Advertising and Web Hosting on Woodwind.Org!

Woodwind.OrgThe Clarinet BBoardThe C4 standard

 
  BBoard Equipment Study Resources Music General    
 
 New Topic  |  Go to Top  |  Go to Topic  |  Search  |  Help/Rules  |  Smileys/Notes  |  Log In   Newer Topic  |  Older Topic 
 Oiling
Author: fuzzystradjazz 
Date:   2016-02-28 02:15

I know this topic comes up a lot "should I oil, or should I not? - (I'm guilty of bringing the debate up before too). However, this time, I simply would like advice on how to proceed with oiling a specific instrument.

I have an old high-end customized Leblanc (grendilla) clarinet which hasn't been oiled since at least 1987. The instrument was played heavily from 87-1992, and then put in storage till around 2000 and played heavily again until roughly 2008. It was then put in storage and will likely remain in storage for several more years.

For the curious: In the early years I was ignorant that clarinets needed oiled, and in the more recent...I haven't been convinced that oiling helps - and I've been fearful that adding oil to an ancient "never-oiled" instrument might introduce problems or change the nature of the clarinet.

My question for the techs out there is: Given the history of the instrument, and given the fact that it will likely remain unplayed and in storage for several years looking forward - is oiling recommended? If so, how would you suggest undertaking a task given the above information, and how often (after the initial oiling) would the clarinet need oiled while in storage?

Thanks,
Fuzzy

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2016-02-28 02:48

While inert in storage it wouldn't need oiling. But I'd choose the storage spot wisely, not too hot, nor too damp, nor too dry, not too far away from fresh air.
The sock drawer in your bedroom, or somewhere in your closet would be a good place. No basement, no attic.

Whether or not a service is advised before committing the instrument to storage is a controversial topic. Experience says it'd need another service once it comes out of storage, and common sense says it should be in some kind of "storage shape" before you store it.

For my friends who ask, I say re-oil twice a year, in places where the wood is ragged most - in the bore. A "damp" oil rag through the bore, and you should be good until the next service interval (say, every two years).

But that's my personal opinion and experience, others may beg to differ.

--
Ben

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2016-02-28 03:35

No need to oil before storage, but good idea to do it once instrument comes back into use again.

A litle key oil applied to the keywork and spprings prior to storage is also worthwhile (not a full "service").

Ben's comments on storage location spot on but would add that instrument should be sealed in a plastic bag during storage to prevent the "bugs" getting to and eating your pads, especially if in your sock drawer!
I've only ever known this to happen when instruments are stored and not when in regular use.



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2016-02-28 03:43

Norman, I don't know your sock drawer, mine is clean. :-)
I would advise against sealing the case in plastic because that's where mold starts.

Maybe storing some peppermint tea bags in the case will deter Norman's sock lice?

--
Ben

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Ken Shaw 2017
Date:   2016-02-28 05:55

Run a dry swab through the instrument a couple of times. If the bore is shiny, there's no need to oil it.

And why not put a monthly reminder on your smartphone to get it out and play it for a while?

Ken Shaw

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2016-02-28 09:12

My oiling suggestion is pretty straight forward. Take a hanky swab lightly damp with bore oil. Run through the joints once or twice to get a wet sheen. If by the next day there is no evidence of bore oil on the surface of the bore....repeat. You do that (day to day that is) until there is still evidence of oil on the bore surface the next day....then you don't have to try again for another month or so.




..............Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: fuzzystradjazz 
Date:   2016-02-29 00:43

Thanks for the informative responses!

It sounds like the consensus is that as long as the instrument is in storage, that no oil will be needed.

I like everyone's idea about just running a swab through the instrument with bore oil once I remove the instrument from storage. Is there any possibility (given it's history of no oil in the past 35 years) that doing so will make the inside swell while the outside remains ridged though (possibly causing a crack)?

Our humidity is roughly 15%, so mold isn't a concern. Also, I've never experienced any type of bug or mite here. For storage, I'm pretty lucky with the climate provided by this region.

