 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-06-17 11:08
I'm currently exploring the German/Austrian system and have so far tried five different models from various makers (from mid to high price). Since I've played on Reform Boehms for years, I'm used to the more relaxed German embouchure. German clarinets are usually tuned to a=443 and I play in a=442, but a deviation of just one Herz should not in itself destroy the internal tuning of an instrument.
So far the following tuning issues have been common on all these instruments:
1) Despite the low e/f correction key these notes are still flat (around 7-14 cents). Probably at least the low e correction tonehole can't be moved further upwards, since it would otherwise come too close to the connection between the bell and the lower joint. But it that's the problem, why can't the bell just be made longer and the lower joint shorter?
2) Usually low f and f# are also very flat.
3) Also the throat tones, especially g#-Bb are really flat (some notes in some cases up to 25-30 cents). Since at least g# and a are lacking a double function concerning registers, wouldn't it be easy to make them spot on in tune?
Usually the whole second register have been well in tune and the altissimo can be played more relaxed than I've been used to. So my problems are in the first register.
I know some here are playing German system clarinets, or have been playing. What's your experience? May I bee doing something wrongly?
Thanks in advance.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: YT
Date: 2016-06-17 12:07
Hi Micke,
As far as I know, it isn't possible to get the lowest tones in tune because otherwise, the B' and c" would be to sharp.
From my experience with german clarinets (I am from Germany and play the german system, that's why my english is pretty bad, I'm sorry for that), the intonation of the throat tones has much to do with the bell and the mouthpiece you choose. If you have a well tuned clarinet, but your throat tones are way to flat anyway, try a different mouthpiece and/or a shorter bell. I know the problem of throat tones being to flat, when I changed my mouthpiece, the problem got way better.
Good luck with your instrument :-)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-06-17 12:53
Ok, I have heard some say the "A=443 thing" before and I still don't believe it.
The instruments I bought in 1984 (and sold in 2000) were pretty much A=445. The difference is huge. On at least one type I tried recently (F. Arther Uebel) the intonation could not be compensated before the internal pitch was distorted (that is, going note to note).
With my Wurlitzers circa 1984, I could use the longer barrel, pull WAY out, and the internal pitch was still pretty stable (no issues with the short tube notes being too flat compared with the long tube notes).
Here is what I recommend you try. Take your Korg tuner, adjust it's pitch to 445 and try your tuning tests again and just see what happens. My guess is that the pitch amongst the notes will even out considerably. I never had an issue with the low E and F being flat. With the bell pad open, those notes where spot on.
Also with tuning, you are MUCH better off tuning using your open G and/or your first space F. Tuning to third space C only, is just fraught with problems.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-06-17 13:27
Thank you for your answer, YT.
With one of the instruments I got very good throat tones, but as you suggested, with another mouthpiece than the provided one. However, I'm still a little bit puzzled why the provided mouthpieces seem to be so much out of tune.
It's right that the low e and f are inherently flat compared to the corresponding b and c in the second register (also on French clarinets, but more so on German/Austrian). But why then make a complicated and costly low e/f thumb key mechanism, but placing the extra vent holes involved so that those notes still remain flat? Why not move those vent holes just a few mm further upwards and get those notes spot on in tune?
I'm not complaining about that thumb key mechanism itself, which I regard as brilliant and something that also every serious maker of professional level French clarinets should provide, at least as an option. But why not adjust the vent hole placement, just a little bit?
Micke Isotalo
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-06-17 13:47
Thank you Paul, good to hear your comments.
As far as I understand, current German clarinets are made for a=443. Under Karajan the Berlin Philharmonics tuned a=445, and during that era also some clarinets where made for that pitch. However, after Karajan the Berliners returned to a=443, which still is the common level throughout Germany.
It's fascinating that your a=445 Wurlitzers played so well in a=440. I don't doubt it, but my current Wurlitzer Reform Boehms gets issues at a=440 (and especially with no air condition and a room temperature of around 30 degrees Celsius, or 86 F!). However, a lower tuned mouthpiece helps a lot (like the Wurlitzer 3CS).
