 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-11-22 05:26
As a high school player who is working very hard to constantly improve myself, and audition into an exceptional music program, I've been stuck in my mind on what separates the average clarinet tone (one that is not bad by any means, but doesn't make anyone shift eyes when they here it) from an exceptional tone that accomplishes the opposite.
Where I live, there is not much opportunity to see WORLD class players around. That leaves me with 2 options, which are the players at my local college, and recordings. While recordings are great and all, they don't truly give me the sound the a REAL tone would.
What I've discovered over time as I've gotten better is that a real tone will obviously sound very different to the player, the person next to him, and the audience member "x" amount seats away. To me and those around, there may be some extraneous noise (air, spit, etc.), however those that I'm playing to will get just a pure round clarinet sound. My problem is, I can't fully tell if I do have that round, pure, "american" "dark" (etc.) sound. I've done everything I can to make sure I do have that sound including LISTENING, Long Tones every day, recording myself to critique, using reeds that both are good, and fit my mouthpiece, and lastly (and least importantly) an R13 and Gregory Smith mouthpiece that I chose after going on a mouthpiece goosechase between essentially every Vandoren in existence.
That leaves me. I'm essentially positive that my embouchure and air support are in great working order (wrapping around, not constricting reed vibration, constant air stream, high tongue position) and yet I still FEEL as though I don't sound like the recordings of those around me. I still as though something is off. Whenever I listen to recordings of myself made on my phone, there is never anything inherently wrong, but it never sounds as nice as recordings of other players.
In the end, I guess I just wanted to ask all of you (both pro, and amateur players), when you're listening to someone, what really does set their tone apart from the rest and turn your head? And how can I work even more to achieve that? How do you know when you've gotten there?
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Author: Alex K.
Date: 2015-11-22 05:44
I think you may be too hard on yourself. I'm STILL that way, after playing for 5 years and getting into AllCity Philadelphia
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-11-22 06:42
I think it's pretty subjective as to what's a head turner in terms of tone. Kind of like asking to quantify a beautiful woman
I will say this, though: a lot is written (and said) about a flat chin, tight corners, proper air support, throat shape and a well-poised tongue - and these are super, SUPER important, to be sure. But IMHO, what separates the women from the girls and men from the boys is the upper lip. Strive for incredible upper lip strength.
And I must agree with Alex. You're likely being too hard on yourself. And relying on a phone recording probably isn't helping. Recording yourself is crucial to developing a great sound, but you should invest in a proper microphone/recording set-up to do so.
Post Edited (2015-11-22 06:51)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-11-22 06:47
First off you are still growing. Your instrument setup is fine. R13 clarinets are great and I know Greg Smith well. A wonderful kind man that studied with perhaps the very best clarinetist in the country, Bob Marcellus. Bob had a beautiful sound and anyone that studied with Bob also had an amazing sound, because he wouldn't accept you into his college program. So stay with your present setup and don't change it.
I have to ask what your age is and how much do you practice per day?
The next question is how do you warm up when you start to practice? This is KEY to developing a nice sound.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-11-22 08:54
I will definitely say that most conscientious effort you have to make is in the air support category. Send the air through the instrument faster, feel the column vibrating under your fingers. Without the air there is nothing there. Always push the air harder.
A proper embouchure and an appropriately shaped oral cavity are very, very important, and a good reed matched to a good mouthpiece help a lot, but you're nothing without the air.
Tone and musicality are also very intertwined. Don't get too caught up in a good sound at the music's expense, keep listening to as many other people play (even other kinds of music and other instruments) to really live deeper in the music.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-11-22 09:07
Air, air, air, air, and air. Long tones, long tones, long tones, and long tones. Try using the tonal energy app on the iPad and make the blue bar have absolutely no jagged edges: completely straight.
I remember a friend of mine telling me said that Gilad said, "Learn to play loud and beautiful before trying to play soft and beautiful." So try all your long tones FFF with the tonal energy app.
I usually like to do chromatic long tones OR the David Weber long tones. Or what Jonathan Gunn told me to do:
1. Set the metronome to whatever speed you can play a one octave E major scale up in one breath. From low E to middle E
2. Wait for 8 counts thinking about what you sounded like
3. Start from middle E then go down the same way
4. Then go from middle F same thing
5. Then the G above the staff same thing
I also like to do the Breathing Gym before my practice. To learn how it should feel to play the clarinet.
