 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-12-14 00:46
So I've been hit by a reed dilemma. I'll tell you the preparing phase and break in phase.
NOTE:
-I have been making embouchure changes and I can't play for more than 10-15 minutes at a time
-I play on D'Addario 3.5+
-Vandoren M15
-The reeds he has been hearing are about 2-3 months old
Preparing:
1. Wet just the vamp
2. Get 600 grit paper and sand the vamp and back of the reed
3. Wet just the vamp again
4. Sand the vamp and back with the back of the sandpaper
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 two more times
6. Use the reedgeek and seal the back with it
7. Play an open G and do the side to side
8. Move the reed accordingly
9. Firmly press the reed on the rails up against the MP
(You can tell this is exactly Hadcock's way of preparing only with an added step)
Break in:
I just do what Ed Palanker says to do.
Previously when I played my teachers never told me to address the reed, however with this teacher he's asking me to do that.
Now I use the ATG System and I know some complaints with it is that it can cause spreading on a reed.
After 10 minutes of playing the reed seems to start to spread. Or is it just my embouchure getting tired fast? Or is the reed just old?
I also get tired of playing really fast, so is it not the reed? Am I just losing control which is causing the reed to spread? Or is it the reed itself?
Is the embouchure the problem?
Is the ATG System the problem?
Do I need a higher strength reed?
Is my preparing phase of the reed causing the reed some problems?
Is the reed too old?
Post Edited (2016-12-14 00:49)
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-12-14 02:27
I don't understand what you mean by the reed spreading. Do you mean that the tone starts to spread? If so, it's likely your embouchure getting tired. I have no idea whether your reed is too old. Some will play for many tens of hours while others never play right.
You should try other reeds - softer, harder, and the same strength. Don't count on 2 reeds that are labeled the same to play the same. If you have the right strength, it should play reasonably well right out of the box. Breaking it in will make it a little softer.
Your reed preparation is very extensive. I never did that much to a reed unless it needed it.
Before I switched to Legere reeds, I used the ATG for at least 10 years. I don't see how that could be the problem.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2016-12-14 02:52
100% on Burt's thoughts. I have no idea what "reed spreading" is.
I, too, have used the ATG system for years. I pull out a new reed, go through Tom Ridenour's routine and 'bam' - I've got a good reed. NO offense to Robert Hadcock, but that's a pain in the butt to do all that.
Experiment with various reeds like Burt suggested. Strengthen your embouchure (there's countless threads with suggestions). You'll undoubtedly be brilliant sounding soon. If I were a betting man...and I am...I bet you're sanding everything too much and your reed is too soft.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
Post Edited (2016-12-14 02:55)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-12-14 06:19
I think you're doing a lot of stuff without having any real idea why you're doing it except that someone said to do it in a book.
We don't know (because you don't tell us) what kind of embouchure changes you've made, and we don't know who your current teacher is or what he's trying to get you to do. But if an embouchure change has caused you to have significantly less endurance for any longer than a few days, I'd say (my opinion) either it wasn't a good change or you're not executing it well. How long were you able to play without tiring before the change?
Asking you to "address the reed" puts the responsibility on your teacher to show you what he thinks you should do. Does he go through all the process that you're using? How does he adjust his reeds? If he thinks it's important for you to be learning to work with reeds, he should be teaching you.
The tone can be spreading because you're tired or because the reed is becoming waterlogged and is losing some of its resilience. It can also happen if the reed is too old or too soft. Again, these are judgments your teacher should be making when he hears you play. We're all guessing.
You shouldn't need a stiffer reed for an M15 than a 3.5+. It may actually be too hard, which might explain your short endurance.
You almost certainly need to spend less time fussing with your reeds and more time playing them. I imagine Peter Hadcock could have explained exactly why he went through each one of those steps (or maybe not), but there are a lot of really good players who do far less and play beautifully.
If the goal is to make a reed play responsively, what's needed most is that it be balanced and the right strength. You can control the strength to a large extent by simply choosing wisely. You can improve balance with ATG, rush, a knife, sandpaper, a Reed Geek or any other tool that lets you remove small amounts of cane from one side or the other in a controlled way. All the rest needs to have a reason or it may well be wasted time and energy.
Karl
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-12-14 09:04
kdk wrote:
> I think you're doing a lot of stuff without having any real
> idea why you're doing it except that someone said to do it in a
> book.
>
> We don't know (because you don't tell us) what kind of
> embouchure changes you've made, and we don't know who your
> current teacher is or what he's trying to get you to do. But if
> an embouchure change has caused you to have significantly less
> endurance for any longer than a few days, I'd say (my opinion)
> either it wasn't a good change or you're not executing it well.
> How long were you able to play without tiring before the
> change?
>
> Asking you to "address the reed" puts the responsibility on
> your teacher to show you what he thinks you should do. Does he
> go through all the process that you're using? How does he
> adjust his reeds? If he thinks it's important for you to be
> learning to work with reeds, he should be teaching you.
