 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-19 21:25
Havent concerned myself much with pitch so long as notes sounded good but now I wish to. Have CA-1 Chromatic KORG tuner set at 440 which is small but readable with two red lights to sided of a green light. WHen I took some lessons on Yamaha YCL-250 teacher kept saying I was flat, in general. Now I have a Buffet E11 with a Lyre 13 88 replacement mouthpiece. Playing on M.Lurie Premium 2.5 and Rico 3 reeds and practicing clarion notes which are a bit harder than lower register.
Any suggestions on a procedure for practicing, testing, playing,mproving pitch using the tuner? I do not play professionally or with anyone, but only select songs to learn that I like and think would sound good on clarinet, a Bb instrument. SO far I ony check pitch occasionally if need arises but I think I could do more than just that, in order to improve.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-12-20 02:05
First off I believe it is so much better to adjust your sound to a fixed SOUND. So for the main portion of your tuner practice, set the SOUND and note you want, then play with it, and match it. If you are completely unfamiliar with finding pitch, you may first want to get yourself in the ballpark by briefly using the meter.
Ok, that said, your open "G" should be your tuning note. You should be right in the "middle" of your embouchure comfort zone with the open "G" being well in tune. Check other notes of course. I'd try the "Gs" an octave below and an octave above as well as the "C" on the second ledger line above the staff to make sure you are in-tune across your range. When checking your range in this way, also do this check with the meter. The higher notes are harder to hear correctly and the meter will keep you closer.
Now, I would also suggest you play scales (slowly; listening carefully) with the tone generator set to the tonic (ie. set to concert Bb and play your written "C" scale.....etc.).
Good luck!
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-12-20 03:35
You can use the tuner to find a setup (mouthpiece + barrel) that:
1. targets various pitches, like 440 or 442 Hz
2. optimizes the relative tuning within the instrument
There are lots of mouthpieces and barrels...
Of course you can play and try to feel what combination is best, but there is nothing that beats numbers and a systematic approach.
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-21 02:44
Been practicing open G and scale notes. Mine seem to be in green but swing to + or - 20 on either side. Do experienced players stay exactly on pitch all the time or does it vary by +/1 20 cents? I can hold pitch on single note but if change I have to adjust. What am I striving for?
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-12-21 03:10
You're always striving to be able to change the given pitch of any note up or down to the pitch you want it to be at. A general rule of thumb, and a good way to practice, is to play every note in tune with a tuner at all dynamics, but this won't always be what you're doing in all practical circumstances:
1) In a large ensemble, you play out of tune, but you play out of tune together. If your bass gives a fundamental that is particularly flat or sharp in the middle of a piece, the entire ensemble will have to adjust accordingly. I know you say that you aren't really playing with other people, but it's important to know that pitch is always flexible and variable.
2) In any given harmonic contexts (if you're playing with a piano, to a recording, or in an ensemble), your pitch is going to have to be altered depending on the function of the note you are playing. The only majorly important relation to develop an ear for is the interval of a major third (which needs to be played very flat to sound in tune with it's lower fundamental), but major and minor sevenths (and seconds), minor thirds and diminished fifths all will sound better if you develop the ability to bend your pitch up or down to really melt the note you're playing into the underlying harmony.
In terms of melody, if you aren't worried about how your notes are tuning to other notes being played simultaneously, a tolerance of +/- 5 cents is very good and most ears can't discern much of a sense being 'out of tune' if each successive note you play is around or under that tolerance. It's always better to be a bit sharp than a bit flat, unless you are trying to give the music a bit of a melancholic or seasick quality. It's much easier to tell if a note is flat than sharp, especially in the high register, and playing something a few cents flat can definitely give it a nice 'pained' quality, but dipping 10 or 15 cents flat just makes it painful.
But again, more important than the ability to play the notes in tune with a tuner is to become your own tuner and develop the ear to know if your note needs to come up or down in pitch, or hopefully to be played right on the money because you've voiced the note or the interval in your head before you play it.
Post Edited (2015-12-21 03:14)
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Author: BGBG
Date: 2015-12-21 04:16
This helps a lot. My practical experience is zero since I play only for myself, so I needed some guidelines.
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Author: Jim22
Date: 2015-12-21 07:11
I would recommend you purchase the root tracks of "the tuning CD", which you can find on Amazon for download as MP3 files. Play longtone arpeggios and scales for each key around the circle of fifths against the root tone for the key. The root tone, 3rd, and 5th of each arpeggio should be easy to hear, but with practice you can hear the other intervals as well. You are listening for beats between the note you are playing and the tuning tone. You are trying to synchronize the tones and eliminate the beats.
Jim C.
CT, USA
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-12-21 16:34
On the subject of tuning, do you play a third differently depending on whether you're playing with tempered instruments (eg. Piano) or untempered instruments?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-12-22 00:02
There are some pitch CDs and examples out there floating around. I bet you can find one free for download on the internet.
I prefer to tune open G, and then clarion G (pullout at at the barrel for open G if necessary, and middle joint if necessary for clarion G)
In response to "Jonthereeds"
The interesting thing about intervals is in order to tune them as perfectly as you can, you actually have to raise and lower individual notes based on the INTERVAL, not necessarily the "note". Google "Just Intonation" to read a ton of stuff about it.
For example, if playing in our key of "C", to play a well tuned E above it, you have to lower the E in pitch (can't remember how much, I think it's about 14 cents). If you're playing a major second above it (C and D held out), you need to raise the D in order to help the ear to really hear the dissonance as two separate notes and not allow it to be heard as a grossly out of tune unison or minor second. In order to play a well tuned perfect 5th above it, you would need to RAISE the G a few cents. As the intervals get wider and wider, it's harder to really "hit it", and really less able to be distinguished. So play a C and an E one third above it, the lowered E will be much more noticeable than playing an E an octave and a third above it.
