 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-08-04 20:42
In the August issue of The Instrumentalist, there's an excellent article by Onsby Rose, a former musician in the U.S. Marine Corps bands and a current doctoral graduate student at Ohio State. In the article, "The Battle Over Military Bands," Rose discusses his experiences as a military musician and illustrates the wonderful things military bands do. He makes a very strong case, and I agree with him. He ends by expressing his disappointment with Rep. Martha McSally and other members of Congress who favor additional cutbacks to military music programs.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/pentagons-bands-battle-223435
Rose correctly points out that the $437 million currently being spent on military bands is a minuscule percentage of the defense budget. Having said this, critics always like to find things to bring up, and they've pointed to expenditures of $33,000 for three flutes, $12,000 for a tuba, and $88,500 for a concert-grand Steinway piano.
I find it hard to believe that every military flute player is given an $11,000 flute since there are many great flutes that are less than half as expensive. I would also imagine that clarinet players aren't routinely supplied with $9,000 MoBas or $7,200 Buffet Toscas. For those of you who currently serve or have served as military musicians--by the way, thank you for the great job that you do!--are the critics misleading the public? Is it common for the military to purchase the elite instruments? If so, who receives them?
Post Edited (2016-08-05 00:55)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-04 22:04
Similarly with cutbacks in the UK military bands. Some bands still buy brand new Selmer SIII saxes when they have perfectly serviceable MkVIs stashed away in stores, downgraded for volunteer band use or go to auction that are in desperate need for overhauling which is going to cost a fraction to overhaul them compared to buying new SIIIs.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2016-08-05 01:19
I personally resent my tax money being used to pay for instruments that cost more than ten times what my own cost, to be used by people who are already being paid by more of my tax money to compete for some of the same gigs I would like to play.
Sorry, I'm not a huge fan of service musicians. I suppose military bands have their place, but for what I think they're needed for (playing parades and funerals and such) they could do just fine with student-grade instruments.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2016-08-05 02:05
From an ex-military guy. A half-billion dollars, a drop in the bucket for the entire military expenditures, is still half a billion dollars. I have no idea why that much money is spent on Military musicians.
Maybe I'm an outlier, but I never really cared or gave a damn about a military band playing when I came back to port. I was a whole heck of a lot more interested in getting off my boat and going to have a good time in the city.
For diplomatic events a military quartet or quintet makes some sense, but I'm sorry, I really don't think the military should be the largest employer of musicians in the US.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-08-05 02:14
How does a musician pass the audition without having a good instrument OF HIS OWN? Why is the military buying any instruments other than percussion?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-08-05 04:19
Burt wrote:
> How does a musician pass the audition without having a good
> instrument OF HIS OWN? Why is the military buying any
> instruments other than percussion?
>
Many Army musicians pass auditions on non-professional instruments (yours truly included). When I went through basic, I was issued underwear, socks, gloves, shirts, hats, rifles, etc. I owned my own socks and underwear, and yes, I can wear my privately owned socks and underwear with the uniform, but the Army MUST provide me with socks and underwear at least once because the Army requires me to wear underwear as part of my uniform. And yes, any personal underwear and socks I choose to use while in uniform and on duty have to meet the Army standard as outlined in our uniform and clothing regulations. After that, I receive a clothing allowance to used to replenish any one time issued items. The Army (like any other business) provides its employees with the tools necessary for their jobs. From Army pens and pencils, to clarinets. When I got promoted, the Army provided me with one full set of the new rank for each type of uniform. Any subsequent ranks or uniform parts are on me. When I received my very first award, the Army provided me with one complete set of that award medal and ribbon set). Any subsequent awards or if that ribbon needs to be replaced due to wear is on me. I think the ONLY items I wasn't "issued" that were required I can remember were a pair of running shoes, initial toiletries and a combination lock for basic training. But I was given an initial stipend to cover the purchase of that.
There are also many musicians I know that passed the audition out of high school on a rented school horn, or borrowed family horn. Additionally, there are a few musicians in the Army that I know that don't own their own horn. Like me, they auditioned and got into the School of Music on an intermediate horn. Once in the Army, they use the Army's horns and some of them chose to sell their personal horn as they only use the Army's horn on missions.