>
> The tone can be spreading because you're tired or because the
> reed is becoming waterlogged and is losing some of its
> resilience. It can also happen if the reed is too old or too
> soft. Again, these are judgments your teacher should be making
> when he hears you play. We're all guessing.
>
> You shouldn't need a stiffer reed for an M15 than a 3.5+. It
> may actually be too hard, which might explain your short
> endurance.
>
> You almost certainly need to spend less time fussing with your
> reeds and more time playing them. I imagine Peter Hadcock could
> have explained exactly why he went through each one of those
> steps (or maybe not), but there are a lot of really good
> players who do far less and play beautifully.
>
> If the goal is to make a reed play responsively, what's needed
> most is that it be balanced and the right strength. You can
> control the strength to a large extent by simply choosing
> wisely. You can improve balance with ATG, rush, a knife,
> sandpaper, a Reed Geek or any other tool that lets you remove
> small amounts of cane from one side or the other in a
> controlled way. All the rest needs to have a reason or it may
> well be wasted time and energy.
>
> Karl
Lots of great things being told.
I should've been more clear on the embouchure changes. Previously I never pushed forward with my lower jaw and I also never had a strong and firm lower lip. So right now what my teacher is asking me to do is to firm up the bottom lip and to push the jaw out more, so that my teeth line up. However, don't confuse the pushing with the type that gives you TMJ. It's the type of pushing that controls the reed, but doesn't cause jaw pain. By the way my teeth are perfectly aligned when I just normally close them. Also, before these changes my teacher taught me to have an overbite, so I would push my lower jaw back and cause absolutely no engagement of the reed.
Yes, I do mean that the tone is being spready. Also, I do what Hadcock says, because in the book he said it made his tone bright, which is what I want.
I guess I will experiment with 3.5's and 3.5+'s, because I remember, I believe, that 3.5's felt like the right strength and 3.5+'s felt a good bit stiffer. So with that in mind I will also cut back on the sanding. My teacher did make a comment about my sanding and how he theorized that perhaps I was sanding way toooo much.
As for building up my embouchure strength I've been doing a lot of Weber, Bil Jackson, Sean Osborn, and Klose long tones. It's been helping, but I have to keep working on it.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-12-14 09:41
+ for Kdk's comments.
Sanding a reed is only needed if it is too rough a surface or if it doesn't respond properly, in which case, selective sanding of a certain area can fix it.
However, I've never understood balancing of reeds in the same way it is referred to in this forum and have never used things like ATG or Reed Geek. I sometimes do WTG with a knife. A piece of lathe tool stock can do the Reed Geek action.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-12-14 10:12
Wes wrote:
> + for Kdk's comments.
>
> Sanding a reed is only needed if it is too rough a surface or
> if it doesn't respond properly, in which case, selective
> sanding of a certain area can fix it.
>
> However, I've never understood balancing of reeds in the same
> way it is referred to in this forum and have never used things
> like ATG or Reed Geek. I sometimes do WTG with a knife. A
> piece of lathe tool stock can do the Reed Geek action.
Starting to discover and agree more that simply finding the right strength and just using the knife and sandpaper when needed is the best way to do it.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-12-14 23:44
Getting tired very quickly suggests to me that your reed is either too hard or just plain bad. Try a softer reed if another reed of the same strength doesn't solve the problem.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2016-12-15 04:58
I haven't used sandpaper etc for at least five years. I've found brands that fit my snout and my mouthpiece, and I learned to adapt. In hindsight, it's 80% head, 10% reed/mpc incompatibility and 10% bad reeds.
Keep adjacent strengths in your reed case, and a plastic reed for "bad reed days". If not even the latter works, don't push it, go out for a walk instead.
--
Ben
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-12-16 02:26
tictactux wrote:
> I haven't used sandpaper etc for at least five years. I've
> found brands that fit my snout and my mouthpiece, and I learned
> to adapt. In hindsight, it's 80% head, 10% reed/mpc
> incompatibility and 10% bad reeds.
>
> Keep adjacent strengths in your reed case, and a plastic reed
> for "bad reed days". If not even the latter works, don't push
> it, go out for a walk instead.
>
Yeah that makes sense. I remember hearing someone said that reeds today are a lot better, so there really shouldn't be much need to adjust too much.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2016-12-16 06:25
I'm with Burt, and not only in that we both live in Charlottesville.
I would not change any reed process while I was in the midst of an embouchure adjustment. I would be careful about changing reed strengths.
You have a major variable (your embouchure) that you are retraining. Of course you're going to have reed response issues. If the changes are significant, you are going to have endurance issues. Changing reed prep or reed strength may be tempting, but you're altering a second set of variables in addition to the embouchure adjustment.
