 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Psolomon
Date: 2015-06-21 08:45
So as I opened yet another box of Vandoren reeds, first stripping the box the box of its plastic film, opening the box and chucking the paper panphlet, opening my reed from its plastic wrapper, and then finally receiving my reed in its plastic case, which I would also chuck into the garbage, I couldn't help but wonder:
Is all this really necessary?
Of course, the plastic case is standard to make sure the reed doesn't get damaged in transit, and the cardboard box itself is just fine, but does this "flow pack" actually help? Vandoren says it insures that that the reed arrives in the exact same condition as when it was cut in France, but does that actually mean anything? Who says the conditions in France are perfect? Even if they are, what's the point if they are going to be different from the place where they are broken in and actually used? With the extensive break-in process most classical clarinetists use, the reed is going to change a LOT from its original form either way. And of course: WHY DO YOU NEED TO PUT A LITTLE PAPER ADVERT IN EVERY SINGLE BOX? And why rap the box in film???
Compare a box of Vandoren reeds to, say D'addario (formerly Rico): Cardboard box; open it to find reeds in plastic cases. I personally do not play on these reeds, but I know people who swear by them, despite their lack of "flow pack"
Is all this extra garbage really necessary to ensure a quality reed? No offense to Vandoren, but even with all this extra "insurance", only about half the reeds in a box are actually playable. I've been trying to figure out how to recycle all this garbage, but why make this trash in the first place?
I'm a tree-hugger and well aware of it. While I take great care to make sure the plastic cases go into the recycling bin, and the pamphlets go in the paper garbage, that won't change the fact that all this extra single-use garbage can't be good for the environment.
Is there something I'm missing?
Bonus question: how do you guys dispose of the actual reeds? I, like most, just throw them in the garbage, but I've been thinking that, since they're wood, maybe they could go into compost?
Post Edited (2015-06-21 08:53)
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Author: kthln.hnsn
Date: 2015-06-21 08:59
I haven't used Vandorens in nearly 9 years, but yes I'd say it's pretty pointless. But it's what people expect and some probably think the product quality is better than others because of it. If it's truly bothersome to you and you feel strongly about, write the company and stop using their reeds. (Personally I use Mitchell Laurie, rarely have a complete dud in the box). But really, yes, I agree with your points on the environmental effects and the necessity, or lack thereof.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-21 15:07
I occasionally get bent out of shape about this myself. ORIGINALLY the "wrapping" (as far as I can remember) started harmlessly with the Rue Lepic. They came in a flat box (reeds lined up on their sides in front of you as you removed the lid. But there was a plastic insert to this flat box that had an aluminum seal over it. In other words, all ten reeds were under ONE seal.
Now for me (and I am sure a certain percentage of us), I open and process reeds by the box. However, I am trying to be more understanding of my fellow clarinet players and there maybe a good number of you that deal with either a reed at a time OR odd numbers from boxes. So the individual wrapping of reeds is probably an attempt to make everyone happy (except the tree huggers amongst us).
I would say though, if you are not getting six reeds that you can rotate through (at least in the cuts above the 'standard' cut) in a given box, then you could stand to try another method of breaking in your reeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y0Zv3EZ-Ms
Something akin to this WILL WORK for you.......I promise!!!! I do five minutes a day per reed for about 4 to 6 days before playing on a reed for a full session of practice or a performance. It works for me. Just plowing into playing on a reed will cause it to soak up too much water during play. I also find that adjusting reeds (particularly the better cuts like the Rue Lepic, V12 and V21s) prior to allowing them to settle only causes mis-adjustment when the reeds ARE settled.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2015-06-21 17:13
Reeds used to come laid flat in layers in a box surrounded with paper and Styrofoam padding. It's true that once in a while you'd get a broken one. When whatever company was distributing Lurie reeds when they first started using plastic holders, I think back in the '70s, I complained about those to their marketing department. I thought then that the use of plastic gave too little benefit in exchange for the environmental impact of our increasing use of disposable plastic "stuff" we already were already hearing about. For awhile I sent the holders back (at the marketing director's suggestion - he probably thought he had a nut case on the phone and didn't want to provoke me). Eventually, the other reed makers started packing their own reeds in individual plastic holders.
Our locality now pays a large national company to collect and recycle our plastic, along with glass, metal and paper, into something we can hope is useful, and I throw the reed cases into the recycle bucket. At least it doesn't add to the nearby landfill.
So, I'm absolutely with you about Vandoren's packaging. To me, it's pointless to have them arrive in the same atmospheric bubble in which they were packed in Paris. I know a number of players who take Vandoren reeds out of the packaging - all of it - and let them sit for varying amounts of time, in theory to re-acclimate them to local conditions. It's wasted plastic and wasted time at the user end to unpack it all.
There are still reed makers who pack their product without all the falderall. Gonzalez reeds,and the Pilgerstorfers that Clark Fobes sells come in basic individual cardboard holders inside cardboard boxes. I wonder if anyone would complain if everyone went back to all-cardboard packaging.
