 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: efsf081
Date: 2016-12-05 05:53
One year ago, when I was looking for a new clarinet, the only mass product impressed me is the yamaha CSG, although finally I buy other clarinet.
I still want to know more about Yamaha CSG, especially it is the only mass clarinet with a German bore.
Are anyone sure CSG is straight bore? If you check the bore of upper joint, can you see a cutting ling nearby the register tube, which can been found on a Buffet R13?
Also, can you find a conical bore from the bottom of the lower joint? It is common on Ohler clarinet, and I find it on my yamaha 457-20 too.
"The smaller, German style bore design of this Custom clarinet provides a richer sound and larger spectrum of tone colors."
It is what yamaha said on their website. Someone studied and working in German told me that the bore of modern German clarinet is around 14.8-14.9mm. Which is larger than most France clarinet 14.6mm.
Thanks to any help.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-12-05 08:26
In a conversation with Ted Ridenour, he revealed to me that the Lyrique Libertas has little or no reverse taper in the upper joint and little undercutting. It might qualify as a quasi German bore (?). The instrument does have a warmer sound, but still with good center and projection. It's resistance is very smooth from note to note and register to register, with very good intonation.
Tom
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-05 08:55
I can't help you out until I know which CSG models you are playing on. The latest ones, the CSG-3 horns are pretty nice and I played several of the latest German reformed horns since the ClarinetFest last August. The new CSG 3's are hard to beat. Big bold sounds come out of the Bb and A horns. Not dark nor bright sounding, a straight bore for sure, with a lower left side low E key for tuning if needed. I hope these horns don't go away, because they are great and will fill any symphony hall with a fullness of sound. Every note is so even, no dead notes. For me it is the best new German clarinet I've played on. We are getting into bore issues again. Companies making bores too large, the Yamaha bores are about right, because the horns tune well and the sound projects.
I know I didn't answer your question regarding straight bores, but the CSG-3 horns I hope are here to stay.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-12-06 04:25)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-08 20:21
"German bore" might not be a very good descriptor. Schwenk & Seggelke, e.g., offers their German system instruments in a narrow German bore of 14.6, a large German bore of 14.85, and a Viennese bore of 15. The wall thickness varies as well. They also make French bore Boehm instruments, but their website doesn't describe the bore. You want to assume it's some kind of polycylindrical, but maybe assuming anything isn't such a good idea.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2016-12-09 00:31
Dorjepsimo -- do you know that the Yamaha bore is significantly different than another German instrument?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-09 02:10
No. Don't know anything about the Yamaha bore. I'm just pretty skeptical that the bores on German clarinets have some standard size or shape. Different people at different times seem to describe them differently.
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Author: efsf081
Date: 2016-12-09 05:33
I also think "German bore" might not be a very good descriptor. Why yamaha use this term?
I tried two Schwenk & Seggelke boehm before. In short word, it is a "perfect version" R13. A "R13" without the intonation, throat note problem. And still keep the ringing tone, quick respond and projection. A little warmer sound, but still a "French" sound.
Post Edited (2016-12-09 05:37)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-09 05:53
The CSG has the German barrel and top joint length proportions (and German shaped bell profile) in that it has a longer top joint and resulting short barrel, but the bore taper is still French.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-10 17:13
As far as I understand, the basic difference between a German and a French bore is that the German one is straight (or close to) all the way to just a few centimeters above the end of the lower joint, where it widens out to the bell. The French bore however tapers a lot more, sometimes starting already at the barrel (where the taper may go in either direction, widening or diminishing).
There are some exeptions to this, where some German bores may have a smal taper in the upper joint. However, I believe it's still closer to a straight one than any typical French bore. The most obvious difference may concern the lower joint which should be straight in a German bore (except the last few centimeters) but always is widening for most of the length in French bore instruments.
Otherwise, as stated above, the actual diameter of a German bore may vary a lot.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-10 17:18
Refering to my post above, and based on what Chris said earlier, the CSG doesn't thus have a "true" German bore.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: efsf081
Date: 2016-12-10 17:30
"German one is straight (or close to) all the way to just a few centimeters above the end of the lower joint, where it widens out to the bell."
It is exactly what I said in the original post. And I hope someone have the CSG can check about it.
