 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: thecuriousclarinet
Date: 2015-08-29 02:44
Should I just go on any audition that becomes available? How do I discern which auditions I just shouldn't bother with? I mean, I'm not going to fly across the country to audition for the New York Philharmonic.
I don't want to waste mine or anyone else's time by auditioning for an orchestra that is out of my league, but I also know that not putting myself out there and auditioning is the only way to for sure not win the job!
How do you all decide which auditions to take?
Post Edited (2015-08-29 02:45)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2015-08-29 02:51
Have you taken an auditon yet?
I think the question is: do you feel like you know the excerpts? If so, and you can afford it -- go.
I would think that you should take all regional auditon that you can, and as you improve begin spending serious $$$ to travel distance.
I'm sure there will be many other responses, I look forward to reading them.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-08-29 03:02
Some honestly require a resume submission first and that will weed out those not already experienced symphonic players. Others don't, and as said above, if you KNOW your stuff and have the confidence to do it, you should do it.
At very least it's experience and who knows, you may be exactly what a particular committee is looking for.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-08-29 03:13
Unless you're a highly qualified candidate, you won't be invited to an audition after the resume screening process. At least that's how many full time orchestras operate--you send in a resume (and maybe these days a recording/video) and they'll decide whether to invite you or not. That might not preclude you auditioning anyway (I've known some auditions that gave an 'invitation' to applicants they were interested in, but still allowed non-invited players to audition), but it's probably a waste of your time and money to go if they don't want you to.
I actually like it when people are just appointed (as it seems has happened here in Cleveland). Save everyone the show, and the waste of time and money.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: vin
Date: 2015-08-29 07:07
Play excerpts for one or two orchestral professional clarinetist you respect (who aren't your teacher). Ask them straight up. Then you'll know. Also, tape yourself. Compare it to recordings of great clarinetists. Then, if you're honest with yourself, you'll know.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-08-29 07:50
You need to be realistic about how good you are. Are you good or are you great. Can you play excerpts ilke Daphis, Mid Summer nights dream etc. perfectly or just OK. As someone said, many orchestra's will screen you out. If they don't they will send you a a list of excerpts, that should tell you if you should audiition or not. Unless you're fantastic forget the really big ones assuming they invite you because there will be so many fantastic players auditioning. Don't kid yourself, be honest so you don't waste your money and ruin your life. You have to be the best one, great technique, perfect rhythm, perfect intonation, a good strong tone and of course once that's all there, musicality.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-08-29 12:18
I must take issue with the notion that an "appointment" is the best way to go. That assumes that the best candidate for a job is already well known to everyone. Yes, there is a pool of top talent (the usual suspects) that apply for New York Philharmonic etc. during a certain period. But the pool DOES change, and new talent always emerges.
Being that new, hot commodity is not a high percentage game, but it does happen.
We shouldn't be the one's to discourage the effort.........that's why there is a process called an audition.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-08-29 17:38
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I must take issue with the notion that an "appointment" is the
> best way to go. That assumes that the best candidate for a job
> is already well known to everyone. Yes, there is a pool of top
> talent (the usual suspects) that apply for New York
> Philharmonic etc. during a certain period. But the pool DOES
> change, and new talent always emerges.
>
> We shouldn't be the one's to discourage the
> effort.........that's why there is a process called an
> audition.
>
Yes, but when the pool changes, the new components are almost always players who have made a reputation in a smaller, shorter-season, lower-paid orchestra and have a track record, however limited, that can serve as a sort of preliminary audition stage. An orchestra looking for a player to fill a vacancy could certainly invite those known players to audition against each other. The problem with open auditions is that lots of people spend scads of money and tons of preparatory effort with no real chance of getting the job. Requiring pre-audition submissions of resumes or recorded performances no doubt limits the time the audition committee needs to spend listening to the actual auditions, but it still subjects many people to those losses in time, effort and money who have no realistic chance at the job.
The reality is that any audition is an insignificantly small snapshot of the person's playing, and once the committee has weeded out players for incompatibility of their sound concept or glaring weaknesses in intonation or rhythm, there are still dozens or even hundreds of players in the world who are fully capable of filling an opening successfully and performing well in an orchestra. Among the 100 plus who may show up for a major or even 2nd-tier symphony orchestra audition, at least a handful would play wonderfully in any orchestral environment. That some orchestras go through two or three rounds of auditions without choosing anyone is to me incomprehensible unless the orchestra is already in negotiation with someone they want and is simply killing time.