Ken, there's two main reasons I don't take the clarinet out and play it (even though I'd love to):
1. I find it difficult to play Boehm right now...and it is Boehm.
2. I've been fearful that by putting it in a cycle of play/storage, that it might be harder on the instrument than if I were to just let is "stay dry"  :)

Thanks again for the answers (keep 'em coming if there are other thoughts or questions/explanations!)
Fuzzy

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2016-02-29 02:34

Have no fear - oiling the bore will never make it swell.
Grenadilla is extremely hard and the oil will only penetrate a microscopic amount.

Cracking is mostly caused by hot moist air being blown into a very cold instrument which is also why if an instrument cracks it almost invariably either the barrel or the top of the upper joint that is affected.

Cracks lower down the clarinet can be 99+% attributed to mechanical damage e.g. being dropped or sat on. In 60 years of playing and 25 of repairing I have never personally seen a temperature crack anywhere other than barrel or top joint.



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Johan H Nilsson 
Date:   2016-02-29 03:03

Norman Smale wrote:

> Have no fear - oiling the bore will never make it swell.
> Grenadilla is extremely hard and the oil will only penetrate a
> microscopic amount.

Not sure everyone on the forum will agree. There is some evidence for the penetration effect. It can be observed by weighing the wood before and after the oiling or by putting some traceable substance into the oil.

http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=419727&t=419651

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Ken Shaw 2017
Date:   2016-02-29 03:56

I guess it's time to repeat the Hans Moennig story. For many years he kept a block of grenadilla immersed in oil. Whenever any one asked whether a clarinet should be oiled, he pulled the block out of the oil, shaved off a paper-thin slice and showed the questioner that the oil had never gotten below the surface.

Ken Shaw

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: JHowell 
Date:   2016-02-29 07:29

In my section, with over 120 years of collective professional experience (sort of a guess, one member is retiring this year after 50 years), NOBODY uses bore oil.

An instrument that has been stored a long time will need to be broken in like a new instrument, with gradual lengthening of the playing sessions. And it may crack, or not, but bore oil will have nothing to do with it.

Instruments crack in cold weather, because of dryness of air, rapid changes in temperature, or a combination. Humidity and temperature, important. Bore oil, red herring.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2016-02-29 16:37

I don't want to be impertinent (no, really), but if dry air can cause a wooden clarinet to crack, one would have to ask why that is. And if moisture in the AIR is important, then...............


You see where I'm going with this.



But I do agree that if you are not playing the instrument (and having the associated condensation pour down the thing all the time) you don't need to worry about oil maintenance.


As for Hans Moennig, you only have to look at "Silversorcerer's" images of re-introducing oil to the wood over time, to appreciate the difference oil makes for wood. I don't know why Moennig would have taken an anti oiling stance, but one thing you CAN say about that storied block of wood: not a drop of condensation was going to get into it either. And for me that is the important part.






.......................Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: The Doctor 2017
Date:   2016-02-29 18:23

Disclaimer - I make a plant oil based bore oil and reclaim natural Grenadilla oil for sale.
It is amazing to me that in today's world and being surrounded by so much scientific progress that many disproven old wife's tales still persist in the community.

To oil or not oil is a personal choice. Scientific evidence however proves that there are some mixtures of plant oils that will penetrate Grenadilla wood the thickness of a clarinet body. It is also a fact that the oil in Grenadilla wood buffers the gain or loss of moisture from the wood. Moisture and oil can be lost from Grenadilla wood under drying conditions and this will change the overall shape of the wood as Naylor has shown. Since parts of your clarinet come from different trees the wood will gain or lose moisture and oil at different rates in each piece due to tree to tree differences.

Boring large holes close together in a piece of wood invites cracks to form and these can come from either internal stresses in the wood or external forces exerted by mechanical force, heat and cold, moisture imbalances, and perhaps a myriad of things that we cannot understand.

There are at least 300 technicians world-wide that are customers that use my oils and probably thousands that use some form of bore oil in their work on instruments. Good bore oils will not turn rancid and are fine left on wood in storage for years.

This will not sway groups one way or another but your technician should be your guide but please just do not repeat debunked stories and unscientific approaches.

