clarinets, the only real difference is the colour. French cement is just shellac with a white or off-white colour and is used on white pads as it matches the colour. Clear/amber shellac is typically used with brown leather and cork pads due to the colour match.
And just for the record, the colour of the shellac used has absolutely no effect on the tone!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-03-26 22:04
I stock several types of shellac and hot glue and I've tried many more. I prefer a specific type of hot glue for clarinet pads (I use shellac for saxophones). I found that at least this hot glue doesn't move and there are no problems with it. It's relatively high temp hot glue.
See the synthetic shellac stick in the attached photo. I've had the same thing though to a lesser degree happen with real shellac. Hot glue is more flexible as a stick, but this never happened with any type I've tried. This means that its springiness can actually help against this. With the relatively firm hot glue I use, the springiness is never an issue when closing a key, though I've never seen that causing a problem even with softer hot glue.
Although more rigid, the shellac (and especially synthetic shellac) can move when constant force is applied to it, exactly like a key, mainly the closed ones. Since most keys are pretty large in proportion to the key arm length, the front will always have more pressure than the back. This can cause the pad to move and eventually the back would hit before the front.
I stopped using two types of synthetic shellac for this reason. I use a few types of shellac and hot glues that don't have any short or long term problems.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-03-27 02:49
Switched from mainly using shellac to mainly using good quality hot glue about 20 years ago.
Never ever had any problem result from my using hot glue.
Have had problems with Buffets when they used hardly any glue behind the pads and plenty of instruments come in with shellaced pads coming loose in their cups.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-03-27 04:06
TomS wrote:
> In the old days, it was all shellac ... only problem was that
> once in a while, the shellac would break free (usually from the
> cup) and the pad would fall out. Some fingernail polish would
> fix this until something better could be done.
You can re-cement a shellac-mounted pad just be gently heating the pad cup - the result is the same as the process of originally installing the pad.
When I watched Moennig replace pads back in the (pre-hot-glue) '60s and '70s, he used shellac he had liquefied by dissolving it (I suppose flakes) in alcohol. He put the liquid in the pad cup (I've forgotten what he used to drop it in), heated it to evaporate the alcohol, and then placed the pad in the cement. The cement (now without the solvent) hardened as it cooled just as shellac does when melted directly off a stick in a flame. I'm curious if you here melt stick shellac directly into the pad cup or use dissolved shellac?
Karl
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-03-27 06:52
I have re-melted shellac and replaced pads ... but in an emergency, you'd borrow a bottle of fingernail polish from a pretty girl in the Band ... Some of the guys had cigarette lighters, but not as much fun to ask for help ... and I might set fire to something. I have also used a soldering iron to apply heat to the pad cup.
Tom
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2017-03-27 17:31
"The spring tension on a closed pad can push the pad out of level while the glue is still soft..."
Would not this just level the seal?
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-03-27 20:11
>> Would not this just level the seal? <<
No. Since the hinge is on the side, there is more pressure away from the hinge where the lever is longer. This would work (more or less, but probably not really) if the force was coming from above the key, perpendicular to the tone hole. If simply heating the key and letting it close with its spring would create a good seal then installing pads would be much easier and faster than it is.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-03-28 09:10
I use clear natural real ahellac and I grind it up to a fine powder using a mortar and a Pessel then put the fine powder in the pad cup and heat using a pad cup heater. Works very well.
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