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Author: ThunderingLight
Date: 2016-12-10 19:07
I currently own a CSGIII and I don't know much about the technical specifications like the bore size/diameter but I have to say the sound is very different from the R13 or even the Yamaha 650. I find the sound to be extremely deep in the low notes of the clarinet and the higher notes to be easily manipulated, either deep/full sound or shrill sound. The main outward difference with the R13 is that it has a ~10mm shorter barrel. To compensate, the upper joint is longer. This may be a "German" concept but I haven't actually tried out any German clarinets to be able to compare. To me it still feels like a French clarinet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-10 20:16
The lower joint bore on German bore clarinets starts to flare below the lowest (F/C) tonehole.
French bores start to taper much higher up - usually starting to taper below the F#/C# tonehole.
You can see this expansion if you look up the lower joint bore from the tenon.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-11 02:20
Yamaha made a TRUE REFORMED German clarinet but discontinued it. If you spot one on ebay, grab it. Reports say they play better than anything made now or in the past. So if you want that true German sound look often. The CSG in my opinion has a great sound, but it is not, nor even close to that German sound. It has a beautiful sound though.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-12-11 02:31
Yamaha's top Oehler models, 857II/847II are also very good!
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-12-11 03:00
re Bobs mention of the Yamaha Reform Boehm clarinet....
The former 2nd clarinet in the NZSO played one of these for some years (she studied with Dieter Kloecker) and she was interested in selling it last time we spoke (some months ago, but she also told me she "wasn't actively trying" to sell it so there's a good chance it's still available- the market being very small here in NZ). I played it in June, it was in good condition (needed some minor tweaks)... Boehm system keys with a throat B flat vent (NOT an exchange mechanism) and acton type vent... also the double f/c holes on the bottom joint (to compensate for the more cylindrical bore of that joint).
Let me know via email if you want to contact her
dn
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-12-11 03:18
If you google "Yamaha Schmidt Reform Boehm Clarinet" you will see a set of these for sale in England. The bore on the Bb is said to be "14.65 mmm." and the design is based on the Fritz Wurlitzer Schmidt Reform Boehm instrument. The seller says these can be played with a regular French clarinet mouthpiece.
Not sure if these are the Yamaha YL-856 and YL-846; instead, they may have been custom made.
Post Edited (2016-12-11 04:26)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-11 04:01
The YCL-856 (Bb) and 846 (A) isn't a true reform Boehm in that it has relatively plain Boehm system, but with a German bore. They call them 'German Boehm Clarinets' in their catalogue when they were first launched (the Oehler system 857/847 clarinets on the next page and the then new YCL-622 low C bass on the page after that).
Reform Boehms have some extra mechanisms on the top joint that the 856/846 lacks, but it has the Acton vent on the lower joint.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-11 04:05
I do believe Yamaha have made true reform Boehms to special order - the barrels have a socket and tenon on them, so all the joints had a socket at the top and a tenon on the lower end.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-11 05:13
What the heck is a "true reform Boehm?" I mean, in tech there are industry standards, so you can say for sure whether a server supports "true" TLS 1.2, but I don't think modern clarinet design works that way.
BTW, Clarinets Direct (http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/clarinets.html) is advertising the Schmidts, if anyone's interested.
Post Edited (2016-12-11 05:16)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-11 09:18
This is what I consider a true reform Boehm (click on link) - look at all the extra vents and mechanism on it compared to a Yamaha YCL-856/846 and you'll see there's a clear difference between the two:
Wurlitzer Reform Boehm (you'll have to copy&paste the link):
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,2874/FW%20Reform%20Böhm%200002.JPG
Yamaha 'German Boehm' (that's Yamaha's own description so don't shoot the messenger):
http://www.vzclassifieds.com/_content/items/images/67/4985167/001.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2016-12-12 09:56)
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-12-11 12:27
True that the Yamah RBs don't have the "full" reform Boehm keywork for forked C#/G#, and forked Eb/Bb... but it has all the other doo-wackies, and is a German bored clarinet designed to be played with a German mouthpiece (you CAN play it with a Boehm system mouthpiece but it's not very satisfactory). Given that German system clarinets come with a variety of keywork, it's surely the BORE that counts eh?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-11 14:44
Reform Boehm bores are even more German than German bores - they're cylindrical right to the end of the lower joint tenon, hence the vent hole in the bell.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-11 20:03
Chris, there's certainly a lot of momentum in that direction. I think Herbert Wurlitzer attributed the term and main idea to his father, and built on his work, and many of the other makers started out working for Herbert and stick to his basic design. At the same time, though, there's a lot that's arbitrary about that design, once you start looking at moving Oehler-type functionality over to a Boehm fingering. Why this vent and not that one; why a forked Bb and still keep the linkage? How essential are the separated C holes? And if a cylindrical bore and a late flair is "Reform Boehm," then English bore instruments are reform Boehms. Fritz W. could have trademarked the term and defined exactly what it meant, but he didn't. I just think the emphasis should be on what went into a specific instrument and why, rather than whether it's a true representative of a somewhat ill-defined category. The angels and devils are in the details.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-12 00:28
B&H 1010 bores also have the expansion in the lower joint starting just below the F#/C# tonehole, so they are still a Boehm system bore even though they're a whopping 15.2mm at the middle tenon.