L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com

P.S. Hans Moenig just used the wrong oil

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Micke Isotalo 2017
Date:   2016-02-29 19:47

When oiling my clarinets intensely with the same method as described by Paul above, the oil eventually starts visibly "bleeding" from the outside. Touching it with a finger confirms that it's really oil, not just moisture from some tonehole. No oil has been applied to the outside of the body, only the inside. So it definitely penetrates, all the way through. When the body is fully saturated like this, bleeding will increase when the instruments get warm.

By the way, I use a Recorder bore brush for oiling my clarinets as I find it convenient and it's also easy to control both the spread and the amount of oil with it.

Micke Isotalo

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2016-02-29 21:20

Micke,


I am curious about the what you describe. I only recommend a light coat on the inside (one day at a time). With this method I have never experienced any bleed through.


So I wonder: What type of horn do you have? How old is it? Does it seal like a drum during a leak test? Is the bleeding you describe all over (like a sappy tree) or just out of some specific point or points?







..........Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Micke Isotalo 2017
Date:   2016-02-29 22:07

Paul,

My horns are Wurlitzer Reform Boehm from 2002, no cracks and they seal properly.

The bleeding occurs at a few specific points, but when I notice it I cut down on the oiling. Have thought that perhaps some pads could become damaged otherwise.

I have never seen any bleeding on the barrels, only on the top joint. Can't tell for sure if it concerns both the Bb and A-clarinet, but I think so.

Perhaps it could be linked to some irregularity in the composition of the wood, but don't know for sure. Quite fascinating however that air can't go trough where oil can.

Micke



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: frenchbow44 2017
Date:   2016-02-29 22:49

"Regarding Bore oil, I’ve done some testing, and you may be surprised to know that it doesn’t help. I left a clarinet barrel soaking in bore oil for A YEAR, sawed it in half, and it hadn’t penetrated that wood at all. Not one little bit. It was slippery though."

I saw this on Michael Lowenstern's earspasm website.

http://www.earspasm.com/omega/should-i-buy-an-amati-bass-clarinet/

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2016-02-29 22:54

Micke, would you share what kind of oil you are using? I'm thinking of the Doctor's post; some oils apparently penetrate more than others.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Micke Isotalo 2017
Date:   2016-02-29 23:57

The latest oil I have been using is labelled "Selmer Bore Oil No. 2935", before that I used cold pressed linseed oil bought from a health product store. The latter is thicker than the previous, but anyway I got the same results with bleeding with both.

Micke Isotalo

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2016-03-01 02:18

Micke,


Well, that's a new one on me. I'm glad to hear there is no air leakage. Personally I would want to oil particularly in this case so that condensation is not what follows that path.




...........Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Micke Isotalo 2017
Date:   2016-03-01 20:02
Attachment:  Bleeding Clarinet.jpg (142k)
Attachment:  Wiped clean Clarinet.jpg (134k)

I induced some bleeding today and took the attached picture (first picture, look at the centre). In the second picture you can see that same area wiped clean. Interestingly it's a particularly "nongrainy" area of the body. One could expect a "leakage" appear at a seemingly less solid part of the body.

To me it's obvious that oil is absorbed into the body. Anyone could try Paul's method by putting on a thin layer, even daily (perhaps over night, well ahead of your next playing session). In a clarinet that hasn't been oiled for long that first coating will disappear rapidly, probably in just a few minutes.

The next layer could of course be applied right after the first one has disappeared, not necessarily waiting for the next day.

The longer this treatment goes on on a daily basis, the longer it will take for that coating to disappear. You will also notice that it disappears more rapidly on the barrel and top joint compared to the lower joint. To me that indicates that those parts of the body has been more "diluted" by moisture, since moisture builds up more at the top of the instrument than at the bottom.

Since oil doesn't evaporate in these conditions, this disappearance is proof for me that it has been absorbed into the wood of the body. In a similar treatment of a plastic or rubber clarinet that coating will of course just remain - at least until it's wiped clean.

When that thin coating of oil still remains to the next day, I would consider such a clarinet as "saturated". As Paul said, I also would prefer a clarinet saturated with oil rather than water and saliva.

By the way, I friend of mine believed that a bore still wet of oil improved the sound. I agreed as long as my clarinets still had remains of the lacquer coating that Wurlitzer applies on the bore of new clarinets, to prevent cracking. However, after that lacquer was polished away it wasn't as apparent. However, on other clarinets with less polished bores such an effect could perhaps be more imminent.