Open auditions simply substitute one form of unfairness for another (there is no fair way, after all), because with all the truly excellent players in the world (not every audition involves a principal chair or requires soloistic flair) a five or ten minute slice of each one's life can never do justice to anyone's full capability. The newly minted wunderkinder from the conservatory graduating classes can still find their way to the top (most do) by auditioning for and playing in the smaller orchestras and being noticed.
Karl
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-08-29 17:44
Hey Paul,
Someone always disagrees when I say this, which is cool, but I'm really pretty much against the open audition process, in most circumstances...not because I "assume the best candidate for the job is already known"...but because I pretty firmly believe nearly all auditions are predetermined anyhow, and the screened audition process is unnecessary window dressing.
I've been to military band auditions where I've overheard one judge whisper to another "remember, so-and-so will be down from [insert band] in the afternoon, so let's not load up on finalists", and I've seen orchestra managers apologize to great players for not making the finals after exceptional auditions, because things were obviously rigged. Of the several professional auditions I took, only one of them seemed fully straight-up to me (which is the only reason I qualify my statements at all on this). To be quite honest, there are plenty of people who can handle these jobs--you might as well pick a known quantity, and a known personality who can get along with the others. The clearest way to do that is just appoint, and take out the faux 'pure musical' meritocracy of it all.
In jazz, groups almost never do an open audition for 'the best' player. It's all about who really works with that particular group--free association, free hiring practices. I'm hired (or hire, if we're talking about my band) not based solely on musical skills, but how well that cat gels with the group, what the level of stage presence is, how reliable that person is in certain situations, etc, etc, etc. So many things are non-musical, but effect how the music is performed, and how successful the ensemble will be, that a purely musical audition would make getting any jazz group impossible to get off the ground.
Once upon a time, in the orchestra world, there were no open auditions. It's a relatively new concept. You can argue it's great (and there are examples of people it's helped--I would call them exceptions) or you can say it's silly. Generally speaking, I'm one of the latter.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2015-08-29 18:27
"That some orchestras go through two or three rounds of auditions without choosing anyone is to me incomprehensible unless the orchestra is already in negotiation with someone they want and is simply killing time. "
It is reasonable to think this. I once thought so, myself. But things are different on the two sides of the screen. It is hard to believe, I know, that the overwhelming majority of players who are dismissed from an audition are done because of flaws in rhythm, pitch, and basic phrasing, in that order. But it is so. I agree that there are many super talented players out there, and I've taken auditions where nobody was hired and thought, "What BS, I can understand if they don't think I'm good enough, but what about this great player or that great player?" It is true that an audition is a very small snapshot that may not give a full picture of a player. But so is a live national broadcast, or a Beethoven symphony for that matter. My speculation, for what it's worth, is that many talented players spend their time practicing by feel, not training their feel to objective standards of rhythm and pitch.
To the OP, the thought of flying across the country to audition for the NY Phil is a bit of a straw man unless you actually have submitted your resume and been invited. If an orchestra of this size will hear you, by all means go. But in the meantime, audition for any orchestra that will hear you and whose audition you can afford to attend. The process will provide its own limitations -- I was just talking to a grad student last week who was frustrated at not being allowed to attend even relatively minor auditions after resume screening. If you are invited you may find that you aren't competitive, but then again, you may be. Only one way to find out.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-08-29 19:42
I am definitely not one to address the original question. However, the answers from those who are qualified to do so seem to be saying "grow a thick skin and go for it".
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-08-29 21:31
Marlbboroughman said this. "Someone always disagrees when I say this, which is cool, but I'm really pretty much against the open audition process, in most circumstances...not because I "assume the best candidate for the job is already known"...but because I pretty firmly believe nearly all auditions are predetermined anyhow, and the screened audition process is unnecessary window dressing." As a member of the Baltimore Symphony orchestra for 50 years, retired now, and having gone through many auditions years ago, coming in second, finals, not at all, I can tell you that what he said may happen sometimes, I know years ago, especially before they used screens, it happened a lot, three times to me for sure with no screen. But to say that most auditions are predetermined is BS and just plain wrong. When we held auditions in the BSO we usually screened because we could not hear hundreds of players and wanted to give each player at least five minutes. Let me tell you sometimes we gritted our teeth having to sit on the other side of the screen waiting for the player to finish. Rhythm, intonation, technique missing to say the least at the level they were auditioning for. Sure, we invited some players to the semi finals if they were coming from another orchestra position of note or was a regular sub with us. In the 4-5 wind auditions I sat in on as a judge we never hired a single one of them that I recall. In our auditions the conductor didn't have a voice until the finals and sometimes they were not satisfied with anyone we choose so we would either have another audition at a later time or invite players through the year that the commettie members knew. sometimes a person that did make the finals in the first place or weren't able to come to the audition. If a person "won" the audition they were invited to play with us, on salary, for one or two weeks and if accepted would be on probation for the first year. Some players in my time did not pass probation and we would start again. I have friends in many orchestras and I know that the vast majority of orchestra auditions, all behind the screen, even in the finals in many cases, as we did, are fair no matter what some people have heard or experineced. The vast majority are fair these days, period.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-08-29 21:56
Yeah, you tend to get indignant when I voice this opinion, Ed. It's not the first time we've disagreed on the subject. You think my opinion is 'BS'--fair enough: I personally think your trust in the screen is a bit naive.