If I were to use my personal horn on an Army mission, any number of things could go wrong. For example, if it gets damaged, the Army will NOT pay any damages or help to fix it. They provided me with a horn and I CHOSE not to bring it, so they are under no obligation to fix it. I still have a perfectly good government horn to use. If I use my personal horn and (this is a stretch, but by regulation it COULD happen) it breaks and I cannot play the mission, and the mission fails because of my broken horn, I can get punished for it. If I use the GOVERNMENT horn and it fails, and I can prove through various paperwork that I have been maintaining it to Army standards (quarterly preventative maintenance checks and services, or PMCS for short), it is NOT my fault, the Army would NOT be able to punish me, and it's simply a bad situation of a piece of equipment that failed.
Alexi
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-08-05 04:29
Quote:
Maybe I'm an outlier, but I never really cared or gave a damn about a military band playing when I came back to port. I was a whole heck of a lot more interested in getting off my boat and going to have a good time in the city.
For diplomatic events a military quartet or quintet makes some sense, but I'm sorry, I really don't think the military should be the largest employer of musicians in the US. You may or may not be an outlier. It depends on the situation. I know in Iraq, there were definitely a whole heap of troops that were THRILLED when the Rock Band was passing through their little FOBs. It was an event to look forward to and they got to hear and sing along with live versions of some awesome songs.
I know I played a Dixieland gig as a young specialist to a reserve unit from where the Commander was from New Orleans in a deployed environment. She literally cried out of joy from hearing music similar to back home. As it was told to me by my supervisor (who she talked to), she was scared. She was a reservist, it was her first deployment, and rockets were coming in nightly. And when the band arrived and gave her a taste of home style music, it soothed her and gave her relief. Reminded her of back home, helped her feel she was going to make it, and she invited us to play monthly and she survived and her unit did well on that deployment.
I have also seen some great community relations with the band. One I loved was playing for a local elementary school's assembly on (Flag day? A Memorial Day ceremony? I forget which holiday) and finding out that my next door neighbor's son was in the audience. She saw me get off my motorcycle at home and said, "Did you play music at a school last week?" "Yup! Sure did!" "My son is driving me crazy! Your band is all he's talked about for the past week and he just keeps telling me how great you guys were and how cool it was that our neighbor plays in the Army band!"
Mark, I have no doubt that when you were a young sailor, you walked right past that band. But I'm willing to bet a bunch of folks appreciated that there was a band as part of a celebration to welcome them home. Just like I did out on the Tarmac for 3 months, 6 times a day, welcoming troops back from Iraq as they got off that plane literally days after getting off that plane myself (and having a backfill band play for OUR band's return was awesome!)
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-08-05 04:47
Quote:
I find it hard to believe that every military flute player is given an $11,000 flute since there are many great flutes that are less than half as expensive. Correct. That is not the case. I have a flute checked out and WWBW values it at $2300, brand new (it's a few years old).Quote:
I would also imagine that clarinet players aren't routinely supplied with $9,000 MoBas or $7,200 Buffet Toscas Correct. At he bands I've been to, buffet R13 or Festivals still dominate the Army Band market. Right now I have a buffet vintage for indoor playing and an R13 greenline for poor weather ceremonies issued to meQuote:
. For those of you who currently serve or have served as military musicians--by the way, thank you for the great job that you do!--are the critics misleading the public? Yup. Find the biggest numbers, put them on the front of a newspaper article. Classic journalism. Like we're buying grand pianos every year. Lol.Quote:
Is it common for the military to purchase the elite instruments? Nope. Of course, some instruments DO cost more than others for your middle of the road professional models (a bassoon can't be expected to cost the same as a flute or clarinet for professional quality). Quote:
If so, who receives them? I was able to play on a Tosca with an Army band. Twice. But those are the Army's horns. They belong to the Army. And if they are ever gotten rid of, they are turned in to be sold at auction, the proceeds of which go back into the Army's budget.