Karl
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Author: kthln.hnsn
Date: 2015-06-21 17:24
I forgot, there was one obscure reed brand I tried that had all the reeds rolled up in a very cheap plastic/vinyl pouch with a slot for each reed. The plastic was recyclable and it seems to have use less plastic as most other reed brands. If I remember the reeds were all junk, but the packaging was unique.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-06-21 17:35
Paul- With respect to not adjusting reeds until broken in... I am still working with Vandoren traditional blue box as the only reeds I like except the 2 D'Addario Reserve I just started yesterday (nice!). And I noted some time ago Tom Ridenour on his ATG video says to adjust away on new reeds. So mostly that's what I've done, though I've tried to be restrained about it until I've played a reed at least a few days.
I have dabbled with your suggestion to not touch ATG until reeds are mostly or fully broken in. But with Vandorens that has been very painful- most reeds are too stiff for me out of the box, and that just about ruins my play / practice time, unless you think trying to beef up my chops on too stiff reeds is somehow "good for me" (old school thinking if you ask me). I have come to view such blowing time as not only not progress, but negative, things are so nice when a reed is nice (music progress, creativity that is missing during reed struggles). So I have concluded that I MUST adjust to decent playability every time if needed, even for one of those initial 5 minute (1 song in my case) plays. Unless I plan to pitch over half of them on first bad toot, but I'd lose a lot of eventual winners that way.
Which brings me to another point about reed qualities. EVEN IF I eventually could depend on EIGHT, NINE, or TEN wonderful winner reeds out of a box of 10 new Acme Wonderreed Plus's, if I have to suffer through hours of bad reed breakin and adjustment cycles to get there, that STINKS. That's often been the story for me with the Vandoren blues.
My sample of 2 D'Addario Reserves is encouraging, as is the report of others here- that out of the box they play great and consistently. On day one both played super, but by 5 minutes they both got a bit mushy, as normal for a new reed. They're both waiting for day 2 play. I hope hope hope hope they will behave differently than the Vandorens, in that they will stay nice through the entire breakin cycle until they reach "perfection". That would be in contrast to Vandoren, Leuthner, and (only one) AW that could start nice, and go through a few days of awful play, before returning to niceness. All of which has meant I can't pitch bad playing reeds before day 7 or 8 because I could be throwing away eventual good ones. And that means bad "lost" play time on nasty playing reeds, UGH UGH UGH.
Whew, my rant is wearing me out, you too maybe. Anyway, I suggest that a criterion for judging reed performance is- how they behave through the breakin cycle. Maybe, just maybe, I will resettle on the new D'Addarios and will have no future reason for reed rants. Would be nice.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-06-21 17:37)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-06-21 17:59
Philip,
I agree with you 100%. This really is a lot of unnecessary packaging and I've met several clarinet players who feel the same way.
Would you consider starting a petition to send to Vandoren, to see if we can get them to change things?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-21 19:18
Two interesting points above:
Petition the company to change the packaging: But to what? I liked the Rue Lepic concept of the full box under a single seal. I use the individual plastic sleeves thank you. So I don't know if any one concept would gain enough support (a good majority). Just a note: because of the size and convenience as a carrier, I still have about four old Rue Lepic boxes that I still use today.
Wasting time breaking in reeds: Now I can get about eight usable reeds per box. I can rotate through those eight (and occasionally use numbers nine and ten) for two months or so. I would just ask, "how many reeds do you get with a shorter break in period?" And further, "how long do you get reliable performance out of them?" "Are those results worth getting to an end result faster?" Nuccio only plays a few notes (not anywhere close to five whole minutes) on the first couple of plays (days), increasing time (notes) on successive days.
Just tryin' to be helpful NOT preachy
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-06-21 21:06
I also think the Vandoren packaging is over the top- perhaps designed to make us think there's extra science in their approach, a marketing rather than practical ploy. Or not, maybe they're really on to something. But I'd be more inclined to believe the hype if their product was more consistent out of the box.
Paul- I like hearing what works for everybody, and why they think and choose what they do. I've wondered if early reed breakin is another 80/20 situation- get 80% of the benefit from 20% of the ideal time- that would be 1 minute not 5. How about just soaking in water for a few minutes for 5 or 10 days before even playing it? And if that were good, why can't the mfg do that so I wouldn't need to? Or do some mfg already do that? "Pre-broken in reeds"? Why not? Certainly worth a premium price, especially if strength graded AFTER breakin. Is anybody listening?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2015-06-21 21:48
Agreed 100% about the foil packaging. The environmental impact is minimal - but it's just irritating to see them doing something so pointless. I remember the days when Vandorens came loose in cardboard boxes, and would be happy to go back to that - but the plastic holders do have value in preventing warping when they dry out. Without the holders, you'd need a big reed case to store them.
Regarding "pre-broken in reeds", it's not hard to arrange this. I generally only get 2 decent ones per box, but I started swapping the useless 8 with another player whose needs are different to mine. Then we both find ones we can use. Probably all reeds are good - you just need to match them with a suitable player.