When I tried an a=443 level with one of the current German system clarinets, the low e and f rose to being around 7 cents flat - but still flat.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: YT
Date: 2016-06-17 14:33
Hi Micke,
That's an interesting question I also would love to have answered as I don't have a clue why clarinet manufacturers don't make the hole a few mms further up...
On my clarinet (I play the Wurlitzer 100c model), the lowest notes are wonderful intonated, however the corresponding b and c are way to sharp. For me, it would be perfect if it was the other way around ;-) i'd prefer a well pitched c" over a well pitched low f.....
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Author: YT
Date: 2016-06-17 14:38
What I want to add: I played the Wurlitzer 3cs for a pretty long time, on my clarinet it worked pretty well for intonation. Now I play on a B2 by the german manufacturer Leitner&Kraus and for my clarinet and embouchure, it works even better and sounds great (and I don't have to do anything with my embouchure at all, it just needs lots of air, so it's pretty easy playing in my opinion...)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-06-17 15:47
By contrast, on my full Oehler system clarinets, throat tones are sharp if you do not use the fingerings with right hand (I noticed most professional players do). Other notes of my clarinet are very in tune. Could you list which brands and what models you have tried? Also could you tell us what reeds you use? 3cS mouthpiece is designed to play with V12 reeds and it is better to play LK mouthpiece with LK reeds.
Post Edited (2016-06-17 15:49)
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Author: YT
Date: 2016-06-17 20:17
Klose, on my full Oehler clarinet, I have the same "problem" as well, but in my experience, it depended very much on the mouthpiece I used... and Vandoren V12 or V21 work perfectly well on a Leitner&Kraus B2 ;-)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-06-18 02:02
Some thoughts regarding your tuning issues:
1. It's much easier to correct intonation downwards than trying to force notes to play sharper.
2. The length of the barrel affects the tuning of the shortest (throat) notes more than the longer notes.
3. Higher or lower pitched mouthpieces also affect the intonation of the shortest notes most.
If your throat notes are so flat (25-30 cents as you describe), but the other notes are more or less in tune, then it sounds like you're trying to play the instrument at a lower pitch than that at which it's internal tuning proportions are designed. You'll never be able to bring those throat notes high enough with your embouchure/voicing, but you might be able to bring other notes lower to some extent.
Try the instrument at a higher pitch (as Paul suggested), for which you will need either a shorter barrel, or a higher pitched mouthpiece. The throat notes problem at least should be resolved. What you will probably find is that the upper clarion register (from G sharp to C) will be a bit sharp. This is a more common problem of German-bore instruments which even the best players struggle with.
Your other option is to see if it is possible to adjust the instrument to play better in tune at your selected pitch. You are correct that theoretically it should be possible to raise the pitch of throat G sharp and A without effecting the tuning of other notes. Throat B flat will be a problem, but you could go for a double action key which functions both as register and B flat fingering using different holes.
Perhaps you should start with contacting the manufacturers and discussing these tuning issues to see what they can do for you.
Post Edited (2016-06-18 02:06)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-06-18 02:47
Hi YT, based on my experience, the intonation is generally better if I use German cut reeds with traditional German mouthpieces.
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Author: YT
Date: 2016-06-18 12:50
Hi Klose, thanks for the tip! What are your experiences regarding german mouthpieces designed for german clarinet with french reeds, as the B2 of Leitner&Kraus or Kückmeier, for example?
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-06-18 13:37
I sometimes use Playeasy B2 German version but I feel in addition to some minor intonation problems, the sound of some notes are not so good and the dynamic is not as wide as the German-cut-reeds mouthpieces. Nevertheless, due to this relatively smaller dynamic, the intonation is usually more stable thus there is less need to change your embouchure to sustain the pitch. (e.g., playing from pp to ff). I only have 3 such French-cut-reeds mouthpieces (other two are Wurlitzer) so my experience may not represent the general trend.
P.S LK B2 also has a German version?.
Post Edited (2016-06-18 14:19)
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Author: YT
Date: 2016-06-21 02:09
That's interesting, because in my experience, the french-cut-reeds mouthpieces are more variable in terms of dynamic as they are more open than the mouthpieces for german reeds. Good to hear experiences other players have made :-)
Indeed, Leitner&Kraus make a german Version of their B2 model. I play the wooden model, they call it "Linea Verde", and on my opinion it is really great, far better than the Kückmeier B2, to be honest... maybe it is worth a try for you ;-)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-07-07 17:51
Sorry for a long delay, but here comes some updates and additions.