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
Post Edited (2016-08-05 05:03)
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2016-08-05 12:30
Military musician here. Instruments are replaced one at a time after their originally intended musical life. However, this is tax payer's money and we are NOT frivolous with it. For example, we play on Buffet Prestiges that are at least 15 years old and were meant to be replaced a few years ago. There's nothing wrong with them, so they haven't been replaced.
The Air Force also went from 4 bands to 3 last year. We're all busier than ever with no pay rise.
We have a boss who regularly has to justify our existence to those higher up, and the above examples are the measures he takes to keep us in a job.
When a small ensemble is used at a dinner event to entertain officers, it's not like that ensemble exists purely for that. It is made up of players from the band who could be spared that night from something else. And those players might have been in rehearsal all day, or perhaps they have just come off a nearby parade and have to change before making a run for their next performance!
The job has been very good to me, the above is not a complaint at all, I hope nobody interprets it as such.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2016-08-05 12:35
I also need to say this. We are fully trained in a war role. The training was horrible, and I imagine using this training in reality would be horrific. I hope that I and every other military musician has a long a prosperous career playing music.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-05 12:49
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The problem with the military is they consider instruments over a certain age as being worthless along with any other equipment that depreciates over time. So they're perfectly willing to bin off old MkVIs in favour of new SIIIs whereas a '50s MkVI will be worth far more than an SIII if it has been well maintained.
But when it comes to maintaining instruments, that's a bit of a lost cause as instruments aren't generally regularly serviced every year and only go into the workshops to be patched up whenever anything goes wrong, so only a few tiny repair jobs are carried out over the lifetime of the instrument which leaves it in a bad way.
There doesn't seem to be anything in place to put an instrument in for a service or a full overhaul and chances are if that's done by the on-site repairers, instruments are often returned in a worse condition than when they went in to be repaired. That's from my experience anyway.
I've overhauled a lot of older MkVI and SA80 saxes for one of the bands that were left languishing in stores plus I've done private work for players who own their own instruments and don't want them to go near the repair workshop.
There are still perfectly serviceable R13s from the mid '80s, but they're allowed to deteriorate and get downgraded instead of being rebuilt when they still have plenty of life left in them. Nearly every single Greenline clarinet bought for parade use has shed its middle tenon - sometimes as many as three times, but a well maintained wooden R13 will outlast them. But only if such a maintenance routine was in place.
While firearms and vehicles have to be kept in top form, it doesn't seem to apply to instruments and they take a lot of abuse, so they should be regularly serviced and there should be perfectly playable instruments in stores that can be signed out in the interim.
Attached are some photos of MkVI saxes that I've overhauled and ultimately saved from being downgraded or even scrapped and have gone back into the hands of musicians.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2016-08-05 13:09
In the RAF's defence, a lot of what Chris P described above is not prevailant in my band. When my instrument needs repairs or maintenance, I fill in a form and it goes off to my preferred repairer.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-05 13:13
If only the same applied across the board, then they wouldn't be wasting money on new instruments.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-08-05 16:38
This all somewhat amazes me. When I played in the U.S. Army Field Band during the Vietnam era, we played our own instruments and paid out of pocket to have them maintained.
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-08-05 17:32
When I played in the station band in the RAF in the early 60's we played our own instruments. The RAF supplied reeds, cleaning materials and had a fixit man available (me). The band did own some instruments, mostly percussion and heavy brass. these were loaned out as necessary. When the station closed the instruments were handed in to stores for disposal. I souvenired the Eb clarinet to save it from an ignominious fate. I still have it, a silver Buffet Albert system.
Tony F.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2016-08-05 18:56
Martha McSally is my Congresswoman and a retired Air Force A-10 pilot and Colonel. Last year, she sang (quite well) the Star Spangled Banner to start a Veterans Day Concert in Tucson.