It makes my brain hurt sometimes, and it depends on a lot of factors, and realistically, it's impossible to perfect the amount of "cents" you are above or below. Espcially when considering who knows whether the person with the root is spot on or not. Who has the root? What key are we in? What interval above the prominant note am I? Did the key change during this part? Is the person playing the root 1/3 below me even in tune?
I don't think about just intonation that much except for exposed lines, typically at cadance points, and when I can hold out a note and it's more apparant.
So personally, I don't think about it all that much. I can't. My brain can't comprehend as I'm playing where I'm at in the interval, in what key, etc. etc. But during sectionals or rehearsals, when the group gets to a held note, an exposed chord, the final note, or anything else where we really feel the tuning needs extra attention, we will take time to "tune the chord". So we play the line moving into the chord and then allow anyone playing the root to play. Then whoever has the third will add on. Fifth, 7th, 9th, whatever else there is. And we will lower or raise each pitch as necessary to have the best tuning chord. At that point, I will know and remember if I had to raise or lower my pitch (compared to what I would NORMALLY play), and simply right an up or down arrow above the note to help me remember to raise or lower that pitch when I get to it. It's not perfect, but it works pretty well. We just ask the root to stay put and not adjust to us!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-12-22 05:17
Quote:
It makes my brain hurt sometimes, and it depends on a lot of factors, and realistically, it's impossible to perfect the amount of "cents" you are above or below. Espcially when considering who knows whether the person with the root is spot on or not. Who has the root? What key are we in? What interval above the prominant note am I? Did the key change during this part? Is the person playing the root 1/3 below me even in tune?
I don't think about just intonation that much except for exposed lines, typically at cadance points, and when I can hold out a note and it's more apparant.
Thank you for this post! I find that the people who are the fussiest about just intonation (i.e. "The third of a major triad needs to be 14 cents lower"--read in nerd voice) often have the worst pitch. Tuning, as I see it, is a confluence of issues, which include the horizontal and vertical domains of music as well as tonality/functionality.
While we like major triads with the third lowered a tad and the fifth slightly raised, we don't hear chords as independent unities: they're part of a collection and behave according to their place within this larger whole. The tonal system and a chord's/pitch's function within the system make demands on our hearing.
Take, for example, a C major triad. As per the poster QualityControl above, the third (an E) needs to be lowered (though I'd hate to hear him play with a pianist if he is in fact shooting for purely tuned chords with an equally tuned duo partner). But if I supply a tonal context and make that C major chord a dominant of F, our E wants to rise slightly because it's now a leading tone. Then, if I resolve the dominant into an F chord but suspend the E, it becomes a seventh and wants to go down because our ears want to hear all sevenths fall.
Therefore, if a C major chord progression goes: I - V7 of IV - IV7, and you the clarinetist are holding that common tone E, you would have to play several different E's, depending on its place in the chord and its place in the key. Of course, if that common tone E were an important melodic line, it might sound weird to vary your pitch.
There really isn't a way to reslove all these conflicts (i.e. "Do I favor the melodic line? The note's place in the chord?" etc.) . I'd advise you, therefore, to not stress about just intonation, functionality, etc. Practice ear training as well as playing with a tuner, and as your hearing improves, you'll intuitevly make good decisions.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2015-12-22 07:08
For the OP. Some of what is said above will make better sense with the following...
A tuner (unless you have a really fancy one with different "temperaments") is set up like the piano. The piano is tuned to "equal temperament" which means that it's slightly out of tune. A tuner tells you exactly what the pitch would be on the piano, which is very close to what you want, but not exactly. The only notes on a piano that are in tune are the octaves. All of the "A"s are in tune with all of the other "A"s. All of the "C"s are in tune with all the other "C"s, etc. However, none of the "C"s are in tune with any of the "A"s, or any other note. They're all close enough to sound ok, but not perfectly in tune. The reason for this is that if they were perfectly in tune, you couldn't play in all 12 keys. If the key of C Major sounded great, other keys would sound bad, so they make a compromise with all keys. None of them are perfectly in tune, but they all sound the same and are acceptable.
Why this is relavent:
When you are playing a wind instrument in a group, you aren't tuning to "equal temperament" or any other "temperament". (Although most people call it "just temperament".) Ultimately, it's whatever sounds right at the time.
So, that's why the suggestion of practicing a scale with the root sounding is a great one. You learn to tune the individual steps of the scale to the root. This teaches you to play perfectly in tune in one key, something a piano can't do.
A tuner is great for keeping you close. It will tell you if you are way off, or very close. You can use it to compare one note to the octave above it or below it. You can also use it to see which notes on your instrument are "out", and whether they tend to be flat or sharp, and if it's a lot or a little. However, it's not at all necessary to try to make all the notes dead on with a tuner, because you don't play that way in real life. Not to mention of course, that you won't always be playing exactly at concert pitch, A=440. Sometimes the whole ensemble is sharp or flat.
To hear a good example of purely tuned fourths and fifths listen to Renaissace vocal ensembles like "The Hilliard Ensemble" or "Tallis Scholars". Listening to good recordings of smaller orchestras will help with thirds, and major and minor keys, like "Academy of St Martin in The Fields", or "Musica Antiqua Koln". You can actually feel it physically in a group when you are in tune.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2015-12-22 07:16)
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