Alter enough variables and you'll be lost when trying to determine whether your embouchure, your reed process, or your reed strength, is the issue.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-12-18 19:04
I have tried various reed rituals and found that the results are largely inconclusive.
I think the most the important thing is to initially wet the reed in plain water, only play for a few minutes at first, increasing the play time over several days. Use water, instead of saliva to wet the reed each time you play it and only wet the vamp or vibrating part. Rub it dry between the thumb and index finger (which also helps seal the pores) and let it dry for a little while, bark down, before returning it to a reed holder before it's completely dry.
I also balance the reed very early in it's life, using a sharp shop knife blade. Microscopic powder is usually all that is necessary to remove. I may polish the flat side of the reed with standard printer paper. The Ridenour system is better, but I've been too cheap to replace the one I gave away. In any case, good quality reeds nowadays don't need a lot of wood removed.
I've found the 56s are pretty well balanced and consistent and have had good luck with the Reserve Classic (on a Reserve X0).
The less you do to reeds, the better. Leaves more time for fellowship and good food.
Tom
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-12-19 10:05
TomS wrote:
> I have tried various reed rituals and found that the results
> are largely inconclusive.
>
> I think the most the important thing is to initially wet the
> reed in plain water, only play for a few minutes at first,
> increasing the play time over several days. Use water, instead
> of saliva to wet the reed each time you play it and only wet
> the vamp or vibrating part. Rub it dry between the thumb and
> index finger (which also helps seal the pores) and let it dry
> for a little while, bark down, before returning it to a reed
> holder before it's completely dry.
>
> I also balance the reed very early in it's life, using a sharp
> shop knife blade. Microscopic powder is usually all that is
> necessary to remove. I may polish the flat side of the reed
> with standard printer paper. The Ridenour system is better,
> but I've been too cheap to replace the one I gave away. In any
> case, good quality reeds nowadays don't need a lot of wood
> removed.
>
> I've found the 56s are pretty well balanced and consistent and
> have had good luck with the Reserve Classic (on a Reserve X0).
>
> The less you do to reeds, the better. Leaves more time for
> fellowship and good food.
>
Very interesting to hear. Rather different than some other rituals I've heard. However, I also like to wet the reed in water. I've always found that it plays a lot better!
I LOVE the D'Addario X0, however for now my teacher wants me to stick with the M15, which is fine, however I prefer the sound of the X0.
@Tobin
I see what you're saying, however I just wanted to make clear. So don't change reed strengths? I feel like 3.5 might serve me better and from there change one thing at a time.
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Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2016-12-20 21:36
If I can throw in my handful of cents:
It's really tough to guess what your teacher's intentions are. Sometimes teachers suggest something to correct other issues. I know that I tend to focus way too much on the suggestion and not enough on the actual goal. It could be that you're doing the same thing.
You do quite a lot with your reeds. I've tried lots of different methods and I think the most important thing is that you make gentle adjustments and find a method that gives you some sense of control over your reeds. The less you do is probably for the better but for those of the commenters who are worried about lost practice time- I think most clarinet players spend a fraction of the time with their reeds as double reed players do and somehow they still have time to practice.
My one tangible suggestion is to err on the side of softer reeds for most of your practicing in general. It helps relax the jaw and makes you focus your embouchure, imo. If you're in a transition with the embouchure, softer reeds may allow you to target your lip muscles and not your jaw.
Give any adjustments to your playing a few weeks. Let it settle before judging efficacy.
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Author: BrianLundberg
Date: 2016-12-22 19:48
I would try playing with a double lip embouchure. If it hurts me, then I am using a reed that is too hard.
Just one way to determine if your reeds are too hard.
I agree with the idea your reeds may be too hard.
Brian
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2016-12-22 22:13
It sounds as if your relationship with your reeds is pretty stressful, and a lot more so than it should be! All that sanding and your endurance problems suggest that you'd do better with something a notch softer. With the right strength and pattern of reed you should get a reasonable "out of the box" response from more than half of them, needing only limited incremental balancing/adjustment for acceptable results. Some will always need more work, but your experience suggests it would be worth experimenting with different strengths. Also don't forget that the positioning of the reed in relation to the end of the mouthpiece also affects its response, so there's scope for experimentation there too.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-12-23 00:41
It's been a little over a week since you first started this thread, so I'm wondering if by now the endurance problem has changed. Are you still tiring as quickly?
Karl
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-12-23 04:07
Great suggestions from all and info! Agreed I seem to be over complicating my reed process, so I'm starting to try to keep it simple, thanks!
@kdk
I haven't been able to practice for the past week due to a family emergency, however today I plan on practicing.
@BrianLundberg
That's actually fascinating to hear! My top lip does hurry a lot when I play, so that does lead me to believe that my reed is probably way to hard.
@JasonOlney
Thanks! I'll keep that in mind. Yeah a softer reed for practicing does sound like a good idea.
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