If you guys were scrupulously honest in the BSO, I applaud you. I don't think that's out of the question. But that's not what I've seen at most auditions (and I wasn't auditioning fifty years ago, before screened auditions, but between 20 and 15 years ago--plenty of screens, plenty of chatter).
If the OP wants to find out, and feels qualified as a player, by all means have at it. Spend your money, fly around the country if you're good enough, take auditions. 'Believe in yourself' if you think that'll help. Maybe it's a scrupulously honest orchestral audition world out there, you'll get the job you deserve (if you deserve it), and I'm wrong. Maybe Ed's right, and my opinion is BS. But keep your eyes and ears open, and don't deceive yourself either. Cuz maybe I'm not wrong after all....and maybe I know BS when I hear it.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-08-30 01:41
Ok, let's not get too rowdy guys.
Point being that the audition process is not going to be 100 percent fair to everyone. But most groups do put honest effort into it and are rewarded with good candidates.
I recall the Metropolitan Opera Auditions of the 80's. That was the most lambasted nonsense of its day. At least 300 very qualified candidates came and went through (if I recall correctly) 3 separated auditions without a single winner. It was on the fourth go around that they discovered Ricardo Morales. I don't think anyone today would argue with that result despite how painful it was for everyone at the time.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-08-30 17:59
Sorry Eric but my BS was only referring to your statement "I pretty firmly believe nearly all auditions are predetermined " I didn't mean to imply that anything else you stated was. If you had stated that some are, I might agree, but to say "all auditions" is just plain wrong for the "major" orchestra's. If you're referring to regional and per service orchestras you may very well be correct, I've heard a story or too myself, but when you assume all or ever most of the major orchestras today are predetermined then I'm telling you and everyone else that that's just not correct. Maybe some, I can't say it never happens. But as I said, I have friends and students in many orchestra's and that's what I base my opinion on. And the fact that the five wind auditions I was a judge in my orchestra we had fair auditions, period.
Paul, I believe the Met auditions were in the 90s not 80s. Ricardo was still studying with me during the summers at EMF in the 80s. I retired from there in 1990 and he got the met job after that. I'm not sure how many showed up and you could very well be right about the procedure. I tought he only played two rounds but I probably don't remember the details other then he said all the rounds were behind the screen, as is done now in Baltimore.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2015-08-30 18:03)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-08-30 18:18
The ridiculous thing about todays auditions, as compared to when I began auditioning in the 60s, is that all the "small" orchestra, and some major ones, came to NY and some other major cities while on tour to hold auditions. Now it's true that there was no screen, and at least on two occasions, but the same conductor, he mistook me for someone else and rejected me out of hand once he came close enough to me, I won't try to explain. I never found out the reason. I had never met him before. Today, it seems even the smallest orchestras, part time, per service orchestras that pay a few thousands dollars a year at best expect the player to come to them no matter where they may be. So they probably only get players that are close enough to keep their regular job.
So I'll refer the poster back to my original post above as to my opinion on when and where to take an audition. And my the way, there's a bit of luck in winning an audition too but one doesn't keep the job on luck. Some people play their best under presure like that and others don't.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-08-30 19:32
Ed,
My statement was well qualified, and I stand by it. I'm also cool with you disagreeing, and I can dig that you had a bad experience (or more) with unscreened auditions. I've had both good and bad experiences with screened auditions, and the same goes for unscreened. To me a screen is no indicator of the honesty of the audition. This, of course, is a separate issue from my radical opinion that these posts ought to be filled by appointment, but hey, I'm a radical.
I actually don't doubt at all that you were fair and honest the 5 times you sat on auditions for the BSO. You've always struck me as an honest guy (you're web advice for kids wanting to major in music is one of the most transparent I've read, and something I've recommended to young people over the years). But five auditions is not a large sample set, and to suggest that everyone is a scrupulous as yourself...sorry...I'm not buying it. I've seen too much, and from what I've seen, most of them are pretty well pre-determined. Your own website tells me that others are not as honest as you--how many other teachers post that sort of info?
