 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: calicoco
Date: 2016-10-21 07:48
Hi this is me again. Sorry if this question sounds kind of dumb.
I was wondering if when playing clarinet, should you be hearing only the sound of the note? Or will you just faintly hear air while playing?
Thanks.
Post Edited (2016-10-21 12:38)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-10-21 17:52
If you're finding the lower register especially 'airy', then drop down half a reed strength to see if that clears things up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: calicoco
Date: 2016-10-21 19:41
Yeah, I think the "hissing" noise is a better description. You can't hear it when I play mp-f volumes but when I play at the softer dynamic i can hear the "hissing" and you could too if you were standing next to me. I can hear it when playing in all registers of the clarinet.
I use v12 3.5 on an M13 mouthpiece with R13 clarinet.
Thanks for replying to my post.
Post Edited (2016-10-21 20:00)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-21 21:08
calicoco wrote:
> Yeah, I think the "hissing" noise is a better description. You
> can't hear it when I play mp-f volumes but when I play at the
> softer dynamic i can hear the "hissing" and you could too if
> you were standing next to me. I can hear it when playing in all
> registers of the clarinet.
It still isn't clear if this is the frying eggs sound you get when the reed isn't vibrating at peak efficiency or the sound of air escaping from your embouchure around your mouthpiece. We're assuming from your description, I think, that it's reed noise and not air escaping.
First, check the rails of your M13, especially the tip rail, to make sure there are no nicks or dings.
Then try a softer reed - maybe a 3 - and see what happens.
Check for reed balance by rotating the mouthpiece slightly in your mouth first in one direction, then the other to see if the same sound comes out for both directions. If one direction seems weaker or noisier than the other, the side that is up (in less contact with your lower lip) when you rotate the mouthpiece is stiffer than the other side. If the reed isn't balanced, correcting the imbalance may help reduce or eliminate the noise.
There are lots of players who accept limited reed noise at softer dynamic levels as a trade-off for the advantages they find in using reeds at the stiffer end of the strength range that responds for them. In general no one more than a few feet away hears it (if it isn't really loud) - neither the audience nor, usually, the conductor - although colleagues sitting next to you may notice it.
Karl
Post Edited (2016-10-23 17:53)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-10-21 21:09
Is the hissing coming from the horn or your embouchure? Out of the side of your lips. A very common problem for players.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: calicoco
Date: 2016-10-21 21:17
Hi again,
Sorry for leaving out that detail. The hissing is not air escaping from my embouchure. It's from the horn (or reed noise).
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2016-10-21 23:24
I think the reed suggestions above make sense. Also, if you have bladder/skin pads - there might be a chance that one of the skin surfaces has ripped and is fluttering. You could visually look at each pad to see if there's anything sticking down, torn, etc. (I had this happen once, but I think the sound was more of a buzz than a hiss.)
That's about all I have, so I'll leave you in the capable hands of the pros here on the board.
Best of luck,
Fuzzy
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-10-23 17:37
Following up on Fuzzy's post, try various notes to see which ones have the hiss. If there is a rip in the skin (and you can't see it), you can narrow down the location by noting which notes hiss. It's not obvious to me whether the hiss would come from the bad pad being open or closed. (I haven't used skin pads in decades.)
Burt
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2016-10-23 18:15
A clear and pure tone on all notes at all dynamics is one goal of long tone practice. You might use such practice to assist in diagnosing your situation, and again when comparing reeds, embouchures, and setups.
There is apparently a degree of control over the effect during play. Some clarinetists I've heard seem to add a touch of "fuzziness" to their sound in some contexts, which would presumably indicate a little bit of air hiss. Perhaps this is done by slightly loosening the embouchure, which might be in effect increasing the strength of the reed relative to the embouchure.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-10-23 19:01
A combination of poor venting (pad opening heights) and a reed that's too stong for the player will compromise the following low register notes causing them to sound stuffy:
F - xxx|xxxF/C
F# - xxx|xxx with either LH or RH F#/C# key
G - xxx|xxx
G#/Ab - xxx|xxxAb/Eb
B - xxx|xo/o (chromatic fingering)
C - xxx|ooo
C#/Db - xxxC#/G#|ooo
D#/Eb - xx\o|ooo and xxo|Side Eb/Bb ooo
E - xoo|ooo
F# th. ooo| side F# ooo
G - thumb off ooo|ooo
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-10-28 20:59
The most BASIC causes of air in the sound are these four things:
1) Reed Strength. Your reed might be too hard. Or even too soft! Try a different strength (softer first).
