 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2015-07-31 05:41
I was just reading the product description of D'Addario Reserve Classic reeds, and it explains that the reeds have "a thicker tip for clear articulation." I have always been under the impression that a thinner tip helps articulation both with regard to response and clarity. I feel like I have read this in numerous books (though I'd need to look it up to verify), and in my own experience, when a reed doesn't articulate well (response, clarity, and speed), thinning the tip often improves it. Vandoren describes V•12 reeds as having a thicker tip, which "gives body to the attack," but I wouldn't equate this to "clarity" necessarily. Just wondering other people's experience and opinions on reed tip thickness and it's effect on articulation.
P.S. Guess how many time's I tried to type "clarity" and typed "clarinet" instead? Answer: All of the times. Including the one in this P.S.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-31 06:42
My question would be, thicker than what? Than V.12? 56 Rue lepic? VD Traditionals? Than the older discontinued Rico Reserve Classics?
Using one of Ben Armato's Perfecta-reed dial gauges, I don't find any difference among those 3 VD models or the V21 and a couple of d'Addario Reverve Classics I just measured. They are all thicker at the tip than the old Rico Reserve Classics. Anyone else's mileage could easily differ, though. I don't really know how reliable the dial in the Perfecta-reed is, and I've only measured a few of each specifically for this post. I know Vandoren claims different tip thicknesses for each of its models.
But then, response, as well as a reed's tonal qualities, come from more places than than just the tip. And if you use an ATG block on your reeds, as many here do (as I do for some reeds), the tips won't remain at their manufactured thicknesses very long anyway.
Karl
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2015-07-31 08:04
My guess would be thicker than the regular D'Addario Reserve reeds, which advertise as having "a standard tip thickness for quick response." I assume clarity and response go pretty hand-in-hand. I am asking strictly about it's effect on articulation. It goes without saying that things like balance and depth of sound have less to do with the tip.
I actually ONLY use my ATG for final adjustments and thinning the tip for that very reason. If I use it for anything else, the tip becomes too thin or imbalanced (if I work only one side, I always go over the tip a couple of times to even things out, otherwise it chirps badly).
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-07-31 17:11
orchestr wrote:
> I am asking strictly about it's effect on
> articulation. It goes without saying that things like balance
> and depth of sound have less to do with the tip.
>
Maybe it's a definition problem - for me response *is* how the reed reacts when you apply articulation (with your tongue), so "clear articulation" in the sound depends on good, quick, clean response from the reed.
> I actually ONLY use my ATG for final adjustments and thinning
> the tip for that very reason. If I use it for anything else,
> the tip becomes too thin
So, if the tip is out of a nominal range in either direction, it won't respond well, which will result IMO in sluggish articulation. My own opinion, FWIW, is that within that nominal range reed response (and resulting clarity of articulation) depends on the player's mechanics and mouthpiece characteristics, probably in that order and the reed thickness becomes part of the overall reed design and not a separately controlled parameter.
Of course, the quality of response also depends on the match between the mouthpiece and the overall stiffness of the reed - a tip .009" inch thick won't respond at all and no better than a .007" tip if the reed is too stiff for the mouthpiece it's placed on, and if the whole reed collapses because it's too soft, the tip thickness is just so much wood pressing against the tip rail.
I think it's a refreshing change of rhetoric from "produces a dark, rich tone," but it's just as meaningless. There are too many other factors involved.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-07-31 22:33
Ditto.
and I double down on the "meaningless" thing
............Paul Aviles
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Author: as9934
Date: 2015-08-01 22:24
I have found from personal experience that the Reserve Classics are a but more full bodied and rich, but a little slower on the articulation than the rico grand concert select thicks 3.5's and the Vandoren Blue Box 3.5's I played before.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Tom Kmiecik
Date: 2015-08-03 19:01
While it is true that having a thinner tip allows the reed to vibrate more freely and makes for an easier articulation, there is a balancing point between ease of articulation and quality/clarity of articulation. It's very similar to how a thinner reed can produce a clear sound, but there's a point where it can easily tip from "clear" to "spread" (and on the opposite end from "dark" to "fuzzy").