You can Google "mcsally bands" and find a lot of stories describing her proposal. For example, see http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/06/16/military-plans-social-events-ban/85982178/
The under reported part of the story is the actual language she added to the Military Appropriations Bill:
"At the end of the bill (before the short title), add the following new section:
"Sec. __ :None of the funds made available by this Act may be used for performances by a military musical unit (as defined in section 974 of title 10, United States Code) described in paragraph (2)(B) or (3) of subsection (a) of such section." You can find these sections on-line with Google.
USC Title 10, Section 974, Subsection (a), paragraph (2)(B) defines the social functions military band play for that are mentioned in every news story about this matter. While in the military, she did not like military musicians being used to play background music at functions put on by Generals.
Paragraph (3) of Subsection (a), appears to cover many other things military bands play for. If this language stands, all those things are out. I'll defer to military musicians to tell us what band functions would remain if these changes were enacted.
This language is just her proposal. Apparently. the final language will be written by Congress early next year. (Assuming Congress ever returns from its perpetual vacation and does some work.)
George Libman
Tucson
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-08-06 01:16
Like Tony I played in the military (army) in the early 60s and I played on my own instruments. I used my new Leblancs for concerts and fair weather work but kept my spare B&H Emperor for playing in the mounted band.
And I seem to remember I was issued just 1 reed per month - and no choice in picking it either. Needless to say one had to top up from own funds.
50+ years on I still have the same instruments (Plus very many more collected in intervening years!)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-08-06 01:56
Reeds, cork grease, swabs were all bought at our own expense. As a matter of fact, once we left our Basic Training units, there was no more Army Issue underwear or socks, either. The uniforms were issued to us, I think one of each kind (we used three different ones depending on what we were doing and where), including one pair of dress black shoes. I honestly don't remember if we had a clothing allowance included in our monthly pay.
The Field Band did cost a fair amount in travel expenses - we were given a per diem allowance which, at its height during my 3 years reached $25/day, but we paid out of that for all our hotel and meal expenses. Still, tours were probably a fairly expensive proposition. But we were budgeted from the Office of the Chief of Information ("OCINFO") because we were considered a PR representative for the army.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-08-06 03:13
In the Minnesota 47th Infantry National Guard Band in 1950, I played my own Noblet Bb clarinet with the doubled F/C key in a white case. They had some good instruments such as Haynes flutes and Conn saxes, but it was common to use one's own instruments. I even played and marched in the St. Paul Winter Carnival Parade at 15 degrees F with my own metal clarinet which had ice in it after the parade. No one expected any maintenance from the band.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2016-08-06 04:19
Wes wrote:
> In the Minnesota 47th Infantry National Guard Band in 1950, I
> played my own Noblet Bb clarinet with the doubled F/C key in a
> white case. They had some good instruments such as Haynes
> flutes and Conn saxes, but it was common to use one's own
> instruments. I even played and marched in the St. Paul Winter
> Carnival Parade at 15 degrees F with my own metal clarinet
> which had ice in it after the parade. No one expected any
> maintenance from the band.
It's common for people to play their own horns even in today's Army bands. I use my horn most of the time (in fair weather condition) because I took the time to select what I thought was the best sounding horn. When the Army buys horns, it's lowest bidder and what we get is what we get. Another reason we buy professional horns. When I get my contract purchased, lowest bidder set of 4 R13s from Joe's Shop in Minnesota, at least I know that if I buy Buffet Festivals, I can rest easier knowing a certain level of quality instead of buying student models from lowest bidder sources.
But as said above, I expect no maintenance or help on my personal horn. So for the most part, I only use my horn in Army performances where I would be very exposed, and in a very controlled environment. Marching band, outdoor concerts, and any ceremonies consisting of marches and nothing with exposed Alexi lines, it's government R13 (or whatever the flavor is of the moment at the band)
Alexi
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2016-08-06 04:33
To everyone who has commented--thank you. You've really shared some interesting comments and stories!
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2016-08-09 06:31
I recently heard the CG band who knock out a new concert a week. I've played good and I've played cheap, and you can't do that the military bands do on the cheap. To me, the military bands are symbolic (of many good things) and I think they should have high quality.
In addition, they are employers for music grads.