2) Voicing. Are you feeling the note in the front of your mouth with an "EEE" feeling, or in your throat with a "GUH" sensation. Bring the sound forward in your mouth.
3) Air speed. Your air might be too slow and "spread out." Clarinet air must be cold and fast!
4) Leaks. Is some air leaking from your embouchure? Check for this. Make sure you have enough mouthpiece in your mouth.
I hope this helps!
I'm not sure what level you are playing at, but I'm willing to bet that any of these items is more likely than blown out bladder pads, mouthpiece imperfections, etc. Do you have a teacher?
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
Post Edited (2016-10-28 21:01)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-28 22:34
Sean.Perrin wrote:
>
> 3) Air speed. Your air might be too slow and "spread out."
> Clarinet air must be cold and fast!
>
Sean, every time I read about air speed I have to scratch my head (it's starting to bleed, I think). How exactly do you as a player directly change air speed? I accept that changing the interior vowel from an OH or OOO to EEE probably speeds the air up. But beyond that, what control do you have over it? And what does air feel like to a player when it's "spread out" (I've always applied this term to the sound, but I don't understand how it applies to the air itself).
Are these simply images that may or may not connect for an individual player, or do you consider them to be real, concrete parameters of an air stream?
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-10-28 23:06
Sounds like a pad maybe. First have this checked out. If you live near me, No charge.
Then if you are still having issues we go to the next step. Often you can't see a bad bladder.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-10-29 08:49
I can't figure out how to quote, sorry Karl.
But here's one way to think about air speed. I'm sure everyone has their own explanation.
Pretend it's very cold out and blow air into your hands, as if you warm them up. This warm, "haaaa" air is very slow and warm. Not good clarinet air.
Now pretend you're blowing out a candle from a distance. You have to focus the air in such a way that it's fast and cold. Feel it with your hand.
This is the basic difference between cold, fast air, and warm, slow air and is generally what people here are referring to.
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-10-29 08:49
I can't figure out how to quote, sorry Karl.
But here's one way to think about air speed. I'm sure everyone has their own explanation.
Pretend it's very cold out and blow air into your hands, as if you warm them up. This warm, "haaaa" air is very slow and warm. Not good clarinet air.
Now pretend you're blowing out a candle from a distance. You have to focus the air in such a way that it's fast and cold. Feel it with your hand.
This is the basic difference between cold, fast air, and warm, slow air and is generally what people here are referring to.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-29 12:45
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> I can't figure out how to quote, sorry Karl.
>
Click on the "Quote" button icon on the left of the same row where "Post" is located.
> Pretend it's very cold out and blow air into your hands, as if
> you warm them up. This warm, "haaaa" air is very slow and warm.
> Not good clarinet air.
>
> Now pretend you're blowing out a candle from a distance. You
> have to focus the air in such a way that it's fast and cold.
> Feel it with your hand.
>
> This is the basic difference between cold, fast air, and warm,
> slow air and is generally what people here are referring to.
OK, I understand how this affects the volume of air per unit of time, hence, speed. But the way I make the air "faster/colder" (moving more air per second) to blow out the candle in this example, which I've read here before more than once, is to blow harder and make the aperture of my lips smaller.
But if I blow harder into a clarinet, all I get is "cold/fast air = loud" and "warm/slow air = soft." If I always play with fast/cold air as you and others describe it, I'll never get below mezzo-forte. I can't change the aperture much and then only by biting the reed closed with unwanted consequences in the response. IMO air speed in this sense is how you control the sound volume, so trying to maintain fast air at soft volume levels is to me more or less impossible. Other control techniques are needed to keep the tone quality clear and "centered" at piano and pianissimo.
It is, of course, the tendency with a clarinet to get more noise - rushing air - in the tone at very soft volume levels, when the player is necessarily using relatively little air over time (slower air). Many excellent players accept the noise, knowing that what the audience will hear is just very soft clarinet tone because they know from experience that the noise won't carry. But I'm still not sure from your explanation how to make air go faster and still maintain a piano or pianissimo dynamic.