Micke Isotalo



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2016-03-01 21:43

Ha, that Selmer Bore Oil No. 2935 has been mentioned on this board before as being unsatisfactory for oiling clarinets due to it's being completely different than the wood's natural oil. It is a mineral oil, not a plant oil. Yet it would appear to penetrate well into the wood of Micke's clarinet. Would that not indicate that the oil is doing what is wanted?

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2016-03-02 00:30

Dear Micke,



Thank you for the dramatic images! Very interesting.






............Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Micke Isotalo 2017
Date:   2016-03-02 12:22

Dear Paul,

My pleasure :-)

A side effect of keeping a clarinet well oiled is that it increases the buildup of dirt in the toneholes, which thus has to be cleaned more often.

I've also noticed a residue of a light, almost white powderlike substance appearing especially on the edges of toneholes where they meet the bore, as well as the edges of the bore itself at the ends of the joints and inside the barrel. Same phenomenon with both the mineral oil based Selmer bore oil, as the vegetable linseed oil. Seems to be some kind of leftover from the oil, but don't know what it is. It doesn't appear just by the oiling itself but when the oiled instrument has been played and exposed to moisture, and then left to dry.

Thinking more about the bleeding I'm quite sure it appears only when playing and when the instrument thus gets warm. The oil that has come out then stays on the outer surface when the instrument cools down, without being sucked in again :-)

Micke Isotalo



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Jeroen 
Date:   2016-03-02 14:54

I oil several times a year with a recorder oil and a recorder bore brush.
Only a thin layer and wiped clean after a night rest. Barrel and upper joint do clearly absorb some oil then.

The sound improves also but this improvement dissapears after a few days.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Dibbs 
Date:   2016-03-02 16:06


I've never seen bleeding before but in your situation I think I'd be tempted to go back to using the linseed oil. It's a drying oil so it should eventually turn to resin and block whatever pores it's managing to bleed through.

Just a thought. No doubt someone will come along now and tell you never to put linseed oil anywhere near a clarinet.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2016-03-02 19:28

I see this as a unique example of an end result. I doubt if anyone would have a number of examples like this to say what to do with certainty.


However the "oil" idea is there to prevent "WATER" from taking up the same space (water representing quicker and larger changes in wood expansion and contraction). Given that, as long as there is oil along the path (whatever that path may be), I think you are better off.




.............Paul Aviles



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: fuzzystradjazz 
Date:   2016-03-02 22:01

It is my understanding that linseed oil doesn't "dry" or evaporate, but oxidizes. Perhaps this is the cause of the white-ish buildup?

Fuzzy

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2016-03-03 01:27

Linseed oil DOES dry, It was the base of most oil paints produced over several centuries which were designed to build up a thick film of protection over the wood.
Exactly why you don't want it in your bore.



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: fuzzystradjazz 
Date:   2016-03-03 01:54

Norman,

Sorry for offering an incorrect understanding. Would it be correct to say that linseed oil drys by oxidation instead of evaporation? I've read a lot about wood finishes (non-instrument related), and I know somewhere along the way I came up with this apparent misunderstanding about linseed oil not "drying." I've used boiled linseed oil on many wood projects, and my experience seemed to (evidently wrongly) enforce the idea in my head that linseed oil didn't "dry" like paint or lacquer, but chemically changed during oxidation, to form a barrier.

I'd appreciate any information you might point me to which would help clarify my confusion on the topic.

Thanks!
Fuzzy

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2016-03-03 04:19

Fuzzy,
I don't claim to have the chemical know how to answer you on this (my early training was in electronics and physics rather than chemistry) however it probably does come down a bit to semantics.
Linseed is classified as a "drying oil" however the process of drying is linked to the effects of oxygen or polymerisation I think it's called so yes it doesn't really just evaporate like water but the end effect is that it dries and hardens.

I guess my point is really around the fact that you don't want something that is going to harden and form a thick film on the surface of the clarinet bore.



