 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-18 09:30
I finally found a (volunteer) band to play with locally. Some of them even do Dixieland and traditional jazz! Tuesday is my first beginner level (group) band lesson with them. Needless to say, I'm trying to practice a lot to strengthen my embouchure. This is day 3 of serious practice. Today, I ventured over the break for the first time, and it's wearing me out! I find I have about 5 or 10 minutes of good control, and then my tone goes out the window. Please tell me this is normal. Will practicing an hour (with breaks as needed to let my muscles recover) hurt anything at this stage?
Also a question: my e (left thumb plus first finger - not sure what to call it otherwise) is distinctly more airy than the notes above and below. Is there a problem with my clarinet? With my embouchure?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-06-18 12:28
This is a perfectly normal part of embouchure development. We all go through it. Persevere and it will improve. Always allow the muscles ample time to recover, pushing muscles past the point of exhaustion will only make the development harder and it will take longer.
Tony F.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-06-18 17:03
I agree with Tony's comments. But if you have a private teacher (if not, a more experienced player in your group), ask him/her to look at your embouchure.
Are you squeezing hard to get a sound out of a reed which is too hard for you?
As for the note "E", check that there is enough clearance on the hole just below your index finger. Try rotating the bottom joint to disable the linkage between the joints, This will allow that hole to be opened further. Does this solve the problem? If so, see a repair tech to adjust the linkage.
Burt Marks
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2016-06-18 19:10
As for the "E", let a more experienced player try your clarinet. You should quickly learn whether it is a clarinet problem or a player problem.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-06-18 20:10
There are several things that could cause that E (E4 on the chart next to the title of this board) to play badly mostly having to do with the hole and its pad immediately below the LH index finger. The pad could be torn and obstructing the hole, the hole could have dirt in it, the hole could be undersized and need to be either enlarged slightly or undercut, or as Burt suggested, the bridge key could be out of adjustment and is keeping the pad too close to the hole. A good repair tech can adjust any of these problems in a few minutes.
Have someone else try the clarinet and find out how it feels to him or her.
Karl
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-18 20:47
My setup is Hite Premiere with Juno 2.5s on my old Noblet. It was completely overhauled (quality work) and is supposed to be in playable condition.
Yes, e4. ![[E4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e4.gif)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-06-18 22:08
awildman wrote:
> My setup is Hite Premiere with Juno 2.5s on my old Noblet. It
> was completely overhauled (quality work) and is supposed to be
> in playable condition.
>
"Completely overhauled" can mean many things, especially if it's charged at a flat fee instead of a rate based on actual shop time. Undercutting tone holes wouldn't likely be included in any overhaul, however thorough. If the tech stripped it down, re-padded (either completely or as needed), reassembled with appropriate cleaning and lubrication of moving parts, adjusted spring tensions and tested for leaks, that might have been done very competently without his noticing a problem with E4. An experienced clarinetist (as he may be) can humor a note like that without even realizing it and not consider it as much a problem as a less experienced player who hasn't developed that much flexibility.
It would be worth going back to him and asking if, now that the instrument is in good playing condition, there isn't something he could do to improve that one note.
Karl
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-18 22:56
The tech who did the work just got back to me. He said this is not typical for a well regulated instrument. He suggested the lower linkage padding might a bit too thick causing the upper joint pad to not open quite far enough. I'll play test at my next practice following Burt's suggestion and proceed from there.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-06-18 23:29
Well, I'm not sure about that explanation - the "lower linkage padding" is also open when you play E4, so can't be forcing anything closed on the upper section. But the *cork* on the actual bridge linkage might be too thick and that could push the pad below LH index too close to the hole - that might be what he meant. In any case, he's given you an opening to bring it back to him for adjustment.
Karl
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-19 23:36
Ok. I have clarification - and testing.
Testing: The note was much more clear after rotating the middle joint to disengage the linkage.
Tech clarification to my misunderstanding: The cork under the ring key of the lower joint is mostly likely the culprit. He said he thinks it was a .9mm cork, in which case we could try a .7mm cork to allow both lower and upper ring keys to open a bit further.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-06-20 04:48
Why didn't he just trim it to size? How did he let it out of his shop in the first place? I have some reservations about the ability of your tech.