Anyhow, I don't mean to be discouraging or cynical--just realistic. I honestly hope more folks are out there with your values on the matter. I'm just saying I don't think it's the case.
Paul Aviles,
Remember, I'm originally a New Yorker--this isn't even close to being rowdy yet! If I remember correctly, Ed is also originally from NY. So this probably counts as delicate conversation so far.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-08-30 23:27
I agree with Eric, this is not rowdy and I am from NY. :-). I should not have used the BS term and used a "kinder" term but believe me, I could have been much more nasty. q I know some orchestras do not have "open auditions" and invite a small number of players to audition but my impression was that Eric was saying was almost all the time the person was already decided who get's the job in an opened behind the screen audition where they accept 75-150 players to audition. I just can't agree so I'd like to know which "major" orchestra's Eric auditioned for and who got the job. Being in the business and having friends and some students performing in some orchestra's so I might know how that person got the job and if it was pre-determined or not. I can find out. I'm talking about the 30-40 major orchestras that have hired a permanant player, not a long time sub in the last decade that you auditioned for and felt this happened. That way I'll know if it's sour grapes or almost every orchestra is dishonest now as you implied.
By the way, Baltimore will have it's principal audition in the spring sometimes so, apply. If they accept your resume you will have a fair crack. They did just hire a one year sub, I don't know the procedure they used for that. And they recently hired a full time assistant first and Eb clarinet player. My friend on the committee told me it was handled the same as my experiences where and no one seemed to knew the player that got the job. He was just one of those that started in the preliminaries and moved into the semi finals and then the finals, all behind the screen. The way we did it before was we had nine judges, a player had to get five votes to move up to the next round. Same in the semi finals. In the finals, still behind a screen with the judges and conductor in the audience a player has to have at least three votes plus the conductors vote to have a chance to perform on a trial bases. The conductor can't make the decision themselves either way. I believe most major orchetras do it in a similiar maner, at least for the first public audition. Good conversation.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-08-31 00:11
Ed--
You can call BS on me anytime you like! I'm not at all bothered by that! Heck, you had a strong opinion--you might as well say it. I'll defend my point of view if I feel it needs to be defended. I knew a fellow New Yorker would be cool about this...
I think your question about sour grapes is completely valid. I don't have any sour grapes on this matter, and I'm more than willing to tell you at least part of my story--right out of grad school I was the bass clarinetist for a regional symphony, and I would regularly sub elsewhere too on soprano and bass. Good starting gigs for a young guy. One "big" orchestra audition I took was a totally clean audition, IMO, and was done screened. So that actually jives with your opinion. The audition in question: the National Symphony in 2000. I remember it really well--I heard several auditions before me, and felt I was the best player to that point. Went on stage, played, then went back into the green room at the Kennedy Center to pack up. The next guy was already there--he was about ten years older than me, was coming from a major opera gig, and sounded friggin' amazing. I knew immediately he was gonna blow me out of the water (I was one year out of grad school and had only been playing bass seriously for a few months). So I said "Go win this job, man. Don't fool around--win it." Not sure if he did, but he was the only one from my round to make the finals. If he won it, I can tell you, he absolutely deserved it.
I played one other "big" audition...but I'd prefer not to comment. I think certainly it was rigged. No sour grapes there either. I wasn't the best player for that job, in retrospect, and would have hated winning it (I took the audition for the money and security...sometimes it's good not to win those things).
There are other, regional orchestra auditions, that I've played screened and unscreened. Nearly every one was rigged. I WON'T go into details on those, if you don't mind.
For the record, I had to drop out of the orchestral scene in May of 2000. I had a congenital heart condition so bad off I could barely breathe. When I came back to playing after heart surgery (nearly a decade later), I made a decision to go strictly jazz, which was my first love musically. I wish everyone well in the classical community, but it isn't my thing. I'm not jealous of anyone in a symphony orchestra--believe me I don't want your jobs (though I wish we jazz guys made the money you guys do. But then again, I like not having to take orders from conductors, so you guys earn it, in a sense).
You might indeed be correct about the major auditions. I'm not being facetious when I say your call of BS might be true. I just think, despite my good experience with the National Symphony...I've heard too many stories, man. I think honest people are hard to find. And I trust you that the BSO audition will be on the up-and-up, so I'll encourage players to audition.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2015-08-31 08:37)
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2015-08-31 00:16
There are other, regional orchestra auditions, that I've played screened and unscreened. Nearly every one was rigged. I WON'T go into details on those, if you don't mind.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, come on!