And I did call my congress person urging $ support.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2016-08-09 10:46
In the UK the military were being issued with the most horrendously expensive top-of-the-range instruments and being instructed to place their current instruments in the skip. They would simply give the impression the instrument was going into the skip, remove it and sell it on that internet auction site! Bonkers.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2016-08-09 10:55
When and where was this Clarimad? These instruments are technically the Queen's property, nobody should be selling them for profit without permission.
We have links with the Cadet bands and also the Indian Air Force Band. Both, I believe, have received some of our unused instruments. In India in particular, they have next to no budget, we couldn't believe the state of the instruments they had to play on.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-09 13:10
That happened until the '80s (and possibly well into the '90s) when B&H were the main supplier of instruments and would destroy older instruments to keep up the demand and supply of new ones. So some bypassed the skip or were retrieved and either kept or sold on.
Keep an eye out on Ramco as they auction off ex military gear including band instruments - some people have bought early and late MkVIs there for around £400.
Around ten years ago spoke to a staff officer about why they buy so many new instruments in (such as SIII saxes) instead of overhauling older, perfectly serviceable and far more desirable MkVIs and his answer was 'the trainees want new instruments'.
Even though they have excellent repair facilities, they don't have the skilled repairers on site to do such work - they may be able to patch things up such as replace the odd pad, key cork or spring here and there, but they're not skilled in fully servicing let alone completely overhauling instruments and the musicians try to avoid taking their instruments to the workshop for any work.
If I was a trainee in the school of music, I'd much rather have a freshly and well overhauled MkVI instead of an SIII anyday - with or without a high F# key (although I prefer to have a high F# key on saxes as it does far more things than just high F#).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: greenslater
Date: 2016-08-09 16:12
To be honest, as a flutist firstly, I think $11000 is quite a reasonable price for a professional flute. A quick look at Flute Centre of New York shows an Altus 1207 for $12500. Whilst it's quite a decent flute it wouldn't be the choice of many pros. For example the Altus 1807 is quite a popular choice here for tertiary music students and teachers (ie people playing semi pro gigs) and comes in at over $17000. Clarinets are cheap by comparison.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-08-09 16:58
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The instruments I've seen issued by the band service are flutes by either Miyazawa, Muramatsu and more recently Altus (maybe some Yamahas in there too), but usually with a solid silver head and plated body instead of entirely solid silver. Piccolos are often Philip Hammig or Yamaha 62 or 82 series. Clarinets are usually R13s and Greenlines for parade use (and they often break due to the way they're held by just the top joint when stood at ease and the added weight of the lyre and march cards), some solo clarinettists have R13 or RC Prestige, some have Howarth S2 or S3. Oboes are mostly Howarth XL and S5 and bassoons are usually Fox, Schreiber or Adler. Saxes are mostly Selmers but there are some players with Yamaha and Yanagisawa (usually in silver plate).
To be honest, a decent student or intermediate level instrument will be good enough for parade use, preferably with stainless steel springs and screws as they won't rust when playing when it's raining or on a seafront bandstand. And pro level instruments are best suited for indoor concerts where conditions are more favourable for both players and instruments.
Talking to some retired musicians, they used to do basic repairs and maintenance to their issued instruments as it's part of their kit, so their instruments were inspected regularly during training. With silver plated instruments they have to be kept clean and polished, so older ones have a fair amount of wear to the plating and some have been replated.
Attached are photos of a tenor sax that was a former band instrument before and after I overhauled it. It had been replated, but the plating was very thin in areas and didn't always adhere well which is either down to bad preparation at the platers or due to scratches and moisture getting under the plating.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2016-08-09 23:14
I hold Military Band folk in high honor. They do their duty! I have a good friend, recently retired USAF clarinetist, with lots of great stories of endurance and service to the Country. I've written my Congressman/Senator about nixxing this horrible bill.
My hat's off to you Military Band Folk! Thank You!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-08-10 01:10
67 years later than the above post, I still play out in the weather with my MKVI baritone sax in a sort of military band, the LAPD jazz band. In May, we played an outdoor concert and it rained after we started, giving me a chill and a minor flu.
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