 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2015-10-08 02:11
I'm listening to players like Steve Williamson, Mark Nuccio, Ricardo Morales, Charles Neidich and other American clarinet orchestra pros in live concert and recordings and I'm just not impressed by any of them. They seem to fall short in terms of sound quality, interpretation, the diversity of the repertoire and needs more development to reach perfection. For example, Nuccio is a player that I think has a rather unrefined and poor sound with mediocre style to his playing. But, this guy has been principal in NYP for a long time and I can't believe it. Williamson lacks a good sound to my ears , and has lousy interpretation of music. Morales sounds too subdued and muted with lack of dynamic power and projection and vibrancy.
Where can I hear clarinet perfection in the US? The most favorable sound I heard is from a French player, Paul Meyer and he is really amazing. Is the US lagging behind Europe in clarinet playing and development?
Post Edited (2015-10-08 02:13)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-10-08 02:26
You don't like what you don't like. Your idea of "perfection" is so out of line with what most of us in the USA think of that your question is a non-starter.
Either you're trolling or you'd like to find a good European-sounding clarinet player in the USA - which is it?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2015-10-08 05:42
Hey, you like what you like. My fav is paquito d'rivera.
But if you were trolling, you would've done better looking for a sound like richard stoltzman.
Chances are if you like a "European" sound, you'll probably have to look at clarinet players who grew up in Europe, or at least also idealized that sound as they grew up and internalized it during their clarinet development. Same for German, Eastern European, folk, American, klezmer, or any other characteristic sound.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2015-10-08 06:13
Your choice is your choice. Have you, though, heard the late Harold Wright, principal of the Boston Symphony (especially his recordings of the Brahms Sonatas on Boston records?)
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2015-10-08 07:27
ChuChu - Like whomever you want to like. Music is art. Feel free to lift up those you like.
Alexi - you mentioned Paquito D'Rivera...I had never heard of him until I attended a "Tribute to the King" in 2002ish. He was one of a trio of clarinet players (Bob Wilbur being one of the others). I was really impressed by them all, but since I hadn't known about Paquito prior to the performance, he made an impression on me. I don't enjoy the style of jazz he "normally" plays, but I sure do admire his capabilities and talents. Thanks for mentioning him, as I hadn't thought about him in a while - guess I'll go out and listen to a couple Paquito tunes now.
Fuzzy
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-10-08 09:28
It's noteworthy that Neidich did some of his most significant clarinet study in Russia. He's taught many of the top young American clarinet players at this point, so how much of his approach is really American and how much is Russian is an interesting question. A more significant question is how much of a difference it really makes.
Many of my favorite clarinetists are European (including Paul Meyers) but that doesn't mean I don't find much to admire in some of the American players you mentioned. While your criticisms are overstated, I don't think they are entirely without merit. Still, some of my LEAST favorite clarinet sounds are English, but that doesn't keep Michael Collins from being someone who's playing I hold in very high regard.
I get to hear Michelle Zukovsky live quite often, and she's one of my American favorites, although she does play German system clarinets. Harold Wright, David Shifrin, and Larry Combs are among the other Americans I've most enjoyed. Wonkak Kim and Patrick Morgan are somewhat younger Americans who have been memorable for me, although I have not had the opportunity to hear as much of them. Find what you like, and take what you like from all that you find. Life is more interesting and more enjoyable that way!
BTW: Mark Nuccio is now the Principal Clarinet of the Houston Symphony. I haven't heard anyone suggest that he made that move due to people in NYC being unhappy with his playing.
Anders
Post Edited (2015-10-08 09:41)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2015-10-08 12:31
Some folks need to be careful with word selections. Some of these world class players read this Bboard. Frankly I disagree with ChuChu. It's for sure a matter of taste, but if you look around at the members of some of the German, French, and European orchestra players, there are American players in a few of these orchestras!
One of my favorite players whom I went to Interlochen Arts Academy with was Lee Morgan. He then went and studied with Marcellus. Maybe google him? He was 3 years ahead of me so I'm not sure if he's remember me.
Lets be nice and kind to these great musicians. I personally know Ricardo and the guys with Chicago. They are are super nice! Also the guys with Philly and several other orchestras, not just in the US. They all have feelings and frankly I strongly disagree with ChuChu.
