 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Irwin J
Date: 2015-04-12 20:50
I've got a Festival Greenline. I was under the impression that the greenline powder epoxy combination is what makes them impervious to changes (especially extreme ones) in humidity that sometime cause wooden horns to crack. And yet when I first pick up my Greenline, it plays somewhat flat until after playing a good 5 to 10 minutes when it to return to more accurate intonation. Is that a change in my own muscles that is changing the intonation, or is it a change in the physical characteristics of the Greenline. And if it is a change in the Greenline, how can that be given its powder/epoxy makeup?
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-04-12 20:57
It's a change in temperature, not physical characteristics, of clarinets that affects intonation. The powder/epoxy makeup of Greenlines still absorb heat the same way wood does. They have a greater dimensional stability than traditional wood and won't warp over time, and are impervious to cracking, but as they heat up, sound waves travel faster though the instrument and therefore play sharper.
If it were physical characteristics that affected intonation, the opposite would be true: The instrument would heat up, causing it to expand, and a longer and wider instrument would play lower. The dimensional changes to a clarinet are negligible as it changes in temperature, it's just the temperature of the vibrating air column that is important.
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Author: ChiTownClarinet
Date: 2015-04-12 21:02
I play a festival greenline as well. I notice the same thing, it definitely needs a little warm up to get to pitch and it does vary a little by ambient temperature, humidity, etc.
What I do notice is that once warmed up it is far more stable than a pure grenadilla instrument. It holds pitch very well no matter indoor, outdoor, humid, arid, warm, cold, etc.
In the wind ensemble I play in, I'm the only one on a greenline in our clarinet section. What I've noticed is that as we've been rehearsing for a while, I have to adjust my instrument to the section, which has invariably gone sharp as a whole. However, when I check it, if I don't adjust anything I'll stay at 440 with remarkable consistency and without effort. So I end up tuning to the section and ensemble as a whole, which means I adjust more.
But I love the stability overall, and the fact I never have to oil or worry about cracks, outside of dropping the instrument.
In fact, I recently ordered a greenline Eb clarinet as I don't want to go back to regular grenadilla. Can't wait till it comes!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-12 21:13
A cold clarinet plays flat because:
1. Initially, the air inside is cold.
2. It takes a while for the wood to warm up so that it doesn't cool the air.
3. Wood expands as the humidity rises.
4. Wood, including the bore, expands as it gets warm. See http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/will-a-hole-cut-into-a-metal-disk-expand-or-shrink-when-the-disc-is-heated. Exactly the same is true of the Greenline material. In fact, plastics change more with temperature than wood.
5. When you take your first breath and start playing, the initial air is not at body temperature, which lowers the pitch. Inhale through your nose to make sure your airstream starts warm.
When you put the instrument together, first put the barrel on the top joint and stick it in your armpit or down your pants.
Ken Shaw
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-04-12 22:33
Ken, I have to disagree about the wood expanding. As I stated above, this would make the clarinet play flatter, not sharper. It is simply the hotter temperature encouraging one's air column to vibrate more quickly that makes a clarinet play sharper as it warms up.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-04-12 23:10
I think you will find that soundwaves don't actually travel faster but that as the air inside the clarinet warms up it becomes less dense it's mass decreases and therefore the frequency of the vibrations and hence the pitch increases.
Consider say violin or guitar strings, the lower strings are thicker and so have much greater mass and so vibrate more slowly. I know tension and length also matter but in these cases there is very similar tension in all strings and the lengths are identical.
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Author: qualitycontrol
Date: 2015-04-12 23:22
I am in no way an acoustician, but you think that a warm clarinet is noticeably lighter than a cold one? I have never noticed this.
The comparison to strings doesn't seem to hold true to me, the clarinet is not vibrating, it's the air column, whereas the strings are actually vibrating on the violin. I don't think the mass of the violin body would have much effect on pitch (on resonance and projection, yes.)
If I'm reading your post correctly, are you saying that as the mass decreases the frequency of the vibrations also decreases? This again would mean a lower pitch, not a higher pitch.
I'm sure the change in mass and size of a clarinet do have minuscule effect on pitch, but I stand by my first affirmation that it's temperature of the air. As the temperature of the air in the bore increases from ambient temperature to closer to the temperature of our breath, the air column becomes much less dense and the vibrations move more quickly though it.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-13 02:40
Riddle me this:
How do you cost justify charging comparably for two clarinets: one made out of more expensive and becoming scarcer grenadilla, and the other (the Greenline), quite literally from the grenadilla scrap shavings from making the first, that along with epoxy, makes the second?