I had no problem, btw, with your other three recommendations. It clearly *is* possible to play pianissimo without extra noise in the sound, and points 1, 2 and 4 can certainly help.
KArl
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-10-29 18:59
You can blow less cold, fast air as well! This was just an example to make this clear and make sure diaphram support was there.
Pretend you just burned yourself and blow this air on your hand. Feel it.
There's clearly less air than the candle exercise, but the air remains cold, focused, and fast.
It's about pushing the air past the reed and getting it buzzing not from volume, but from air speed and pressure.
You can play incredibly softly with NO "airiness" this way assuming your clarinet is set up properly and you have a proper reed.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-10-29 19:02
It's not just the shape at the front of the mouth, though of course this helps. It's also the internal cavity shape and the way the diaphragm is engaged in the air support.
Set your embouchure and try the warm vs cold air (warming hands vs cooling them) and you should find that he "haaaa" sound comes more from the back of the throat whereas the faster one feels farther forward in the mouth.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-29 21:09
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> Set your embouchure and try the warm vs cold air (warming hands
> vs cooling them) and you should find that he "haaaa" sound
> comes more from the back of the throat whereas the faster one
> feels farther forward in the mouth.
>
Yes, but that goes more toward your point about EEE - the inside shape of your mouth, especially your tongue position, changes. And a higher tongue will certainly increase air speed.
So, I suppose, the speed (or maybe flow rate is a better term) is faster even at pianissimo with a higher tongue, but it isn't as fast (high flow rate) as the same shape will produce at fortissimo.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-29 21:20
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> Pretend you just burned yourself and blow this air on your
> hand. Feel it.
>
I still have to close the aperture of my lips. If I do that with a fully open mouth, I get back to "warm/slow" air.
> It's about pushing the air past the reed and getting it buzzing
> not from volume, but from air speed and pressure.
>
Here's where we may diverge. I'm not convinced that this is air speed in operation. Pressure, of course, is a different parameter. I'll think a little more about this, but I have an errand to run and will have to get back later.
> You can play incredibly softly with NO "airiness" this way
> assuming your clarinet is set up properly and you have a proper
> reed.
>
Yes, good players can, but I'm still not convinced that "air speed" is a parameter that you directly control to accomplish this. Since, in my view, the air speed (or as I suggest in my other response sent before this one, flow rate, which is maybe more what we're talking about) is controlled by other parameters that we do directly control, I'm not sure how much use it is to recommend a high flow rate of air as a standalone solution to playing problems.
Maybe I still misunderstand the whole concept.
Karl
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-10-30 01:14
This isn't *exactly* how to play, or *exactly* what to adjust, it's a conceptual idea that helps align other aspects without explaining in precise detail. A metaphor if you will.
By thinking about the air "speed" the questions of pressure and flow rate tend to solve themselves.
You need to work your ear and voicing in conjunction with these metaphorical concepts with practical exercises.
My point is sort of like this. We don't need to know the precise workings sports to play them, even well. Sure you need to know a LOT and practice a TON, but you can still know a lot about exactly how to make a great put without getting out your protractor and the exact number of newtons required for the swing. Arguably, you're better off without this intensely scientific approach since it may cloud things.
I'm sure some people would be happy to overthink this with you, but unfortunately I don't see how it helps the music to know the exact number of pascals required, for example. I'm not even sure if that's what you're asking or implying.
As far as offering a "standalone" solution I'm really not sure what you mean by that. It's one piece of a puzzle that we are trying to help you with not even having heard what you are talking about. I'm sorry if it's not helpful or what you were looking for. Not to mention we still don't even know if this is the problem OR solution. :P
Does anyone with more exacting knowledge/concepts want to chime in and offer their thoughts? I'm doing a podcast episode about this sort of stuff soon with Wesley Ferreira maybe he'll have some other ideas.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
Post Edited (2016-10-30 01:18)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-10-30 02:28
Sean.Perrin wrote:
> This isn't *exactly* how to play, or *exactly* what to adjust,
> it's a conceptual idea that helps align other aspects without
> explaining in precise detail. A metaphor if you will.
kdk wrote:
> Are these simply images that may or may not connect for an
> individual player, or do you consider them to be real, concrete
> parameters of an air stream?
At this point we come back together onto the same path, I think. When I first asked the above question, I was fully prepared to accept "air speed" as a metaphorical device that might help some players over technical issues that otherwise seem challenging to them.