Our point about tip thickness for Reserve Classic is in relation to both the old Rico Reserve/Reserve Classic, as well as the current D'Addario Reserve (not Classic) offering. While the actual tip is thicker in terms of amount of material, the tip of the reed is actually slightly more flexible than that of the D'Addario Reserve reed. Thick blank reeds have a thicker heel, meaning that the tip of the reed is comprised of less dense cane from closer to the center of the plant (traditional blank reeds' tips contain material from closer to the bark, which is quite a bit more dense). This makes it so that a thick blank reed actually feels more flexible than a traditional blank reed of the same design. If the Reserve Classic reed were designed without this thicker tip, there would be issues with longevity as well as quality of sound of articulation as a result. When we redesigned this reed last summer, we added more material toward the tip in order to provide the clarity and ease of articulation while still having enough material to allow for a focused sound. Of course there are so many other variables that play into this (vamp length, shape of the tip, taper, etc.), but our artists and beta testers found that the current Reserve Classic reed offers clarity and body of articulation while still maintaining good tonal characteristics.
I hope this helps clear things up a little, although I may have opened a new can of worms by bringing up some of these other variables! In my experiences as a clarinetist and teacher, I find it is very hard to explain characteristics of music and equipment with words that are universally understood and agreed upon, and I'm sure as avid BBoard posters you all understand this more than anyone! I've always encouraged my own students and colleagues to play and try as many products as they can in order to draw their own conclusions based on experience. I'm always happy to answer questions or elaborate on my use of terminology in any way, so feel free to email me if I can help!
Best,
Tom
Tom Kmiecik
Artist Relations, D'Addario Woodwinds
tkmiecik@daddario.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-08-03 20:19
Tom, thanks very much for the clarification. Do you know (and are you allowed to say) how the tip dimensions of the Reserves and Reserve Classics compare to the Big 3 Vandoren models and their new V21?
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2015-08-04 17:01
I think it's more about how it's proportioned that makes articulation easier or more difficult for the indidual player. The tip of a #5 will be thicker than a # 2 reed as an example. Some players will articulate just as well with a 5 than with a 2. So in my opinion it's more than just how "thick" the tip is but in relation to the rest of the cut.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-08-04 17:12
Ed, at least as far as Vandoren is concerned, everything I've ever read says that their reeds are all cut to the same dimensions and sorted according to the stiffness of the cane itself. A #2 and a #5 are the same measurements - tip thickness included. Tom didn't say anything in his post to imply that d'Addario does it differently.
I agree with you that the proportions are more important than the dimension of a specific area, which is why different reed models, using different overall designs (proportions), feel (and maybe sound, depending on the player) different.
Karl
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2015-08-05 04:02
Thank you to everyone for your input. I have also heard that Vandorens are all cut the same, THEN flex-tested by a gauge to determine strength. I've never measured reeds if different strengths myself, so I don't know.
Tom, it does make sense that for the spongier inner-tube cane, you'd need a slightly thicker tip, and also that you can only go so far when you thin the tip. I remember reading an article by Charles West ("Some Comments on Single Reeds", The Clarinet, December 1998) where he says the tip thickness that seems to work best for him is .003-.005", with the corners of the tip around .005-007" (he explains in the article why the corners shouldn't be the same as the tip). Great article, I encourage everyone to check it out if they can.
I wanted to clarify that my initial question was about tip thickness with all other factors being equal, as Mr. West puts it. Of course the thickness of the blank, length of the vamp, slope of the vamp, slope to the sides, mouthpiece facing/model/material/rail thickness/age, instrument, embouchure, etc. each make a significant difference. What I'm asking is, on one speciic setup, if you have two reeds that are virtually identical, one with a thicker tip, and one with a thinner tip, what is the difference with regard to articulation? For me, with a Vandoren Traditional reed (which I've found to have thicknesses around .005-.006"), thinning the tip with an ATG block improves both the clarity, response, and speed of articulation, often without any negative side effects. The only time this doesn't work, and this is going back to what Tom said, is when a reed is already on the soft side, thinning the tip often makes the tip close off entirely with any embouchure pressure. Those are my 2 cents.
To quote Mr. West's article, "Interestingly and ironically, thinning the tip of a reed often darkens the sound, all other factors being left equal. ... A relatively thick heart and a relatively thin tip makes a more dark but still colorful sound than a thicker tip and thinner heart." So maybe the answer to my question really is, "It depends."
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