 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2017-02-08 12:15
Am I alone in prefering the 1+1 fingering for the clarion Bb? The standard x x 0 sidekey fingering sounds too bright and aggressive to my liking (I have tried on a plastic Yamaha 250 and a Noblet 40). In fact, on my newly-acquired Noblet 40, I prefer the 1+1 fingering for the chalumeau Eb as well.
Post Edited (2017-02-08 12:15)
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2017-02-08 14:52
This really depends on the instrument and the context of the note. Intonation and sound of standard and alternative fingerings are differing on one clarinet, but also between clarinets.
I do sometimes use the '1 + 1' fingering, depending on (technical) context (f.i. a fast arpeggio Bb maj), but this fingering tends to be a bit sharp on my clarinet so it's not preferred for sustained notes. Normally, I choose the standard (with sidekey), of which the sound and intonation are best in line with the notes next to it.
However, I do sometimes prefer to finger F#5 as RT|xxx|00x, since RT|xxx|0x0 can sound a bit bright (depending on the reed, another variable). Also RT|xxx|x0,0 may be preferrable.
So, it depends...
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
Post Edited (2017-02-08 18:21)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-02-08 17:48
In the end you can use whatever fingering works best. On clarinets that I've played 1+1 Bb tends to be slightly sharp and 1+1 Eb even sharper, so they aren't good fingerings for longer notes when the pitch is more noticeable.
One fingering is sometimes more convenient than the other for technical passages. If the note goes by quickly enough, neither the pitch nor the sound quality makes much difference.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2017-02-08 20:16
Be comfortable with all fingers so you always have the choice to use the best one for the given passage.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-02-08 20:55
I agree with all these folks, it depends on the surrounding technique involved. I love 1&1 on my horn. I've even used it in unorthodox places like the first note in Concertino (Weber). It gives a little extra resistance to help sneak in...managing a smooth transition to the A-natural that follows is of little consequence.
1&1 falls into my "is their a lazier way of getting through all this technique" trouble shooting. Many times the answer is 'yes'!
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-02-08 21:17
On my Leblanc LLs I have the forked Eb/Bb mechanism so now have 4 alternatives to clarion Bb.
There is no difference in pitch between all these alternatives but subtle differences in sound and resistance.
So overall the fingering is chosen mainly by the context of the surrouding notes.
The 1/1 fingering for Eb is very sharp on every clarinet I have ever played (hundreds) so is useable only in fast passages.
The fork Eb is a perfect pitch but slightly more resistant than side or cross Eb keys, but invaluable in many arpegio passages.
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Author: Cappuccino
Date: 2017-02-08 22:04
Context is everything in regards to my preference for certain fingerings.
Alexander May
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFZta2RG4iM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh8O5DC4Tqs
"Looking at art, you're looking at the result of a philosophy." - John Emmett
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2017-02-09 02:15
Alternate fingerings like 1+1 can be a life saver in fast arpeggios and other occasions where exact pitch is not the main issue. Know your horn and make a chart of each alternate fingering with a middle tone (without lipping it up or down) and know what you give up with each.
Also, since 1+1 involves the link across the 2 joints, you need to watch that adjustment, cork and 1+1 pads carefully. Become familiar with adjusting in case you find yourself leaking, or not completely closing a pad. One of my horns has a very slightly tilted lower piece so that very slight (+/- 1 degree) rotation of one joint relative to another will quickly adjust the 'timing' of the closing of the 1+1 pads - useful if you play in places that cause the pads to swell or shrink.
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2017-02-09 06:54
Much to my surprise, over the past year I've discovered that the forked Bb (but not Eb) fingering plays in tune (RT xox ooo) on most of my various clarinets, including Rossi, Leblanc, Ridenour, and a Buffet R13 academy model. Is this unusual -- why isn't it taught more?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-02-09 10:03
Depends on the piece for sure. I keep talking about the Yamaha CSVR's. Both fingerings are pretty good. Well in tune. 1 on 1 has a sweeter sound on slower movements sometimes.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2017-02-09 13:40
I am working on three pieces: Brahms F minor Sonata, Finzi Bagatelles and Hindemith Sonata. I find the side Bb far too bright for Brahms, and the 1+1 fingering gives me a tone closer to what is in my head.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-02-09 18:08
You can use any fingering you want to use in any context as long as it sounds smooth, but banishing the "standard" fingering (RH side Bb) for an entire piece (or even an entire composer) because of its tone color seems extreme. You might be better off learning to tame or re-color the sound of the note a little with small changes inside your mouth. Surely that's not the only note that seems too "bright" on your clarinet.
Is your side Bb also sharp as well as "bright?" If so, you might improve both with a piece of very thin tape placed inside the top of the tone hole.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-02-09 18:16
I also find myself wondering, why, if the side Bb is too bright for Brahms, it's OK for the other pieces.
The implication of what you've written is that the notes surrounding clarion Bb are not too bright for Brahms and that Bb is noticeably different, "brighter." If it's too bright in one context, and it sounds different from the surrounding notes, it will sound that way regardless of the musical context. So you're suggesting that for the one note to stand out from the others around it is OK for Finzi and Hindemith but not for Brahms.
Karl
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2017-02-09 19:18
Actually I find many notes in my clarion register to be too bright for many spots in Brahms F minor, in my conception of the work. The clarion G, for example, sounds very bright the way I play the clarinet. I can't stand listening to myself playing the opening two notes of Brahms F minor 3rd movement, even though I am already enriching the throat Bb by using the side trill key with a resonance fingering. I have to add the low E key to darken my G. There are other notes in the clarion register that I am using alternative fingerings to achieve a sound more in line with the one in my head.
I also find the regular clarion Bb too bright for Finzi's Romance, but not so much for the Fughetta - in my conception, the Fughetta should be exuberant.
Incidentally, the regular side Bb is in tune, just too bright for my liking.
I think either I have a serious fault in my blowing, or I have the wrong kind of clarinet sound in my head, or both.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-02-09 23:50
I think that what you are discovering with your particular clarinet is an illustration of the diferrences between professional and student/intermediate clarinets.
The toneholes sizes, shapes, positions plus a whole load of other acoustical factors are adjusted on the professional models to achieve the optimum balance between pitch, tone, resistance and flexibility etc between all the notes of the instrument but with particular emphasis of the closeness in all these aspects between adjacent notes.
I have watched and heard top players in a hand makers front room testing out very slowly the equality between every semitone and tone over the whole scale as part of their auditioning process for a new clarinet
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-02-10 23:40
Clarion G and clarion side Bb are bright on many clarinets, for inherent acoustical reasons. It is because there are certain resonances in the lower unused end of the instrument that sort of amplify these notes. There are similar acoustical effects in oboes, oboe d'amores, and English horns, which can be even more frustrating and hard to fix.
My original teacher, Earl Handlon, made sure that his students practiced all the optional fingerings, using Klose exercises, but never commented on their tuning or brightness.
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Author: RKing
Date: 2017-02-12 19:48
I have a student clarinet, plus a couple of "pro" horns and the side key Bb sounds better to me on all of them. I'll use the 1+1 if necessary, but I like the sound of the side key better.
I have similar issues with my tenor saxes. With my Super Action 80, the 1+1 keying is perfectly in tune and virtually indistinguishable from the side key note. But on my Mark VI, the 1+1 is definitely flatter.
As with almost everyone in this thread, I study the music and decide which fingering to use on each piece.
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