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Author: Psolomon
Date: 2015-06-22 00:50
Thanks for all your responses, everyone! I'm gonna talk to David Gould, who runs the Vandoren NYC Showroom, about this and see if anything develops. A petition wouldn't be a bad idea, so I'll let everyone know if I start something.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2015-06-22 01:25
I have never heard of anyone who believes that the individual foil packaging has actually made any noticeable improvement to the playing quality of these reeds.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-22 03:21
Yeah, I guess I never really addressed whether the individual OR the group seal even did anything.
I think if you have reeds sitting for a long time (and I mean five or more years at a time), then I think having some barrier to the vagaries of local humidity (or lack thereof) would make a difference. If however you buy and use within the year I don't think it really makes a difference
I could be convinced to go to the older packaging (two stacks of five side by side in a plastic or cardboard box) if that makes more sense to everyone else.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2015-06-22 04:21
At the risk of showing my age, Vandoren reeds used to come laid flat in a flat, light purple box with a hinged lid and a pad of paper over them. What was wrong with that?
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2015-06-22 18:09
Yes!!--Reeds can definitely be put into compost.
The cardboard is recyclable. Unfortunately, the plastic cases are not marked with a recycling symbol, so technically they aren't.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2015-06-22 18:20
It is a Vandoren thing, I believe. The Vandoren super-duper Hydro Case for humidity-controlled storage pretty much requires storage in the plastic sleeve. As far as the sealed foil package, I usually get a laugh out of folks explaining that it keeps the new reed prepared just as Jaques played it, before sending it out for sale!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: pewd
Date: 2015-06-22 19:20
> the plastic cases are not marked with a recycling symbol
yes they are.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2015-06-22 19:33
I stand corrected. My vision for small print--not so much.
Time for my annual visit to the optometrist, I guess.
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Author: claaaaaarinet!!!!
Date: 2015-06-24 08:01
I guess I'll cast one vote in favor of the flow packs. Having endured many dry, cold Minnesota winters and the weather fluctuations when seasons change, I've become a firm believer in humidity control as being key to reed consistency from one sitting to the next. Given that some cuts and strengths of reeds may spend months or years in a warehouse or store's back room before I buy them, it's reassuring to know that the reeds aren't going to be completely dried out. Also, from a retail standpoint, the flow packs make it possible to sell individual reeds, which customers sometimes appreciate, and for Vandoren to send samples in a more convenient way. They also might help with the anti-counterfeit campaign. Not sure on that last point, though...
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2015-06-24 22:34
Living in the Pacific Northwest, where we actually eat tree bark twice a day and love our endangered salmon to the point of wanting to tear down those dams that generate so much cheap energy, I can at least find one redeeming feature of the little foil packages. When opening the foil, I hold it close to my nose so I can inhale some of that wonderful French air. That is about as close as I will ever get to being there. So, I guess I agree with you about 97.625%.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-06-26 01:17
I would certainly be open to accept data that showed an overall better reed product being delivered to the consumer when Vandoren foil wraps them, but I suspect, like the paper advertisement inside, and the foil wrapper,and the design of the packaging, etc., that all of these decisions were motivated by product testing that yielded Vandoren the greatest profit margins.
I don't think they trade off quality for profit, I think they seek to maximize profit without quality reduction: which is nothing short of management's responsibilty to the Firm's stakeholders.
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Author: EBC
Date: 2015-06-28 22:02
To address the OP's bonus question:
When my municipality began organic waste pickup, I contacted the department in question and asked them what they thought of disposing of cane in this way. They pointed out that if they could handle bones, they could probably handle reed cane. I've been chucking 'em in the compost ever since. While I don't know much about household composting, I would imagine it is also an option.
Eric
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Author: lordraptor1
Date: 2015-06-29 10:32
if you think vandoren reed packaging is bad i would hate to see everyones opinions on guitar string packaging practices ROFL
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2015-06-29 18:26
When you call David at Vandoren I'm going to bet 35 cents that his story is slightly different. Several years ago a country was selling a box of reeds that looked exactly like the outside of the Vandoren box. The packaging was changed by Vandoren mostly to foil the criminals trying to capitalize on Vandoren's name.
Just a guess.
Scott Brodt
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-06-30 22:32
I recycle dead reeds by giving them "the wall test" first (to prevent myself from changing my mind) and then tossing them into the wood chip mulch in my garden.
My yard harbors a strange pair of squirrels. One, "the Diva," has an enormously fluffy strawberry blonde tail. Hollywood stars pay buckets of money to fancy salons to color their hair to that hue. As she saunters slowly, waving her fancy tail, other squirrels get out of her way. The other oddball, "the Punk," is a runt with peculiar white stripes on his shoulders, as if he tried to pass himself off as a sergeant but didn't quite get the design right. He likes to jump up on the window sill and chatter and bang on the glass to taunt Jane Feline, while she sits on the inside sill and hisses death-threats at him (to no avail, since she's an indoor cat -- and the Punk knows it). Well, a few weeks ago, I saw the Punk squatting on his haunches out in the garden and gnawing on the tip one of my discarded dead reeds that he held up to his mouth with both of his little front paws. I don't even want to know what he thought he was doing.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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