Lets look at Eddie Palanker. Retired yes, perhaps the best bass clarinetist ever to play the horn. The first chair player in Baltimore is Steve Barta, a Marcellus student. He has a fine sound, but will sadly be retiring.
My friend David Shifrin, not close friend, but we surely know each other, has performed all over Europe and recorded in Germany.
The Bbboard is small, but big. Lets enjoy some of the great Bboard players that I feel are top in their class. I've made a lot of good friends that are from this clarinet board and can blow your mind from such great playing.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-10-08 17:33
I love the American sound....Benny Goodman, Pete Fountain, Artie Shaw, Sidney Bechet, Edmond Hall, Johnny Dodds, Jimmie Noone, Irving Fazola, Leon Roppolo....man those cats really do it for me.
But I like the British sound too...Acker Bilk and Reginald Kell.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-10-08 18:27
There is no such thing as an American sound. Some players sound dark, some bright, some thin,some full. Even the ones you referred to all sound different both in tone quality and musicianship. If you don't like to listen to them, DON'T.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-10-08 20:08
I would like to think that it was just a "Donald Trump" moment from someone who has a legitimate opinion.
I would say similar to some comments above, that speaking of purely timbre, the given list of American players is pretty diverse.
So it leads me then to believe that we are referring to style. I would have to agree that music education in this country is technique centered above most other considerations and leaves too much traditional musical interpretation up to the individual to discover on her/his own. VERY VERY SAD
As a result interpretations in the US tend to be on the bland side, not much real meat on the bones. I would take a technically flawed performance with gobs of heart over a dry note perfect one any day of the week. And that I think is what we may be talking about more than anything. On that score, performances that we have listed on this board recently out of the likes of Ottensamer are far more interesting and (dare I say) beautiful than many of our American colleagues.
I have heard some truly amazing things out of David Shifrin and Stephen Williamson, but for my money there are more interesting things happing at "other than symphonic level performances" these days.
So I'd say go out and listen to a lot of live performances of many different groups out there. There is music being made all the time, maybe just not always you'd expect (or hope).
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-10-08 23:40
Paul, your statement brought up a question in my mind. As an American clarinetist who still has a while to go before college, how would one learn how to interpret music if the problem lies within the education around the country?
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-10-09 01:28
I agree wholeheartedly with Paul above. I would take the position that technique-centric music education is a peculiarity to woodwind study, however.
Study a brasswind or keyboard instrument and much of the focus IS about style, interpretation, and nuance--making music and not just playing accurately pitched and sequenced notes.
Yet, technical excellence seems the primary key to unlocking the door to a performance career on a woodwind instrument. How can we expect anything else from "the system" but to prepare aspiring musicians for that reality?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-10-09 02:44
Chuchu -
I decided long ago that I wouldn't listen to performances or recordings I didn't like. I've heard all the players you mention, most of them live. Some of them I like a lot. Others … meh.
No one pleases me 100%. Ulysse Delecluse had a tone like tearing sheet-metal, but his technique was beyond perfect and his musicianship overwhelmed his flaws. For me, Reginald Kell had no weaknesses. When Ted Oien played, you listened to no one else. Ditto for Ralph McLane and Iggy Genussa.
To succeed, you must get beyond what others do and please yourself. That means learning to make not one good tone but many, each appropriate to the music and the tones of your colleagues. Please read Robert Bloom's essential article http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=94788&t=94788.
Next, and even more important, learn to phrase like to the great artists other than clarinetists. Heifetz, Stern, Casals, de Pre, Lipatti, Horowitz, Hoffman, Armstrong, McCormack, Callas, Pears - those who bring the music to life. Cortot made innumerable errors, but his musicianship lit up the room.
Each of the players you list has something - a lot - to show you. Take what you like into your own playing and show the world what you can do.
Ken Shaw
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-10-09 06:58
Verney's sound bears some similarity to that of Louis Cahuzac, another great French clarinetist of the time. Very resonant, intensely centered, and radiant. Yona Ettlinger, who studied with Cahuzac, had a similar tonal concept.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKiFU3uuLYU,
Post Edited (2015-10-10 06:16)
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-10-09 09:01
"I'm listening to players like Steve Williamson, Mark Nuccio, Ricardo Morales, Charles Neidich and other American clarinet orchestra pros in live concert and recordings and I'm just not impressed by any of them."