Those scraps, no joke, I heard were used to keep the building's furnaces going for Buffet prior to the Greenline introduction.
Ok. Compared to the conventional line, there's the payback for the R&D (research and development) involved in making the Greenline product, and perhaps the cost of heating fuel alternatives. But the Greenline product has been out some time now and has probably seen most of its R&D cost paid back.
I don't mean to imply less work goes into making a Greenline instrument on par with Buffet's commitment to craftsmanship. I mean to imply that from a cost accounting standpoint, using the scrap to make instruments is bound to be more lucrative (yes, more work is involved too than merely putting them "over the fire") than using those scraps to run the building's heat. And that in reclaiming this wood, it is bound to bring down the overall cost of bringing either line of clarinets to market, relative to only having a grenadilla model.
Can anyone offer rationale for this pricing other than the rising cost of Grenadilla, or the rising costs of paying legacy costs to retired Buffet employees?
The question is not (entirely at least) cynically rhetorical. Maybe there are significant costs in making a Greenline instrument over a pure grenadilla one for Buffet that offset the cheaper cost of materials for the Greenline, GIVEN commitment to already buying the Grenadilla for the conventional product line.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-13 03:54
As we have discussed before, the real cost of constructing a fine instrument is the amount of work (and the time required for that work) that goes into making it play well. If someone actually wanted a PVC clarinet that played like a Buffet R13 you could probably do it and it'd probably cost about $3,500 when all the work was finished on the bore and tone holes to make it play properly.
A Stradivarius is NOT expensive because it's made out of an old piece of wood. It's expensive because it was made by Stradivarius.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-13 05:57
One factor in Greenline material is that it is harder and Buffet wears out their tooling faster.
Also, much of the cost in clarinet manufacturing is in the keywork and all the "touch labor" that goes with it ... the material is a factor, but I am sure the pulverized Blackwood used in the Greenline material comes from the same source as the solid wood clarinets ... it's selected and aged just the same, it's just that the waste material is used, instead of thrown away or burned in a furnace. Not using the waste material would mean only solid wood instruments would be available, and would increase their price due to the supply of quality wood in chunks big enough to make into instruments.
And they have to MAKE the Greenline material ... solid wood it just in its natural state, although it takes some fussing over. All things considered, it's really a wonder that Greenline is not more expensive than solid wood.
If they bit the bullet and went cold turkey to a totally secret synthetic non-obtainium, the shock would harm sales ... or kill them. Eventually, you may only be able to purchase Greenline instruments on a regular basis ... and/or the solid wood prices might get crazy.
So, Buffet is not charging too much for Greenline, IMHO.
I'd still like to see Buffet offer a selection of hardwoods. Or, even better, and a real cost saver, Ebonite (hard rubber).
I wonder if you can make Greenline material out of Cocobolo?
Tom
Post Edited (2015-04-13 06:33)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-13 07:06
Sigh.
I'm afraid a point is missed here. I'm not complaining about what Buffet's cost (a very legitimate story for another post).
I'm comparing the cost of two Buffet product lines that both involve comparable construction costs. One's made of grenadilla, and the other of glue.
That's not meant as disparaging, but more along the way that a cost accountant sees it. The grenadilla leftover's of the first is used to make the second. To the second one's costs, materials is, barring glue, a freebie. Stated another way, if all Buffet did was make Greenlines, gone would be much of the concern about buying high enough quality grenadilla billets that are long enough without defect to make an upper or lower joint out of. I can't help believe that this savings would more then justify the costs of making the Greenline material and wearing down tooling machines faster.
With not much exaggeration they could take most of the tree and stick it in the machine my arborist visits with on the back of his truck, that converts limbs into tree shavings that take up less room as they're spit into the back of his truck. It might not even need be a grenadilla tree, saving not only on organic material cost, but on wear and tear of the shredding equipment against this high density wood.
If I was comparing a Buffet to an ebay plastic clarinet costing $70, your points about labor costs would be well taken.
Tom: you are correct that ebonite is a great material to make a clarinet out of.
Here's the Wizard behind the curtain and ultimate paradox: Grenadilla was original chosen for manufacturing cost savings, then touted as the stuff great clarinets were made of thereafter to justify price, then, as good grenadilla supplies dwindle, it turns out you can chop it up and it and glue it, or make clarinets with other materials, as the quality of its sound was never the primary reason it was used in the first place.