I agree with what follows in your last post and have no issue with talking about a metaphor like "air speed" if it sparks an understanding for a specific student. That it doesn't work for me may be my failing, but that doesn't invalidate the image *as an image* that may of use to others. (For the record it wasn't my question in the first place - I don't have a problem with noise to solve.)
> We don't need to know the precise workings sports to play them, even
> well. Sure you need to know a LOT and practice a TON, but you can still
> know a lot about exactly how to make a great put without getting out
> your protractor and the exact number of newtons required for the swing. > Arguably, you're better off without this intensely scientific approach since > it may cloud things.
Absolutely!
The problem, what sparked my reaction to your suggestion, is that this has come up before, proffered by other players than you who really, genuinely seemed invested in the existence of "fast/cold" and "slow/warm" air as real things that can be directly controlled and that, if controlled purposely, would lead to better playing results. As a metaphor I can only say, if it works, use it.
Karl
Post Edited (2016-10-30 02:37)
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2016-10-30 04:44
I think if anything the fast/cold analogy enables the diaphragm to be properly engaged.
Regarding the nature of the question, I'm sorry but I assumed you chimed in because you were having a similar issue! My apologies.
Good conversation!
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: birdpond
Date: 2016-12-19 20:29
Hope you don't mind me asking a similar (and embarrassing) question, about the sound of sizzling heard very loudly in my ears/upper cheeks region (but not audible in the recordings I make of my practice sessions.) It's loud enough to almost blot out the sound of my playing and physically uncomfortable too - and getting worse. Oddly when blowing moisture out of the reed after playing I can blow as hard as I like and not hear the sound, no air is leaking, but on the mouthpiece I feel a dreadful pressure and the sizzling is also in the back of my throat as well as my ears/upper cheeks. Or seems to be. Is this just deflected sound of leakage around the mouthpiece or is it actually going on way back inside my mouth as it sounds/feels?
I admit I've only been playing a few weeks. The sizzling started a couple weeks ago it's been getting progressively worse. It's now bad enough I wonder if I'm causing damage to the mucous membranes in my mouth (can you blow out a vein or anything by blowing incorrectly?) and I find I'm picking up my new /used clarinet less and less.
I've tried various remedies, such as switching back to a softer reed, cleaning both the instrument and the reed more frequently during playing, etc but still . . .
Thoughts?
Thanks -
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2016-12-20 09:05
Hi Birdpond -
It sounds as if you are likely tensing up in places that should stay relaxed when you play.
If you form your embouchure and blow air without the clarinet is there any discomfort or impression of inappropriate internal noise? What about if your tongue is raised in the back as it should be (assuming you are going for a classical/concert band sound), blowing "heee"?
If all this is fine try placing a finger in front of your lips to create some of the back pressure that is inherent in blowing into a clarinet. If all is still well, try to determine what you are doing differently from this when you actually blow through the clarinet.
My guess is that you are most likely closing off your throat without realizing it, perhaps to compensate for not having your tongue high enough in back. It's also possible that you are keeping your tongue TOO high and thus closing off the throat.
That's just an educated guess though. Things should become clearer through trying the steps above.
Another possibility is that you are practicing a) longer or b) in a higher range than your current level of development can support and thus tightening in odd places in order to compensate for a) fatigue or b) lack of readiness for the upper register. You didn't mention that things start off ok and then get worse during a session, so that's probably not it.
Let us know how it goes!
Anders
Post Edited (2016-12-20 12:57)
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Author: birdpond
Date: 2016-12-21 05:14
Thank you, nellsonic, I think you're right. It does get worse the more tired I become. I am just a beginner, and am not getting instructive feedback on what I'm doing in real time (except for hearing the recordings I make of my practice and getting frustrated.) So I am probably pushing myself too fast and hard, trying to 'get it right' before I've developed the muscles and control I need - and my embouchure is falling apart yet I am too determined (nice word, lol, but pig-headed might be more accurate) to give it the rest it needs.
<sigh>
I will pay more attention to my throat, since I'd not considered I could be closing it off. You touched on several very relevant areas and seem to have real insight into what's going on.
Are any of the online courses worth following? Might provide a framework and progression I can follow, rather than flailing around trying this and that.
Thank you!
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