They're doing the work they love, and making a decent living at it. I don't think they much care what you or I think about their playing. I don't find anything wrong with the way they sound, but IMO there's nobody better than the late Harold Wright.
Post Edited (2015-10-09 17:53)
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-10-09 19:33
Notice that "ChuChu" has not responded at all. I see a lot of threads started by someone who picks a fight, then never responds. I wish the BBoard would ban these folks. If it does any good - the "American Sound" if one could define it - came from Daniel Bonade, to Gigliotti, and is very well represented by Morales and, if I may say - David Bloomberg. There are many more,(Combs, Drucker, etc.) and with their differences, all are quite wonderful!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-10-09 21:32
ChuChu you have no idea of the history of the "American" sounds, which is actually non existent. Our "sound" was influenced by a Frenchman, Bonade, and a Russian, Bellision. Over the years players blended the tones and created bigger, fuller and more vibrant tones but many went in different directions as well which is why there is no such thing as an "American" sound today. With that said, the manufacture of so many new mouthpieces, reeds, ligatures etc. and easy access to recordings and touring players you will see what you call the American sounds spread all over the world. Sure there's still differences but more by individual players than by country. There was a time as a student, in the 50s-early 60s, I could tell which country a recording was from by listening to the clarinet player at least 3/4 of the time. Now it's nearly impossible. The French, English, and Germans used to have a more distinct tone. English players mostly used English clarinets and equipment, German players in orchestras had to us German clarinets, French were very distinctive as well, but no more in many places. Sure Americans were and ARE influenced by foriegn players as well and they are and have been greatly influence by American players. I hear pleasant, beautiful, tones everywhere these days but I also hear tones far less flattering everywhere as well. In America and every where else as well. Bottom line, i love the sound I get, it's mine. As my teacher, Leon Russianoff, told me when i asked him who or how I should sound he said "Like Eddie Palanker".
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-09 21:46
I prefer Cadbury's chocolate over Hershey's, but that's just me.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-10-09 22:07
Thanks Ed, that is the best overall advice on the subject, sound like yourself.
I did want to put a fine point on the different approaches to music though. It is still pretty apparent when you listen to "sound" writ large. The best example (and easiest to appreciate) would be listening to a Johann Strauss Jr. waltz played by the Vienna Philharmonic vs any American ensemble. There are so many different elements that are played in a certain "style" that you can pick out the Vienna Philharmonic blind-folded with both hands tied behind your back.
I firmly believe that all that can be heard in how individual Europeans approach a musical offering, with the "style," "story," whatever you want to call it, being the most important factor.
Many years ago when I was buying my Wurlitzers, my German/Canadian friend said to me, "You'll never sound German. You don't crease the fronts of you blue jeans." He meant that it is the complete approach to life in general as well as music specifically that makes the "sound" different.
Yes, there is greater and greater homogeneity amongst orchestras (and individual players) from across the world, but the different tendencies are still there.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-10-09 22:34
As to the people who think we should delete posts like this ... I gave everyone fair warning in the very first reply. It was a troll I believe, but some of the fish that bit have a lot to offer.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-10-10 06:57
I prefer American dark chocolate. My wife prefers Belgian. To each his/her own.
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2015-10-10 19:45
Natalie Parker over in San Francisco has a lovely sound. Clear and silky!
Fernando
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-10-10 21:49
And I prefer Coke over Pepsi.
And Burger King over McDonalds.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-10-11 02:51
ChuChu may or may not have been trolling, but it certainly led to some interesting points.
Tony F.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-10-11 16:33
Hey Silversorcerer,
Thanks for the comprehensive link!! The Kenneth Grant version of Premiere Rhapsody (accompanied by a saxophone ensemble ..... his own arrangement?) has got to be one of the weirdest and most irresistible things I've ever heard.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: ChuChu
Date: 2015-10-12 04:47
I'd like to add that my impressions are not based on first impression or even 2nd or 3rd impression. I don't judge a player that quickly. This is based on years of listening to these players and they do not change or improve their playing style or sound. You may not agree with me, but I live in the NYC suburbs and these are the players that were playing the big orchestras before they left and go elsewhere. Many of their students play in the similar style. So, their influence is greater although they are not great.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2015-10-12 12:10
I won't join to the dicsussion about who are/were the greatest players etc for it makes no sense, and it's a fruitless dispute.