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2016-03-03 04:25

African Blackwood does absorb, both mineral oils and natural oils. I remember my first overhaul of a wood instrument. First, I shrunk the socket rings so they were tight. After oiling I couldn't assemble the instrument. I had a similar case last year with a gentleman who used vaseline as cork grease.

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: fuzzystradjazz 
Date:   2016-03-03 04:38

Thanks Norman. In researching linseed oil after reading your earlier post, not only did I find it labeled as a "drying" oil, but I found out there's a much bigger difference between linseed oil and boiled linseed oil than I had previous known. I appreciate you bringing it all to my attention. I agree - probably not the best thing to put on/in a clarinet.

On the other hand - does anyone know if some of the other "clarinet" oils oxidize instead of evaporate? If so, could this possibly explain the "block of wood" soaked in oil, but never absorbing it? (Just a thought)

Steve: Yeah, I've seen the Vaseline as cork grease too. I've even known someone who used it as a thin coat (externally) on clarinets they've overhauled to "make them look nice" too! It did make them look nice, but I'm not sure if there were ever long-term repercussions.

Fuzzy

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Micke Isotalo 2017
Date:   2016-03-03 11:35

Steven: Just out of curiosity, what was the problem caused by Vaseline used as cork grease? Did it cause expansion of the wood of the corresponding socket, despite the metal (or carbon) rings preventing such action? Did it even crack the wood?

Micke Isotalo

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2016-03-03 17:28


> Steven: Just out of curiosity, what was the problem caused by
> Vaseline used as cork grease? Did it cause expansion of the
> wood of the corresponding socket, despite the metal (or carbon)
> rings preventing such action? Did it even crack the wood?

My explanation is that it swelled the wood in both the socket and tenon. The metal tenon constricted any outward movement of the wood, so all the swelling was towards the tenon

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2016-03-03 17:39

Regarding linseed oil. It mildews very easily. I have experienced this many years ago in a clarinet that I oiled and left in a closet for a while. I oiled the clarinet when I was at repair school and used an oil formula there containing linseed oil. I have also experienced mildew on a piece of furniture I finished with linseed oil.

Linseed oil is used in woodworking because it is a hardening oil - it polymerizes to form a hard or semi hard coating. It really has no advantages for oiling a clarinet. Some other oils have the same property. I know walnut oil is semi hardening. I believe that almond oil is not a hardening oil. I haven't reviewed this information for many years - I hope I'm getting this all correct. Omar may have more accurate information.

Some oils also go rancid more easily.

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: The Doctor 2017
Date:   2016-03-05 18:12

(Same disclaimer)
My view is that you should not seal the wood. Boiled linseed oil will polymerize over time and form a water impermeable membrane. Raw linseed oil will remain a sticky mess on the wood for a long time. I feel that the wood should be allowed to breathe, this is, absorb and let moisture evaporate which will keep a near constant moisture balance in the wood. This only happens if there is a natural oil (either from the Grenadilla wood or plant based oil mixtures which act in a similar manner as the natural oil) in the wood and the pores remain open.

I use plant based oils because they are designed by nature to interact with water forming hydrogen bonds and the oils thus hold moisture in the wood until drying energy overcomes this bonding and water can be lost from the wood. It takes little energy (overcoming the energy of hydration) to add moisture but a large amount of drying energy to remove the last of the moisture attached to the oil. Petroleum based oils (the majority of clear mineral oil bore oils sold in the marketplace) do not interact with water and actually displace water and the natural oils in the wood. The wood actually becomes more dry when using petroleum based oils. Although it may (usually only because there are volatile petroleum distillates in the bore oil added) soak in it does nothing for the structure (which it actually breaks down over time) of the wood or the moisture holding content of the wood.

As Steve points out the organic oil used must have antioxidants added to prevent autoxidation (turning rancid) and Vitamin E does a poor job. Other powerful natural plant derived antioxidants can keep oil useful for years.

I feel that if you seal the wood that eventually some areas will become worn which allows moisture to enter. This causes tremendous hydrostatic pressure gradients in the wood - some dry, some wet, which may be the casual agent for cracking.