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-11-22 09:38
To reply to Bob,
Currently I'm 15 (getting ready to turn 16 in January), and at the moment I average about 5 hours or more a day (Including rehearsals, without them about 3-4 hours).
When I pull out the horn I start with long tones going from clarion E-B-chalmeau E-B-Low E in wholes at 72. Then I add on a note at the top of the repetition (IE: C-F-E-B-E-B-E to F#-E-B-E-B-E). Each time I do this I focus on one aspect of playing, while retaining the other (Air Support, tongue position, embouchure control, relaxed fingers). From there I move onto scales, using multiple different methods, and finally end with some articulation warm ups (Focusing on minimal tongue movement and contact, as well as keeping air pushed the whole time).
One could say "You're only 15, don't worry too much", but I refuse to accept age as a limit to how good one can play.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-11-22 11:06
Amazing, but none of my several legendary teachers seemed to worry about tone.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-11-22 11:14
If you can play a very simple piece slowly, and people (especially fellow musicians) congratulate you on how lovely it sounds, you've probably got great tone
Two aspects underlie tone: Control, that you get through technique and practice; ears, that you refine and use. You play, you listen, you control your sound to improve it, you listen etc.
I used to be a chef and to cook well you have to taste, taste, taste. With music we have to listen, listen, listen. That's why practice is important because the less we need to think about the mechanics, we more we can think about the sound and the connection with the audience
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-11-22 12:24
Exiawolf, thank you for your reply.
You are doing the long tones which is great. Can I suggest to forget about the metronome and start with low E. Start softly, get increase to forte and back down to ppp. All in one long single breath. When doing this it should take maybe 30 seconds or longer at time goes on. After doing this judge yourself and ask yourself what sounded better, getting loader or getting softer, and why. Do this to open G, then go on to the middle register. Keep the notes in tune, listen to the quality of the sound. If it's wrong, don't go to the next note. Also hold the note at MF as long as you can. This will build up your embouchure. At first your mouth will be tired. By the way, even the advanced sym pros still do this, maybe not everyday, but they surely test their sound, often looking in a mirror.
In the orchestra rehearsal today all of the stings were buzzing around all over the place, but the horn section, lower brass, trumpets, french horns were all warming up with long tones. Kind of interesting. Some for 30 minutes. These brass players were taught well. Listening for that right sound. Repeating the notes if they weren't happy with. They must sound clean and in tune, no waving.
It seems that every better music school expects you to do this. Sometimes the instructor will ask you to do this at your audition to get into the school. Stanley Hasty at Eastman asked me to do this. It was an interesting audition.
You are off to a great start. Don't rush these long tones. You will develop a very wonderful sound. It may not happen in a year, but by the time you are ready for college you will be lots of steps ahead of the other players, if music is your choice. In 6 months you will notice a big change.
Something fun may/will happen. You are young. Playing an open G at pp after a few months of this daily practice, your lungs will also improve. You may be able to hold an open G for well over a minute. So you will be doing your body a lot of good as well. Feel free in emailing me if you have questions. Phone number is also on the website.
Hope this helps. Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-22 17:04
I have morphed my answer on this in the last year.
I agree mostly with the "AIR, AIR, AIR" response. It must feel (in your gut region) as if you are pushing, pushing, pushing all the time. So yes, the feel you have when you are playing a double, double forte (in your gut region) is how it should feel.......ALL THE TIME.
What needs to happen is a STEADY stream of air for every note. This is what the ear perceives as a wonderful tone. Listening to Larry Combs live when I was student, I couldn't help but feel that this sound was as impossibly beautiful as it was unattainable for me (maybe still is). But once you hit the correct methodology, you instantly (and I mean INSTANTLY) know that you are on the right path.
So what is actually happening is that for every other note softer that double, double forte; you are engaging your diaphragm and your abdominal muscles in opposition (isometrically, one pulling on the other). The trick here is that we don't really "feel" the diaphragm much at all. It is a huge bell shaped muscle that works ALL THE TIME. We feel the abdominals because we DON'T use these muscles all the time. So in a soft, pianissimo passage you will FEEL as if you are working harder because your brain will say (rightly by the way), "How can I be working so hard when so little air is being pushed through the horn?" And the answer is that the diaphragm is WORKING (again, we won't really feel it) to "take in a breath" while your abdominals are WORKING to push the air out. This opposition is necessary to have CONTROL over the steadiness of this small amount of air (but it will FEEL as if you are PUSHING, PUSHING, PUSHING).