Tony F.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-22 19:07
Is it normal for a beginner to be almost a full half-step flat? I found out at my first band lesson last night that I'm incredibly flat. When I got home, I played to a tuner for an hour trying to adjust my embouchure. Nothing seemed to make a big difference. For example, when playing a c scale, I could get the c mostly in tune, but when I play up the scale, d, e, and f would get progressively flatter. B and c above the break were closer to correct, but everything below the break seems flat. It's probably just me, but I'm worried about my equipment even more now.
Post Edited (2016-06-22 19:08)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2016-06-22 20:35
There are two easy ways to get an idea of how much of a problem is the player and how much is the equipment. (1) Have someone who plays well (or at least doesn't have the same problem you're having) play your instrument; and/or (2) play on someone else's equipment. See whether the problem follows the instrument or the player.
Of course, you can also consult a repair tech, which you'll need to do anyway if the fault is in the equipment.
The problem you describe sounds most likely to be rooted in the reed/mouthpiece combination combined with the accommodations you make in your embouchure in order to play on them.
But if you're really a half-step low, that's a lot for almost any equipment-based explanation - unless your Noblet is really an A clarinet.
Are you certain you're playing a Bb clarinet? If it isn't, it's hard to imagine the tech who overhauled it wouldn't have mentioned it. This is really an unlikely explanation, but worth being certain about. Is the barrel the original one that came with the instrument? What is its length (you might measure it by eyeballing it against a ruler or more accurately with a vernier caliper)?
Karl
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-06-22 21:08
When you have somebody try your clarinet, unless he also uses your mouthpiece, it's not a complete swap. My throat tones were very flat unless I used the 63mm mouthpiece from my backup clarinet. I opted to have my mouthpiece (M30) cut down 2mm at the tenon end, which solved my problem.
If your entire range is flat, it's probably embouchure or using an A clarinet.
Burt
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-22 21:25
It played the same on 2 different mouthpieces. Hite premiere and a Noblet mouthpiece(from a different clarinet). The clarinet itself is a Noblet Special. Whatever that means. Serial # is D3XXXX but otherwise has no markings. 1963 Orr '64, maybe.
I compared it with my Noblet Artist from the mid-80s when I got it. This clarinet is slightly longer, less than 1/2 inch, maybe only a 1/4 inch. and feels narrower. I figure narrower and longer would be a wash. I can get more specific after work.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-27 09:56
Tony, you're right. This seller/tech was dishonest/incompetent.
As it turns out, the horn is garbage. It plays 10+ cents flat, and nothing can be done about that. Oh, and the overhaul the seller did before passing this lamp off to me was complete naff. Improperly-fitted screws, loose keys, leaky pads, poor regulation etc. Looked good, but plays like crap. My local tech strongly advised not to do any work to it because it would still play flat no matter what. In fact, he basically refused to touch it.
I'm not about to name names, but the seller/tech has gotten some good reviews on this board. Caveat emptor.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-06-27 11:36
It surprises me that your tech has said that nothing can be done about it. I've always found Noblet instruments to be well-built and to tune well as long as the appropriate barrel is used. Have you tried a shorter barrel? If it has both joints serial-numbered do they both show the same serial number? Its a shame you don't live near me, I'm pretty sure I could get it playing right. What is the exact length of the barrel you're using?
Tony F.
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Author: awildman
Date: 2016-06-27 18:18
Tony, both ser# match. Bell and barrel appear to be original. Barrel measures just a little over 2.5 inches. Standard Noblet length. My tech did mention trying shorter barrels, but was not confident it would fix an intonation problem this serious.
The keys had been replated, so this has affected tolerances. Multiple keys/screws need to be refit so that there is no looseness/binding. Then pads need to be adjusted and everything regulated properly. There appears to be crack repairs in the upper joint-hard to tell. Maybe there are leaks in the body?
Is it worth doing all that work?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-06-27 19:21
Worth doing if you have the skills to do it yourself, but probably not if you have to get it done commercially. If the instrument is badly out of adjustment and regulation then this could go a long way to explaining your problems. I would have expected this to be sorted when the instrument was overhauled. I'd also see if any of the tone holes and the register vent are clear and not obstructed in any way.
Tony F.
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