First, I notice from the Schreiber website that their clarinets are made for both 443 and 445 Hz (probably long and short barrel), so the 445 level on German clarinets obviously isn't as obsolete as I assumed.
The clarinets I've tried so far is an Uebel Austrian (Bb), a Schreiber full Oehler (Bb), a Leitner & Kraus Austrian (model 350, in A), a Leitner & Kraus Oehler (mod 320, in A) and a Martin Foag Austrian (also in A).
By the way, the smoothest, fullest and least vibrant overall sound I got with the Foag, with an Austrian mouthpiece (a Maxton HH) and Pilgerstorfer Concerto reeds.
The intonation of the Uebel and Schreiber I didn't test in detail since their overall sound wasn't what I was looking for.
The intonation of the Austrian large bore (typically 15 mm, on the Leitner & Kraus Austrian 15,5 mm) is said to be more tricky than on the traditional smaller German bore. I didn't find too much difference between the L&K German and Austrian models, but on the Foag the whole first register is quite flat (the whole second register is very good also on that one, especially with the Maxton mouthpiece).
As suggested and as an experiment, I also tried a 445 level. The throat tones rose by about 10 cents, but they were still 14-28 cents flat. The rest of the first register were 10-20 cents flat on that level.
Then the other day I tried a Buffet Divine and a Yamaha CSGIII (both in A), trying to keep changes in my embouchure and voicing to a minimum between notes and registers as in my previous tests, and guess what? Also on these clarinets the whole second register were very good, but the first register were similarly flat as on the German/Viennese horns! Especially on the Divine which was 11-24 cents flat from low g to third line Bb, while the Yamaha was only between 13 cents flat and 2 cents sharp at the same range. However, throat tones were better compared to the German clarinets, especially on the Yamaha with just +/- 2-5 cents (the Divine was 12-19 cents flat). The latter wasn't so surprising, since these horns are made for a 440-442 level.
Concerning the lowest notes, the CSGIII was with the thumb key, but low e to low f# were still 9-18 cents flat (and for some reason the low e was stuffy in sound with the thumb key, but not without it). The Divine was 21-27 cents flat on low e and f#, and "only" 15 cents flat on low f using the extra key for that note.
The tests on the CSGIII and Divine I did with a Vandoren BD5 mouthpiece, a Vandoren 56 3,5 reed and a tuning level of 442.
Should I stop blaming the makers of German clarinets? Or should I start blaming the whole industry?
My current Wurlitzer Reform Boehm's aren't perfect in intonation, but I don't have this kind of marked difference between registers. The trouble notes on these are just d# to f at the first line, which are really flat (up to 30 cents) and thus requires special fingering. But other notes are within about 5-7 cents, up or down and in both registers.
To be sure not to make unconscious corrections learned from years of playing on a certain instrument I also tried to keep the tuner on a fixed level and correcting each note according to that. I really had to work hard with the embouchure to get up the intonation in the first register, getting a rather pinched tone quality. To me that confirms that I'm at least not just playing unconsciously flat in that register.
Comments? Suggestions?
Micke Isotalo
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2016-07-07 19:59
Micke, based on my experience, the Vienese instruments are really different from German instruments and they usually require different mouthpieces, reeds, embourchure etc. Thus in my opinion, maybe you would better focus on only one type of bore to try? Also to my knowledge, recent RB instruments from Wurlitzer are usually considered to have some intonation problems thus, probably, you really unconsciously correct some notes. To me, I mainly play Oehler, but when I tied Viennese instruments in combination with Vienese mouthpieces/reeds, at first, I even could not play a scale, after a while, I could but the inotation is like playing a clarinet at the first time.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-07-07 23:05
Liquorice had the best advice. You need to tune the "lowest" notes to be IN TUNE with your embouchure being as comfortable and neutral as possible. Then you just have to bring the higher notes DOWN ......... much easier; doable.
................Paul Aviles
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