 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2015-09-18 05:46
Hello:
This may be a very basic question but I don't remember seeing this before.
The 3rd movement of the "Six Studies in English Folksong" by Ralph Vaughan Williams starts in 4/4 time but changes to 3/2 for the last 2 bars. There is an indication over the 3/2 of "(qtr note = qtr note)", using real notes of course. My interpretation of this is that, since we are in 4/4 going to 3/2, the tempo has now been reduced by 1/2. I view it as 1-2-3-4 (change to 3/2) 1-and-2-and-3-and.
Correct or no?
Thanks,
Matt
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-18 16:36
Matt Locker wrote:
> The 3rd movement of the "Six Studies in English Folksong" by
> Ralph Vaughan Williams starts in 4/4 time but changes to 3/2
> for the last 2 bars.... I view it as
> 1-2-3-4 (change to 3/2) 1-and-2-and-3-and.
>
> Correct or no?
>
As I read your count above, I think you and the posters who are trying to correct you may be saying the same thing. The first 3/2 bar is just an elongation - a built in ritenuto - of the last two notes of bar 18. So the melody simply continues from the 4/4 bar into the first 3/2 bar as though it were still in the same 4/4 meter, but the last two notes that were quarters in bar 18 are slowed to twice their original length. The last bar is in effect a fermata and the meter is irrelevant.
But I think that's what you were implying with 1-and-2-and-3-and, that the quarters are the same tempo as the ones in the previous bar. VW couldn't have written 6/4 because that implies two groups of 3, and this is clearly three pairs of quarters. But the pulse is, as I think you suggested, a steady quarter note.
Karl
Post Edited (2015-09-18 16:48)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2015-09-18 18:13
Still yes for me. Quarter constant. Beat is slower to accommodate .
Freelance woodwind performer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2015-09-19 07:23
Vaughan Williams does some interesting things with time signatures in no. 6, and the two 1/4 measures stand out.
There was a great discussion on this board a couple years ago about some of the less common time signatures, including 6/4.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=390335&t=390284
Perhaps it would have been less confusing if Vaughan Williams had written those two measures in 6/4. He probably didn't for the reason Karl gave--it can imply two groups of three (although not every composer treats 6/4 this way).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-09-20 05:40
Matt,
I'm going to skirt around the replies above which seem mostly to be speculations about what the composer could have meant with this change because it seems pretty clear to me...
First off, any time there is a change in meter with an indication of qtr=qtr (or 8th=8th, etc.) means that there is emphatically no tempo change. A quarter note from the 4/4 measure is the same length as a quarter note from the 3/2 measure, there are just more quarter notes in the 3/2 measure.
There is a confusion that arises here, because it seems pretty logical to insert a 6/4 measure after a 4/4 measure in this situation to keep the tempo and pulsation the same, just with an extra two quarter notes in the measure. What seems to be a common misunderstanding, though, is that there can be a binary measure that exists with a 6 as a top indicator in conventional music writing. Same goes for 9 and 12. A 6/4 measure is like a 6/8 measure with quarters substituted for eigths—there are two beats (not 6) in both measures, in the case of 6/4, there are two beats each divided into 3 quarter notes (these are ternary measures with 2, 3 or 4 beats per measure, always.) To my knowledge there is no way to mark and 'exceptional' 6/4 where it is a binary meter with 6 beats that divide into two 8ths. So this rules out the 6/4 option over the 3/2—I don't know this piece, but I am almost sure he doesn't want you to start thinking in groups of three quarter notes.
So the last option comes down to adding a 2/4 measure (which keeps the pulsation on a quarter note) after the 4/4 measure, rather than adding a 3/2 measure (which slows down the pulsation two the half note, but doesn't change the tempo). This is also a viable option when you want to prolong a phrase by a half measure, but it sounds from Karl's post that this is more cadential and has a ritenuto sort of written into it. This means the composer wants these 6 quarter notes (or however those times are filled) to be thought as one metrical unit and to be played 'together' more than the phrase would be if it were spread out over two measures of 4/4, or a measure of 4/4 and one of 2/4.
I disagree with Karl that these notes should be played as an elongated 4/4 with two additional notes, that are elongated into fermatas. If Vaughn Williams had wanted that, he would have written a 4/4 with a 2/4 and indicated an allarg, rit, ral or put fermatas in. That sort of playing is probably very close to accurate and is what's close to needed for the interpretation of this passage, but I think the 3/2 indication is very specific in meaning that in you should be taking a step back in accentuation (even though the tempo remains constant, notwithstanding a musical ritenuto) and really emphasize the pulsation on the first half note beat (foremost) and to a lesser extent on the next two half note beats. If you keep thinking in 4/4, the pulsation is more felt on the quarter note level and doesn't really apply to something written specifically into a 3/2 measure.
Post Edited (2015-09-20 07:08)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-09-20 06:39
qualitycontrol wrote:
> I disagree with Karl that these notes should be played as an
> elongated 4/4 with two additional notes, that are elongated
> into fermatas.
No, the two quarter notes in bar 18 are elongated into two half notes - twice their original length, to create a written out ritenuto effect, as you say, still in tempo. The "effective" fermata is only on the last note, which is simply a sustained final note for both the piano and the clarinet. In practical terms it has no meter. I think that's what I said, but if it wasn't clear, it's what I meant.
We're all saying the same thing. I only wanted to point out why Vaughan Williams wrote what he wrote.
Karl
Post Edited (2015-09-20 17:00)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-09-20 07:05
Ah ok, I misunderstood that specific part. I should have looked the score up. Is is something like a series of measures that are mostly quarter notes followed by a 3/2 measure of two quarter notes followed by two half notes?
I still stand by saying that a 3/2 measure of two quarters followed by two half notes marks something importantly different than an added 2/2 measure filled with a half note after a 4/4 measure. Even if we're still counting by the quarter-note in our head, the composer is signalling and overall diminution in the pace of the pulsation (pulsation not being synonymous with tempo.)
Post Edited (2015-09-20 07:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2015-09-29 06:54
All:
It would seem that some very interesting discussion has happened while I was out of touch here. Thank you all for chiming in.
Having read the additions to this thread & looking through the music again, I believe that my original interpretation - which was explained very nicely by Karl as a written ritenuto - is correct.
It makes total sense to me when it's played from that perspective.
Thank you again,
Mat
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