When the air column is NOT steady (what's the opposite of steady?) the sound becomes weaker and less attractive.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2015-11-22 20:46
I like the way Paul describes air usage and muscular apparatus above.
I'd also like to add that imagining the clarinet sound you want can be another path to enlightenment. Now, I don't mean copying or attempting to sound like one other clarinetist you've heard. I mean vividly imagining the sound *you* want to come out of your clarinet. You've made a great start by searching out recordings. Sometimes that's all you get. Imagine what you like about the sounds you hear. You don't need words to describe them, just hear the sound in your head. Trying to mimic that will help...
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-11-22 22:52
Katrina wrote:
> I'd also like to add that imagining the clarinet sound you want
> can be another path to enlightenment. Now, I don't mean copying
> or attempting to sound like one other clarinetist you've heard.
> I mean vividly imagining the sound *you* want to come out of
> your clarinet. You've made a great start by searching out
> recordings. Sometimes that's all you get.
I'd have to disagree that copying (or, rather, emulating) a clarinetist you've heard and liked is a wrong approach. Eventually, the attempt to duplicate the sound of a player you admire will give way to the reality that everyone sounds different at least in subtle ways, but in the process you may well discover things that are needed to produce a generically good sound and will allow you to go in the direction you choose.
IMO, it isn't possible to develop a really clear concept of tone quality without having a live model (or more) to use as a point of comparison. It's one of the reasons why studying with a teacher who is a good player can make such a difference. Often, it isn't even what you hear him or her say that's as important as the example you hear when the teacher plays at a lesson. It's especially valuable if you have the opportunity to hear the same person perform in a concert environment (so you can compare the sound close up and from an audience perspective in a hall), but that's not always possible.
You need models. Live ones. Wherever and however you can arrange to hear them. Recordings are not adequate reproductions from which to build a sound concept - though they are perfectly good for studying phrasing, style and other elements of a player's musical approach.
Karl
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2015-11-23 02:24
I didn't mean to suggest that one should *never* attempt to copy. If you have done that work and are still displeased with how you sound, then this would be the next step. And of course live models are better than recordings. Sometimes it's not possible though, so one has to make do with the recordings in between the rare times one can attend concerts.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-11-23 19:56
Hi,
I have thought about this post for several days and wish to add a somewhat reflective note for the OP to consider.
In my 60 years of playing woodwinds, most of the individuals who had a tone quality that really knocked me out were not teenage players but mature adult players. Many had performance degrees as well as extensive playing experience.
This is not say that some teenage players aren't quite outstanding. Great teenage players that I knew and heard play often when I was a student at Interlochen more than a 1/2 century ago like Larry Combs, Jack Rattarree, and Gene Zorro were truly amazing. Each went on to Eastman and Curtis followed by terrific playing and teaching careers. Their tone quality was what I thought was really exceptional.
So my point to Exiawolf is you are doing the right things for your age. In the coming years you may truly achieve an exceptional tone by listening to others, learning more about the clarinet, and having many varied playing experiences. In other words, lots of well focused work.
All this takes time unless you are one of the exceptions like I cited above. It's a long road but you'll probably know if and when you make it.
Best,
HRL
Post Edited (2015-11-23 22:00)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-11-24 01:17
Katrina... Exiawolf is only in high school. Do you really think he's ready for all this highly specialized information??
(To be honest, I'm really just annoyed that Michael Lowenstern is giving all my secrets away!)
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-11-24 02:57
Hank, I definitely see what you're saying and you're probably on the dot. However I guess what I guess I'm really going for, is what made players like Larey Combs have such an excellent tone quality at thg age... And why it sounded so exceptional to people like you. I'm sure there are other players who had very similar air support and voicing patterns, so was it his phrasing? His ability to play with others in an ensemble? Tuning? It's a hard question to answer which is why I figured Id ask this board and maybe after seeing all the different answers, I'd come to my own conclusion and maybe possibly improve my own playing. I want to make people cry when I play, not say "Good job on playing what's written". And I feel part of the equation is simply sounding beautiful.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-11-24 03:25
Exiawolf wrote:
> I want to make people cry when I play,
> not say "Good job on playing what's written". And I feel part
> of the equation is simply sounding beautiful.