I do not believe in over oiling the wood. Adding thin coats of oil with overnight standing will eventually leave unabsorbed oil on the surface (either bore or outside) which indicates that the wood has absorbed enough oil. For demonstration it is interesting to see that oil completely penetrates the thickness of the instrument but this is not necessary or desirable. One should aim to maintain a balance of oil similar to the virgin wood (however stabilized over time).

L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Tony F 
Date:   2016-03-05 18:28

Vaseline used as cork grease can cause problems because the mineral oil in it can degrade the adhesive used to secure the cork. This is particularly true when contact adhesive has been used. I've seen instruments where the glue broke down leaving the cork intact but loose on the tenon, and this can really be a problem when disassembling, as the cork slides on the tenon and jams the joint.

Tony F.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Micke Isotalo 2017
Date:   2016-03-07 13:34

Key question to me is what kind of treatment or what kind of oil gives the best protection against moisture-induced decay of the wooden body of a clarinet - not so much what's most "natural", what's most effective in regulating the humidity level of the wood, etc. Another question of importance is of course possible harmful side-effects.

Anyone having any hard facts about this?

In my experience the first obvious long term moisture-induced decay will appear on the upper end of the tenon of the top joint, as well as at the lower end, which gets visibly discoloured, porous and eventually even more or less rotten (that's of course also why some clarinet makers uses metal covering here, though it's effectiveness could be questioned).

Since those tenons seem to be the most vulnerable parts, I have lately got into the habit of smearing some cork grease not only on the cork but also on those wooden end parts of the tenons of the upper joint. Can't tell for sure about its effectiveness, or even possible harm to the wood :-) , but I hope it reduces the amount of moisture penetrating the wood. I do this besides more or less regular oiling.

Another question: Any opinions or hard facts about bore oil with Silicone? Silicone is water repelling, which at least in theory could increase the effectiveness of a bore oil with it. It also seems that at least pure Silicone or Silica is considered as non-toxic for humans. Recently I bought a bottle of "La Tromba Special-oil for Woodwind Instruments with Silicone", but haven't started using it yet. Should I perhaps get rid of it as soon as possible :-) ?

Micke Isotalo



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Clarineteer 
Date:   2016-03-07 16:07

I trust an expert chemist and that is why I only use The Bore Doctor oil.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2016-03-07 17:25

If bore is of any value, then silicone might negate that benefit by taking the place of it. I have had instruments where the wood structure is "weak". I don't believe there is a great solution. After treating with oil, you might use bees wax on the tenons and sockets. Buffet treats their clarinet bores with wax at the factory. I don't know what kind.

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: The Doctor 2017
Date:   2016-03-07 18:04

(same disclaimer)
Moisture induced destruction of the wood matrix happens when there is too much water in the wood. Intact Grenadilla wood can survive submerged in water for years without damage as long as the natural oil balance in the wood remains nominal.

The criteria that I use for choosing a bore oil is that it mimics the qualities of the natural oil in the wood and does not absorb too much moisture and does not further displace the natural oil in the wood. In my experience and testing this requires a mixture of plant oils and strong plant derived antioxidants. The oil in Grenadilla wood has a pretty strange fatty acid composition and the oil has antibacterial and anti-fungal properties too which make it unusual in the plant oil world. The only oils that fulfill these criteria are plant oils since they evolved as oils in plants that interact with water and keep the balance within the plant. Petroleum based oils or silicone repel water and also displace the natural oils in the wood. Eventually they break down the wood structure and matrix.

Buffet uses wax on the burnishing rods that smooth the bore after the reaming process. This wax which is heated by abrasion does end up in the bore but it is not a treatment that they use separately on the bore.

L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2016-03-07 20:01

So, dumb question, why not market Grenadilla oil as bore oil?

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Nobody 
Date:   2016-03-07 20:54

[Content deleted]

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Nobody 
Date:   2016-03-07 21:34
Attachment:  049.jpg (158k)

[Content deleted]

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2016-03-07 22:35

"Keep in mind that all wooden clarinets are oil saturated when they are new. The wood is processed in a warmed oil filled vat under pressure . . . . "

What kind of oil, do they say?

