 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-06-06 00:46
I went to a high school band concert last night (my son is the band director). He seats the flutes to his left and the clarinets to his right. I know that there are some college band directors who find this better than the other way around.
I honestly think every band I've ever played in has been seated the other way - clarinets where first violins would be in an orchestra, although flutes have not always been all the way around on the other side. I asked my son what the reason is and it had to do with the angle of the flutists' faces relative to the audience as they play.
How many of you play or have played in bands that set up this way? I don't imagine it makes any difference to the clarinets' sound projection, and I'm not sure the flutes' projection is affected much either. What are your experiences?
Karl
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2015-06-06 02:13
I belong to two bands
In one clarinets to the right
The other to the left
Clarinets to right of them,
Clarinets to left of them,
Clarinets in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-06-06 02:18
All 3 bands that I have regularly played with in recent years have the solo clarinets on the conductors extreme right and most (perhaps all?) miltary bands in the UK seem to use this set up.
However when I was in the army 50 years back our band (The Life Guards) used the opposite seating arrangement with solo clarinets where first violins would be.
In more recent years they have reversed this set up and I did raise question why on our bands website but never found a really good answer. Some members felt that the old arrangement with solo clarinets and solo cornets in close proximity had advantages for balance.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2015-06-06 02:34
I have played with both configurations. Some with flute and clarinet soloists on either end, and one with the soloists in the middle.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-06 03:18
John Paynter used to like the flutes on the left. The theory is that the open end of the instrument faces (a little more) toward the audience, allowing them to balance more advantageously. Paynter also put all the soloists in the middle so you heard the solo voices from center.
Personally I'm not completely sold on the idea since we don't seat the flute players FACING house right (openings pointed AT the audience), nor do we sit the horn players facing the back of the stage (for the same reason). So it is just personal choice.
That said I applaud ANY thinking and individuality (no matter how specious) when it comes to musical direction.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-06-06 03:47
Up until recently my high school band director had 1st clarinets on his left, oboes in the middle, and 1st flutes on his right, with the 2nd and 3rd parts in the second row.
However, lately he's moved to a completely different setup... not sure if I like it or not. The 3 oboists have their own row in the very front, all the flutes are in the 2nd row, and all the clarinets, bass clarinets, and bassoons are in the 3rd row. He also has me and the principal flute/piccolo on the inside of our respective rows (supposedly so we don't stick out as much?), with the 2nd and 3rd parts on the outside.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-06 03:49
Attachment: concertbandlayout.png (54k)
Attached is how the concert band I play in is usually seated as our MD is a from the Royal Marines, so pretty much the same seating plan as their bands.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MSK
Date: 2015-06-06 05:03
As a "band parent", I've been an audience member for 6 different bands this year. The list includes middle & high school school bands, for local school as well as county honor bands & All State bands. I think I saw every arrangement listed above. Bands I have personally belonged to (generally in the 1980s) tended to put flutes in the entire front row and clarinets on Conductor's left in the next three rows. I've seen first chair clarinets and flutes on the outside edge more often than in the center, but there seems to be a growing trend toward putting them in the center.
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2015-06-06 14:11
The group I play with has flutes on the entire first row, principal on conductor's left, piccolo on conductor's right. The clarinets are on the right, starting on the second row, so I am just behind the piccolo. The oboes and bassoons are on the left, behind the first flute. That puts me a long way from the solo flute, oboe, and bassoon. Which does not make the passages with solo clarinet and solo flute or solo clarinet and solo oboe any easier to coordinate!
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2015-06-06 15:10
I play in a symphonic wind band in the UK.. He has the same setup as you mention Karl - clarinets to his right (two rows - 1sts in front, 2nds and 3rds behind) with saxes behind that, and flutes to his left. Eefer and Oboe sit between the clarinets and flutes in the middle of the front row.
Conductor is ex armed forces, so slightly surprising (or is it?) to see that we're in a different arrangement to the one Chris P has attached.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2015-06-06 16:07
Hi All,
In a whole lot of years of playing, I can think of only one band I was in that had the clarinets on the director's right. I hated it.
Here is a template for band seating. A neat little program.
http://www.bgreco.net/band/
HRL
PS Put me anywhere except in front of the trumpets.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-06-06 16:24
The 1st-chair clarinet is the concertmaster and, in my opinion, should sit in the concertmaster's position to the left of the conductor. I've never played in a band that used any other seating plan.
And as Hank says, I'd do anything to avoid sitting in front of a brass player.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2015-06-06 20:14
In my band, solo clarinet is to the left of the conductor. It then goes 1st 2nd 3rd clarinets, Eb, 1st oboe 2nd oboe 2nd flute 1st flute.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2015-06-06 20:27
>PS Put me anywhere except in front of the trumpets.
Amen to that! I have thought for a long time, that every trumpet player should have to spend an entire rehearsal sitting in front of the rest of the trumpet section. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-06-06 20:47
As I usually play oboe in concert bands and usually sat right in the centre of the frontline, I would rather have the flutes on the conductor's left which puts them on my right as that way they're not right in my ear'ole! Some bands in my area have the layout reversed in the front two rows which is better in that respect.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2015-06-06 22:14
Wind ensembles aside, I've often wondered why the woodwinds are placed way in the rear of most orchestral seating arrangements behind all the strings and, often, directly in front of the brass and percussion who always overpower. Why shouldn't the woodwinds be placed in the center of the front two rows where they wouldn't be overpowered by everyone else and could easily be heard during solos? Just wondering, *why*............