Even the largest French bore clarinets in the form of the Selmer BT and CT and Leblanc Dynamic H and Pete Fountain with their 15mm bores are still very much a French bore instrument. Likewise with the older large bore Buffets from the 1930s.
The double RH F/C key pad cups are to vent (or effectively 'unfork') the G/D, so when playing that note, there aren't any closed toneholes immediately below the one that note issues from.
But A/E (xxx|xxo) is still a forked note as the Ab/Eb tonehole is closed between it and the G/D tonehole as is D/A (xxo|ooo) as the C#/G# tonehole is closed between it and the C/G tonehole (which the vent key on the LH3 ring on reform Boehms effectively deals with).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-12 02:02
As the term Reform Boehm is used nowadays among manufacturers, it includes three things concerning keywork differing from regular Boehm clarinets: 1) A double venting mechanism for the throat Bb, 2) double toneholes for low B/fis2 (the other one on the side), and 3) double toneholes for low g/d2 (or for the low f/c2 key, as described by Chris above).
Of course also the cylindrical, German type bore is another part of the concept.
These features are in all current Herbert Wurlitzer Reform Boehm models, including their "basic" model 188, as well as in the former 856/846 Yamaha's. I can confirm this since I have a set of those Yamahas, besides a Herbert Wurlitzer model 187.
Current Wurlitzers are somewhat different from the Fritz Wurlitzer clarinets shown in the link posted by Chris above.
Dietz is making a model they call "Hybrid", besides their Reform Boehm's and regular Boehm's, with only the double toneholes for the low f/c2 key but without the other stuff.
The barrel with both a socket (for the mouthpiece) and a tenon (for the upper joint, which have a socket on top instead of a tenon) is a special feature made by request, but I believe it's more commonly ordered on German system instruments than Reform Boehm's. Wurlitzer call this feature "patentbirne" (birne = barrel) and Leitner & Kraus call it their "V-model". The whole point is that making alterations to the bore in the resulting much longer bore of the barrel instead to a short barrel and the upper part of the top joint, doesn't risk a ruining of that upper joint. A barrel is cheaper to replace than the top joint ...
Micke Isotalo
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Author: kenb
Date: 2016-12-12 02:49
If you've not been there...
Sean Perrin interviews Sue Ryall on the origin and development of the RB and the experience of switching to RB. Ms Ryall is working on a doctoral thesis on the RB.
http://clarineat.com/page/4
Post Edited (2016-12-12 04:19)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-12 08:24
Chris & Micke
"The double RH F/C key pad cups are to vent (or effectively 'unfork') the G/D, so when playing that note, there aren't any closed toneholes immediately below the one that note issues from."
Thanks, I really appreciate the explanation. I guess it strikes me as odd, though, because I've never experienced G and D as problematic. I'm pretty sure the Oehlers I played (they are now with a former student) didn't have doubled C holes, so presumably the note was forked on them, too, and the notes just never seemed to be a problem on either French or German system. Some of the others, yes; throat Bb for example. It's nice that there are makers who let you choose what problems to solve with the extra keys and vents.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-12 09:55
All Oehlers and German systems will have the doubled F/C key fitted as standard - not only does it vent the G/D, but also has the 'Patent C#' mechanism fitted to make E-F# and B-C# or F#-G and C#-D trills very easy. Hold down the E/B key and trill the F/C key for the E-F#/B-C# trills and trill just the E/B key for F#-G/C#-D trills. Also makes playing in sharp keys without sliding the little fingers easier.