However, one thing was always a mistery to me. With todays's technology, knowledge, precision of measuring and manufacture, the accuracy of 3d scan, CNC machines with near 0.001mm tolerancy we must have better* equipments than ever before. Still, if you are listening to Bonade, Wright, Mc Lane, Magnani, Cahuzac etc. you just don't find this quality nowdays. There are a few possibilities.
1. Equipment is not better today despite of all the efforts and technology.
2. Clarienttists are not better today if they can't produce the same quality (even with better equipment) as great ones of the past.
3. The aforementioned players would be the best ones among today's stars if they were living now. No matter of equipment.
4. I'm totally wrong with this thought process.
Mark
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2015-10-12 20:42
When I think of the classic symphonic American sound, I think of Bonade, Marcellus, Gigliotti, Montanaro (Check his solo recordings on Boston records) and to an extant, some current players such as Rusinek and Hara. Yet each is/was individual and their solos stand out in orchestral pieces.
The original poster is citing players whose sound reflects change towards a different concept of sonority. It is perhaps more ensemble-ish, darker, more homogenous, less "hey look at me" or whatever term you find applicable. This trend has been ongoing for at least several decades. It seems to have effected t he oboe world as well (Listen to the current NYPhils oboist and compare his sound to that of, say, DeLancie). Perhaps this whole process is a surrendering to a meme of consensus, or, a generalized loss of individuality. Your call.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2015-10-14 18:09
ChuChu is a troll. I have enjoyed reading some of the responses, but can't dignify O.P. with an answer to his obvious trolling. To say you prefer one style over another is one thing, but to say Stephen Williamson is not impressive, is unrefined, and mediocre is beyond insulting. I'd be willing to bet he plays better in his sleep than ChuChu does on his best day. Stay away, troll.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2015-10-14 19:36
I figured it was either that or someone who was very opinionated and closed minded. In either case I figured it pointless to attempt a reasonable discussion.
Over the years I have become much more open minded in my listening. While I still have clear preferences, I have come to appreciate a broader range of players, which I feel has also enhanced my playing and knowledge as a musician.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-10-14 21:08
I think it may be worth noting that ChuChu hasn't really talked about an "American" style or school of playing. He has singled out three whose playing he doesn't like and then said he hasn't heard an American player he *does* like, or even respects as a "great" player. So what's puzzling is why he stops at American players whose playing he finds sub-par (justifiably or not). Surely there are European players who don't meet ChChu's standard for greatness, but he doesn't give us those, only three American names.
That said, among the three players ChuChu does name specifically, their styles are very different in basic tone concept, approach to ensemble and to phrasing and "interpretation." They do not represent a monolithic style and, if he had gone back in recent history to include players who were heavily recorded but are no longer playing, he might even have hit upon a few who weren't especially quiet about their dislike of each other's playing.
So, at this point in the conversation, ChuChu has said he doesn't like any American player he has heard, which is his privilege, and he has implied that European playing is better without having given specific instances of truly great (in his opinion) European clarinetists. Nor does he say whether he thinks *all* European players are better than any American player (clearly silly) or that because he finds some Europeans greater than any American, he wants to generalize that European playing is therefore definitionally superior (logically questionable).
There is no American style (as has been said repeatedly in this thread) and we could, though I wouldn't here, debate about Nuccio's, Williams's and Morales's playing ad infinitum and ad nauseum. ChuChu's post seems to make a point that has no point.
Karl
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-10-17 19:33
Several people have replied with advice not to listen to things we don't like. Hmm. I agree. Except when I don't. Sometimes I go on a deliberate spree of listening to things I don't like.
Why?
Sometimes, I discover that my mind has changed itself without telling me. Surprise! Listening to my dad's beloved Ornette Coleman on saxophone used to drive me bonkers as a child. I thought free jazz sounded like a bunch of noise. One day I heard "Free Jazz" over the speaker system at Second Story Books in Rockville, MD, my favorite bookstore, and -- whoops! I looked through the store's used CDs, found a copy and bought it right there on the spot.
That reversal hasn't happened to me with a classical clarinet player yet, because I've never heard any clarinet player I hated. I think they're all interesting in some way. And that's the other reason why every now and then I listen to my least-favorite performances: they *are* interesting. They make me think about *why* I like some performances better than others. They make me listen to my own practice sessions in new ways.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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