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-08-31 00:38
Nope. No sour grapes there. I did okay in regional orchestras, and I don't want the gigs back. I don't want to get into individual stories regarding those because the players who won those jobs, and many other people, don't deserve to be treated as though they did something wrong--THAT would be sour grapes. I think orchestras have a right to choose who will best work with that section--and knowing that person is part of it. It's the audition process I think is wasteful and silly--NOT how those orchestras chose to use or work around that system. So you see, it's kind of the antithesis of sour grapes.
By the way, you ever gonna let us know your full identity? Didn't I hear you in Hartford once with a woodwind quintet about 25 years ago?
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2015-08-31 00:47)
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-08-31 00:47
As far as screened auditions go, take a look at who is playing tuba with Philadelphia.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2015-08-31 03:16
By the way, you ever gonna let us know your full identity? Didn't I hear you in Hartford once with a woodwind quintet about 25 years ago?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe.
What difference does it make if I disclose my identity or not?
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-08-31 03:42
In the big picture? None whatsoever, man. Post however you like. I just find it more credible when professionals who post here make their real identities available. Anonymity tends to make some people less well behaved. Make sense?
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-08-31 07:04
Well Eric I'm sorry you've had the health problems and bad experiences with so many regional orchestras but I've been talking about the major ones. I told you I can't speak for the regional or per service ones. They're a whole different animal and many are non union so they aren't required to follow the audition guide lines. I'm not sure what were trying to say with you're National Orchestra experince, how do you know if it was pre determined or not, you said you don't know if that guy you were so impressed with won or not and don't know who the winner was. I don't understand how that proves it was pre detirmend. Besides, that was your only major audition you mentioned. I don't want to continue this, we've already high jacked the original topic. I hope he learned something from all this. I'm sorry you're so bitter, or if not bitter, at least unhappy with your experience. I just want to repeat one last time, I'm only talking about the 30 - 40 MAJOR orchestra's.
I think the poster about the women, girl at the time, tuba player in Philly was trying to show that there was no way a girl still in college was the pre determined winner of a major orchestra audition. They had the choice of a great many well known experienced orchestra players vying for that top job. She won because the audition was fair and behind the screen. She's fantastic, I've heard her. That's the way most are done these day in the MAJOR orchestras. That doesn't mean there aren't any exceptions.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2015-08-31 08:17
Ed.....
You missed my point.
I'm not bitter, nor unhappy. I was only talking about what I'd observed during the time I took auditions (some big, some regional), which I took only because I was in the position to, and because they would have meant decent paying jobs. That's it. It was no big deal that they went to someone else. I'm much happier as a jazz clarinetist, which is what I always wanted to do anyhow.
I said the National Symphony audition was FAIR, and because of that, my experience SUPPORTED your view. I don't think that audition was rigged. Can't say it clearer than that. That doesn't, however, mean that I agree with your view across the board.
Count me, once again, as one who believes the audition process is not optimal. And anyone spending time and money on the audition process should be sober, keep their eyes and ears open, and make their own assessment. That's it.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2015-08-31 08:34)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-08-31 16:38
MarlboroughMan wrote:
> Count me, once again, as one who believes the audition process
> is not optimal. And anyone spending time and money on the
> audition process should be sober, keep their eyes and ears
> open, and make their own assessment. That's it.
>
And have a Plan B.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-09-01 17:26
Settled. If you think you are good enough to win an audition go for it because that's the only way you will know for sure if you are good enough to get an orchestra job. After taking a few you will have an idea where you stand having listened to others and see if you ever move up into the semi and finals. Just be realistic. Listen to some of the other players and see if you can compete. Apparently the National Sympnony had a fair audition according to Eric and the Baltimore Sympnony have fair auditions according to me. Based on what Eric says, not many others do, based on what I say, most are fair. You decide yourself but for sure, you will never get a job if you don't ever audition. As I said, regional and per service orchestras are another story. Don't spend a lot of money to audition for a job that pays only a few thousand dollars a year.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2015-09-01 22:39)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-09-01 18:11
I have nothing to contribute here, other than to say that this thread is a neat illustration of the level of experience represented here on BBoard. And of the willingness to help others, and (pretty nicely if you ask me) discuss and sort through areas of disagreement. Well done, all of you.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-09-01 20:54
Hey - to the thread's point-
Take the audition. Introduce yourself to everyone you can, or want to. On your first few, listen intently to the warm-ups, the run-throughs. You'll probably make some great friends, and see the same crowd at other auditions. Keep an open mind, do your best. Mostly, enjoy the process- you're paying dues here! What do performers do? We perform!
Just Do It!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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