Oh--and if most of the price was in the craftsmanship, I'm really having a hard time believing that the differential in cost between the R13 and higher priced models down the conventional non-Greenline product line is justified in workmanship. This is not to say that the higher end instruments don't have more features and workmanship, just that they are not cost justified.
Your paying for the presumption that the better wood used in these models is worth it. Which in the Prestige is the same quality wood as the golden era R13s. And in the Greenlines, I suspect the same Greenline material throughout the product line.
Buffet makes great instruments, but you're not paying for wood or craftsmanship so much as their retired employee's pensions. I'm not passing editorial on it being okay for retired seniors to go hungry. I'm just telling you were the money goes.
Post Edited (2015-04-13 07:29)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2015-04-13 07:40
Actually, as anyone who taken Econ 101 knows, cost of manufacturing only sets a minimum profitable selling price. The actual selling price eventually settles to the old "supply and demand" curve. Buffet clearly believes that some players will pay a little more for the premise that Greenlines won't crack and that they stand
up well to weather, etc. Time will tell whether they are right and they will adjust the selling price accordingly. The idea that "if it costs less to make, then they should sell it for less" doesn't hold up well in the marketplace. Life ( and marketing strategies ) may not always seem fair. And Buffet certainly does not mimic Walmart's rigid cost-driven pricing policies in any way, shape or form. You pays your money and makes your choice.
Jerry
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-13 07:59
I don't think you can grind up green trees for the Greenline composite ... as I stated, I'll bet it's the same stuff used in their solid wood models.
I am still wondering if the shortage exists in other suitable hardwoods. I'll bet an Festival in Rosewood would turn heads ... and spike sales.
Well, I think the fit and finish should be a bit better on the prestige Buffets versus the standard stuff ... it's my understanding that the most experienced craftsmen construct the prestige series ... and the wood might be a better grade, tighter grain. Therefore higher prices ... and you get that little sticker, too.
But, if the most experienced (and higher paid) craftsmen are used for Buffet's elite models, why don't we don't see prestige models in Greenline? You'd think ...
Maybe premium Greenline, from the heartwood.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-04-13 08:01)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-13 13:56
Buffet originally said that ays they grind up the shavings from drilling out the bore of wood clarinets and bind them together for the Greenline material. Their advertising touted the number of mpingo trees saved as well as the supposed benefits of having grenadilla dust embonded in glue, which, somehow, gives the "grenadilla sound."
However, Buffet's history timeline http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/saga/our-history says that the Greenline material consists of "reconstituted ebony from Mozambique that keep 100% of the acoustic properties and provide incontestable reliability and longevity for the instruments," so who knows.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-13 14:49
Not the cost of the wood.
Buffet has a clarinet that they don't put any effort to make, it's called the B12. And if you think you can get the same results out of a B12, by all means don't buy an R13.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: cearnsh
Date: 2015-04-13 15:20
Returning briefly to the original question, the change in pitch as in instrument warms up is due to the change in temperature of the air column. The speed of sound is higher in warm air.
There is a dimensional change in the body of the instrument as it warms up, as anyone who has attempted to play a well regulated plastic bass clarinet in cold weather may have discovered - the long key rods can bind until the body has warmed up and expanded slightly. However, this dimensional change is at most a fraction of a millimetre and is really not significant with regard to the pitch. In addition, expansion of the diameter of the bore as it warms will raise the pitch, not lower it, acting in the opposite sense to the tiny change in length. (Hence the trick of lowering the pitch of a high-pitch instrument by putting a string down the bore)
Chris
Chris
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-04-13 17:28
Ditto on the reason for rising pitch with warm up ... the longitudinal expansion of the instrument actually slightly decreases the pitch, but the bore expansion actually increases the pitch ... but it's mostly about sound propagation with increasing temperature ...
I heard of the approach with hanging a "waxed string" down the bore to lower pitch ... maybe Keith Steins book.
And ditto on the B12 ... many folks think they make better table legs ...
I want to keep the "wood option" open for myself and future generations ... although Ebonite works quite well ... I hope when our grandchildren are showing their grandchildren their clarinet, they don't have to evoke disbelief when they say: "you know kids, a hundred years ago, they actually made these out of wood!"
Tom
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2015-04-13 21:18
Re: pitch vs. temperature- Chris (above ) has it exactly right. I once had to publicly embarrass a band director (who was an excellent clarinetist) for perpetuating the myth about "warmer temperature equals longer tube causing lower tuning". He was greatly amazed when the large number of engineers and scientists in this particular band finally let him know that he was incorrect. Some myths die hard, it would seem......
Jerry
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