Beautiful sound is an important part of good playing. But the part about wanting to "make people cry" (assuming the best sense) comes from somewhere else in the psyche of the player that's impossible to describe to another person and very hard to emulate, even if you sense it at some subliminal level in someone you've taken as a model. The purpose of developing technique, including control of the sound, is to be able to use it in giving life to the music you play. That doesn't come entirely or even mostly from doing deliberate things at a conscious level. You need time to develop the technique and the control to allow you react to the "feelingful" part of the music (to use a probably outmoded word coined in the '60s by proponents of "aesthetic education") that comes from somewhere inside.
The ability to reach listeners' inner feelings, to invoke a visceral reaction to your playing isn't something you can just consciously do. You need to reach a level in your playing where you and your instrument become a more or less organic whole - the tool and the artist become merged enough that the artist is no longer focused on the tool but on the result. That takes, as Hank has pointed out, time and experience. Whatever Larry Combs or Stanley Drucker or any other legend eventually became, they didn't play when they were 15 as they did in mid-career. And I know a number of very accomplished players, some now in major symphonies, who, when I knew them as peers long ago didn't play the way they do now, in fact didn't play all that well. Making people cry (or laugh or feel any other deep emotion) comes from the player's own inner sensitivity coupled with a steadily, however incrementally, improving technique. You simply can't jump there by getting some piece of well-worded advice.
Relax, enjoy the journey and just keep moving.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-11-24 04:01
Or, as Louis Cahuzac used to put it, "to overshoot the mark is not to attain it."
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-24 07:10
I want to agree with the "over phrasing" idea but honestly folks, when was the last time this century you heard anybody OVER PHRASE (particularly here in the States).
We don't even really speak to HOW to phrase much in the first place, so how are students supposed to even know what that means.
Marcellus would implore,"Phrase, phrase badly but phrase!"
I still fall into that camp.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-11-24 17:07
Some closing thoughts for Exiawolf.
I know two people whose tone quality really moves me. One is Emily on clarinet and the other is Paul on flute. Both have music degrees from smaller state universities not conservatories. Both play semi-professionally and are doublers like me.
However, Paul's sax and clarinet tone is very ordinary. And Emily's tone on sax is just OK. So, in this case there does not seem to be transference of a great tone by a player to other woodwind instruments. For the doublers out there, do you have great tone on all your doubles?
I sound very good on sax and clarinet and just so-so on flute. But even after all the time I have played, I am still focused on improving my clarinet and sax tone but realize that flute will probably not change much.
A final note: Trying to quantify how one achieves an exceptional tone is like try to grab smoke!
HRL
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2015-11-25 01:33
That was a high-level discussion, but I- as a humble amateur- have a more technical problem which I would like to hear your opinion about: How can the performer judge at all what tone quality arrives at the audience? For himself it is quite a different thing: the output of the instrument quite close to his ears and primarily without influence from the room acoustic- and, problably even more important, the high portion of sound via bone transmission (teeth, jaw, skull) with quite different response? It is a common experience how different you hear your own sound from a record.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-11-25 02:30
I agree with all the advice above, but I would like to add the reed factor. A great reed can mean the difference between a very good tone and a great one. Make sure your reed is a good match for your mouthpiece. If you're not already doing it, learn how to do basic reed adjustments.
I really thought about this several years ago when my daughter was in high school. I was sitting nearby as she was breaking in reeds, preparing for an audition. She had a nice sound, but when she put on one of her reeds . . . wow!
I suggested she use that reed for the audition, she agreed, and she did very well.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-11-25 04:55
MichaelW wrote:
> How can the performer judge at all what tone
> quality arrives at the audience?
I'm probably in a minority on this. I've simply given up trying to gauge how I sound to the audience. I have heard enough recordings of myself playing in performance conditions to know that when I'm pleased with the sound, the recorded sound pleases me, too. So I just try to get a sound that I like for the music I'm playing and let the product at the audience distance take care of itself.
May not be the most accurate way, but it makes me comfortable as a player.. If a conductor wants something different, I hope he'll tell me.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-11-25 08:03
That last statement is exactly how we put that together. It is a slower feedback system than actually hearing what is going on but it's essentially the same idea. Usually the conductor will give a correction and then you say to yourself, "Oh, I need to play softer in this context (or louder). Other feedback comes from peers in different sections (either solicited or not). And still there is feedback from people in the audience. It takes time and more memory but it is just as effective as good ol' listenin'.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: gwie
Date: 2015-11-25 15:35
On a more technical note: effective reed placement.