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2015-06-06 22:19
Sitting in front of a good trombone player can be worse on your ears than sitting in front of a good trumpet player.
The exception: many years ago, playing alto sax, I sat in front of the band's first trumpets and behind the horn section. I give those people credit for the hearing aids I wear today.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-06-07 02:47
William wrote:
> Wind ensembles aside, I've often wondered why the woodwinds are
> placed way in the rear of most orchestral seating arrangements
> behind all the strings and, often, directly in front of the
> brass and percussion who always overpower.
I saw a concert in Philadelphia back in the '60s conducted by Stokowsky. He had the woodwinds on risers on the conductor's right at the outside of the semicircle, so the outer players on that side were woodwinds. I wasn't aware enough back then of the problems of seating to have known if it was an improvement or not, but it did get the woodwinds away from the brass, which were in back and more toward the center.
Karl
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-06-07 04:49
In one of the bands I play in, flutes are to the conductor's left because none of the clarinets wanted the piccolo playing in their ear! We love it!
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2015-06-07 06:59
I was a school Band Director for 19 years and professional clarinetist since 1973. I've never seen the clarinets and flutes switched.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-06-07 07:14
Karl, that's a very interesting seating you saw from Stokowski. It was my belief (told to me many years ago) that a big part of the "Philadelphia Sound" was that Stokowski would have his first flute player double the first violin parts. That would be a harder "blend" with the seating you witnessed. Of course Stokowski was always experimenting and changing.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-06-07 08:05
This was well into Ormandy's tenure. Stokowski hadn't conducted the PO from the time he left in the '30s until his return in 1962 as an observance of the 50th anniversary of his Philadelphia debut. I think the concert I remember was one the performances in that '62 series. I pretty clearly remember Gigliotti on one of the risers to Stokie's right playing the clarinet solos in Procession of the Sardar from Caucasian Sketches, which had been on the original 1912 debut program. The orchestra's sound was no longer his specifically, and it was established enough that he didn't need to do anything in particular to encourage or rebuild it.
I don't know when he first decided to try the winds-on-the-right scheme. He had probably used it before in Houston or New York, and I don't think he arranged the PO that way when he was its MD. You're right that he was noted for experimenting, sometimes in outlandish ways. The next time I saw one of his concerts in Philadelphia, the orchestra was seated conventionally.
Karl
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2015-06-07 19:18
In a quartet or trio situation having flute on the left would help the flute projection. It seems reasonable this would also work in band. From my own testing it seems clarinets are louder inherently. (db meter) so the flutes need help.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-06-07 19:40
Arnoldstang wrote:
> In a quartet or trio situation having flute on the left would
> help the flute projection.
Why? The sound doesn't come from the end of the flute any more than it comes from the bell of a clarinet.
Karl
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2015-06-08 07:00
That's true but I still hold that flutes will project more on the left. If you want to pursue this line of thought imagine the clarinets were pointing their instruments to the back of the stage. This is how flutes are pointed when they play on the right side. Although flutes aren't as directional as trumpets there is some direction to them. Ask a few flutists which side they would prefer to sit on?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2015-06-08 09:02
I'm a little confused here - since when did flutes have trouble projecting?
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2015-06-08 16:24
GeorgeL wrote,
>Sitting in front of a good trombone player can be worse on your ears than sitting in front of a good trumpet player.>
Yup. I sat in front of the first trombone player in my high school orchestra. He played well, but yipes -- the trombone's sound comes out the bell, and the length of the trombone puts that bell right behind the ears of the person sitting in front of it. I think the higher-pitched sound of a trumpet is harder to take at close range than the sound of a trombone, but the trumpet's bell is just enough farther back to mitigate the difference.
To make matters worse with the trombone, the seats are generally staggered, so that everyone can see the conductor. In my orchestra, I finally worked up the nerve to beg the conductor to move the brasses' row back a bit, so that the trombone's bell wouldn't stick out *in between* my head and the second clarinetist's head -- blasting right into our ears.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2015-06-08 22:23
I have found some support for my view on this matter. It is found in page 15 of a page from Midwestclinic.org. It pertains to balance in a woodwind quintet. The seating position has the flute on the left to help projection.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-06-08 22:57
Arnoldstang wrote:
> Ask a few flutists
> which side they would prefer to sit on?
>
I imagine they'd prefer to sit on the left (as the audience sees them) because they have more room for the flute.
There is something to the idea that a flutist's tendency to turn slightly toward the right could give sitting on the left an advantage in terms of visual contact with the audience and maybe even with the conductor. I was mostly interested to know if this is a concept in band seating that's more popular than I had realized. Apparently, there's a great deal of variety in the way band directors set up their players. This discussion has made me start to think whether changing things might work better for my high-school-age band when we tart again in September.
Karl
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2015-06-09 01:09
My college bands sits: (L-R)
Trumpets-Euphoniums-Trombones-Tuba? (I usually don't look this far back...)
Horns-Saxes
Clarinets-Eb Clarinet-Bass Clarinet-Bassoon
Flutes-Piccolo-Oboes
Principals usually sit towards the center...that way, Flute 1, Piccolo and Oboe 1 are together; Clarinet 1 and Eb are together; And Lead Sax and Horn 1 are together in the center, and able to communicate to each other pretty well.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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