Yamaha's first version of the 856/846 German Boehm clarinets had the lowest tonehole (the F/C) tonehole moved to the opposite side of the joint compared to to standard Boehms to give the effect to the player of the German/Oehler tonehole placement as to where the notes F/C issued from, but the next version had the E/B key made as normal (in one piece) with the tonehole in the usual place. Maybe with such a short linkage and a two part E/B key of the original, they may have found the mechanism wasn't easy to keep in regulation or didn't feel as snappy as a single piece key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-12 11:55
Just a small clarification: In Germany/Austria the term Oehler is used only about German system clarinets with a finger plate instead of a ring for the middle finger on the lower joint. These are always high end instruments, since the Oehler mechanism is expensive to build. These clarinets also always have that double F/C key as well as that 'Patent C#' mechanism mentioned by Chris.
However, middle and student level German system clarinet are lacking the double F/C key (as well as the C# mechanism, of course).
The Austrian system never has an Oehler finger plate but a conventional ring, but here also only the expensier instruments has a double F/C key, but the less expensive ones just a single one.
Footnote: The purpose of the Oehler mechanism is just to make a better tuned forked f2 (XXX XOX), but usually that's well tuned also on Austrian system instruments.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-12-12 17:45
Chris,
I'm sure you're right about new instruments, but I got my Wurlitzer Oehlers in '74, and they were the basic professional model, as opposed to being one with everything; and as I said, I'm pretty sure they didn't have the doubled C holes. I looked at the pictures back then, and there were lots of possible additions my instruments didn't have, but you know, spec 5 salaries weren't astronomical. The thing with adding vents is that there's usually a price, beyond the one denominated in Euros. I like the action vent on 1010s, but the F - G trill isn't as snappy as it is on an instrument where the right-hand rings move together and aren't attached to a vent. It's a trade-off, especially for a really wonderful high Eb. All I'm saying is that it's nice for players to be able to choose which trade-offs they will and won't make. I mean, do other people here feel like full Gs and Ds are bad notes on the instrument?
Post Edited (2016-12-12 17:46)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-12 18:35
The vents for D/A (xxo|ooo) and A/E (xxx|xxo) will be beneficial to players who struggle to close the large toneholes for LH3 and RH3 - the toneholes covered by the fingers can be reduced in size if vents are fitted. Reform Boehms have the smaller diameter LH3 tonehole because of the vent on the LH3 ring, but RH3 is still a large tonehole due to the closed Ab/Eb tonehole below it.
But fitting a vent for A/E as well as an Acton vent to unfork the regular B/F# fingering (xxx|oxo and a better tuned short fingering for altissimo Eb) may make things a bit tight to fit all the mechanism in and also the extra mechanism only adds extra weight. I'm sure it's possible to make a fully vented Bb/A clarinet - maybe Rene Hagmann has even done such a thing. The Buffet Prestige basset horn is a fully vented instrument which he collaborated with Buffet in its mechanical design.
While flutes are fully vented, they still haven't got the correct venting of the 3rd register F# as the B tonehole should be open for that, but the standard mechanism doesn't allow it unless it's a specially made flute with extra vents (eg. Eva Kingma).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-12-12 21:41
If the Yamaha CSG was a German bore Boehm system clarinet, chances are it would have a vent hole drilled into the bell as the 856/846 has.
It's only the CSGIII that has the optional low E/F correction key that several makers of Boehm systems are fitting to their clarinets to bring them up to pitch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-12-12 22:25
No, the true Yamaha version I'm referring to has the same key work as the typical reformed looking clarinets. NOT the CSG 3 models or any of those. Do a google search.
This looks identical to the Wurlitzer - Oehlers with all of the added keys and the screw adjustments on the pads in the lower registers. A real work of art. I've been sooo tempted to buy one when I see them pop up on auction. Mainly now, after playing the new CSVR's. The horns are so much fun to play!
Again, keep an eye out for one. They are said to be really great sounding and very limited production, so they will hold their value and go up in value as the years go on.
Kind of like the old 1960's Buffets. You paid $250 for a clarinet in the 1960's. Some are going for $2000 and as high as $4000. The new Buffets drop in value just like a car once you leave the store.
Here is a story that few people know about.
Someone at Marks Music in Pennsylvania got a hold of some 1960's Buffets and they are selling new for a lot of money. $4000 or so. I guess he had several of them. By know I would think the best ones are cleaned out so don't mess with them. It's just a great story to share. Even itf you find that good one, you need a repairman that Master to adjust that horn to make it sound like what Marcellus and some of the others used. Hans Moennig was that Master. No one went to anyone else. He knew how to make these good horns great.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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