I can't tell you how many students come to me, play, and say they wish they had better tone. One of the instant fixes I make is to look at their reed and figure out where to best place it on their mouthpiece. Moments later, they play, and are just amazed at what is possible on the exact same hardware.
Elementary age, college age, it doesn't matter, the numbers of players who don't seem to care more than just slapping the reed on the mouthpiece and throwing the ligature over it is just astounding to me.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-11-25 16:23
One of the first things Kal Opperman taught me was to sand down the sides of the reed until it was slightly narrower than the mouthpiece lay (maybe 0.1 or 0.15 mm). Be sure not to curve the sides in, which will open a leak at one or the other corner of the tip.
Then center the reed on the table, hold it with your thumb, give a toot on open G, and move the reed from side to side in microscopic increments.
There will be one point where the resonance suddenly peaks. Carefully put the ligature on to anchor the reed on the resonant point.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-11-28 02:28
All above are 100% on the money. The only thing I can add is from a techie perspective.
iPhone or Android phone microphone: $0.50. Professional microphone used to achieve good recordings: $1,000 or more. If you didn't play back on a great home stereo system, iPhone or Android phone playback electronics: $1.50. Good home stereo: $1,000-$2,000 or more. Or headphones to play back from the iPhone or Android phone: Typical ear buds: $10-$20; good earphones: $200-$400.
So the "air", the "abdominal support", the "long tones", the "practice long tone dynamics", the "years of consistent practice", the mouthpiece/reeds, etc. etc. etc., are all MUCH more important than listening to recordings - even if you had the great equipment. Let a good teacher or other trusted musician evaluate your improvement, not recordings.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-11-28 02:53
If I were a bettin' man, I'd say "air" makes the most difference.
I sound MUCH better now that I push more, ,faster, and a consistent stream of air through the instrument.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-11-28 06:11
Funny story.
I told my wife about this thread and then asked her, "how does one get a better tone." She promptly said "Embouchure and breath support!"
Now what is startling is that she can't even play a recorder or song flute much less a woodwind instrument. I asked her how she knew this great information and she said "I've been married to a woodwind player most of my adult life and all I hear is..."
So I asked her is she could spell embouchure. Long silence and the end of the story. But we had a great laugh.
HRL
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-11-28 06:47
Hank, that's a pretty funny story. I guess the answer to the question is rather obvious, but I do think not only did I gain alot of insight into sound production and perception, but others were able to learn alot from thinking about it as well. I wish the answer was really as simple as embouchure and breath support...
I guess the biggest problem is we have a sound concept in our head that is 100% perfect and far from what both we (and the clarinet itself) may ever sound like. We're always going to be unhappy with our tone in some way or another because it isn't that "perfect" idea that we present to ourselves in our head. I hear painters talk about this all the time... They have an image in their head, and as hard as they try to put it on canvas, it never happens (Even though people like us are able to just sit back and appreciate what we consider, quite beautiful).
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2015-11-28 07:35
I would be surprised if a few great and less than great clarinet players were not happy with their sound. I know the great majority strive for "better" or "perfection." But its also true that many have reached their tone "nirvana" although in their outward humility, don't admit it.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-11-28 07:41
Exiawolf wrote:
> I guess the biggest problem is we have a sound concept in our
> head that is 100% perfect and far from what both we (and the
> clarinet itself) may ever sound like.
I wish this were true. The problem many students I work with both as a clarinet teacher and as a more general instrumental coach and conductor is that they really don't have a concept of tone in their imaginations - "in their head" - and only produce rudimentary tone because it satisfies their need to play the right notes at (hopefully) the right time. The difference between an advanced instrumental student and an elementary or intermediate one isn't only basic technical skill, but, just as important, at least the beginning of an independent tone concept.
Karl
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2015-11-30 07:34
There are many variables that differ person to person,
what goes on in your head (embochure, toung, throat, support, wind, etc.),
what you have for a set-up and how you adjust it,
what your tone concept is (a beautiful sound), etc.
When I was/am working things out, I found that recording didn't have the immediate feedback that I needed to sort out what changes got me closer to my ideal, and I found that standing in a room corner reflected the sound back to me well enough to get what I need. It took me a while.
As to your comment of 'making them cry', that's expensive. Live a full life. Have fun, joy, sorrow, confidence and a story to tell without words. The fact that you even raise the concept early on shows that it will come.
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