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Nobody 
Date:   2016-03-07 23:44

[Content deleted]

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2016-03-08 00:27

All wood clarinets are not oil saturated when they are new.
I've personally participated in the making of many hundreds of clarinets and not one was oil saturated.
I know that some mass manufacturers "process" the wood during making possibly to overcome the limitations of mass making where they cannot afford the time or cost to properly season the wood at all (or any) stages.



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Nobody 
Date:   2016-03-08 01:28

[Content deleted]

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Nobody 
Date:   2016-03-08 01:28

[Content deleted]

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Nobody 
Date:   2016-03-08 01:42

[Content deleted]

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Nobody 
Date:   2016-03-08 01:51
Attachment:  Ed Mueller instructions.JPG (387k)

[Content deleted]

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2016-03-08 03:37

I don't believe that Buffet oils their clarinets. I did see a Selmer movie that showed this.

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2016-03-08 04:31

To answer David's queries I worked for many of the past 25 years with one of Europe's leading handmakers of Boehm system clarinets.
The wood used being African blackwood (grenadilla) containing it's own natural oils.

One major difference I suspect between our system and the mass makers was that the wood was carefully and naturally seasoned for many years before even taking the first cut.
Then after a rough profile and pilot bore put in many more years of seasoning were allowed.
Subsequent opearations were then made in very small increments over several more years with the wood being allowed to relax and stabilise between each operation before a final reamed bore was made.

My personal view on oiling, based on 60 years experience of variously owning/playing/making/repairing clarinets, is to use a regular oiling routine varying based on the age, history and usage of the instrument.

The proprieter's views, equally based on many years of performance and making clarinets, did not support regular oiling.

So, as history of posts on this board on this subject shows, it's horses for courses.



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Micke Isotalo 2017
Date:   2016-03-11 12:54

Before throwing away my bottle of bore oil with silicone :-) I wonder if there is some evidence that the silicone sticks to the wood?

And if so, is there evidence of that being harmful, and if so, in which way?

This is by no means any evidence, but I just noticed that this German clarinet maker (Harald Hueyng) has the same "La Tromba" silicone bore oil bottle in their pictures about recommended oiling procedure (German text): http://www.hueyng.de/tipps/oelanleitung/

On the other hand, I'm aware that silicone sticks to paint and similar covering, but paint is of course very different from wood.

I also found some articles about wooden artefact conservation using silicone oil, which is labelled as an irreversible treatment, indicating that the silicone actually sticks to the wood. However, the procedure is quite different compared to the oiling of a clarinet bore, involving complete dehydration of the artefact as well as vacuum treatment. As an example, see http://nautarch.tamu.edu/CRL/conservationmanual/File6.htm#Silicone%20Oil%20Treatment

If the silicone in bore oil sticks to the wood of a clarinet, I also wonder to which extent it does so and for how long? And also, considering the water repellent effect of silicone, if remaining silicone even could be beneficial?

Micke Isotalo



Reply To Message
 
 Re: Oiling
Author: Nobody 
Date:   2016-03-11 17:27

[Content deleted]

Reply To Message
 Avail. Forums  |  Threaded View   Newer Topic  |  Older Topic 


 Avail. Forums  |  Need a Login? Register Here 
 User Login
 User Name:
 Password:
 Remember my login:
   
 Forgot Your Password?
Enter your email address or user name below and a new password will be sent to the email address associated with your profile.
Search Woodwind.Org

Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

The Clarinet Pages
is sponsored by:

For Sale
Put your ads for items you'd like to sell here. Free! Please, no more than two at a time - ads removed after two weeks.

Instruments
Retailers and manufacturers of clarinets, both modern and early replica

Service
Instrument repairs, restorations, adjustments, and overhauls.

Miscellaneous
Services and products too varied to categorize! Repair, recording, news

Events
Major events especially for clarinetists

Accessories
Accessories that every clarinetist needs - reed makers and shapers, ligatures, greases, oils, and preservatives ... and more!

Reeds
Great reeds available from around the world

Music & Books
CDs, Sheet Music, and some of the greatest reference books ever written!

Mouthpieces & Barrels
Fine makers of mouthpieces and barrels, from wood to crystal to hard rubber and plastic

 
     Copyright © Woodwind.Org, Inc. All Rights Reserved    Privacy Policy    Contact charette@woodwind.org