 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brian P. Butler
Date: 2015-04-01 07:09
Hi everyone!
I'm preparing for a contractor audition on the 18th of April. I'm a doubler by trade, but have chosen to take this audition on clarinet, my primary instrument. One of the excerpts requested is from Daphnis et Chloe, Suite II, by Ravel. For those that aren't familiar, you should listen to this piece because, in my opinion, it's beautiful! The technical requirements of the excerpt require the player to play 12 32nd notes - 1 beat's worth - at quarter note(QN) = 50-52. The pattern requires a great deal of technical agility and metronomic accuracy.
I have never considered myself to be a very agile player. I have been working this excerpt for about a week, and can consistently play it at QN = 40. Past that, it becomes a hot mess. Does anyone have any pointers of exercises to increase agility, specifically on this excerpt, but also in general? Thanks in advance.
~Brian
Butler Musical Services
Performance. Education. Dedication.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-01 13:29
Your not going to like the answer.
The answer is that it is too late for your upcoming audition, BUT as far as your career goes you will see this excerpt on pretty much every orchestral audition you take, so you'll be ready in six months and for the rest of your life.
You need to drill technical passages S-L-O-W-L-Y (perfect practice makes perfect) at around 60= the sixteenth note. Chances are that even though you get "close" to tempo before you "lose it," your rhythm more likely than not gets wonky well before that. When I first approached this excerpt many years ago I had a drummer who overheard me say my the rhythm was off around the the sixth and seventh notes of one of the written groups. I didn't know what the hell he meant for years.....don't be like me.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2015-04-01 16:11
Also keep in mind that the sextuplets are 2+2+2, not 3+3 (although I played it once for a conductor who insisted on the 3+3 pattern - very uncomfortable).
Another thing to remember is the dynamic, which is piano. Too often you hear candidates playing this like a Weber concerto.
Unfortunately I have to agree with the previous poster - this is an excerpt that takes months to learn correctly, and only if your technique is already highly refined.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-04-01 16:29
To work out a difficult passage, you absolutely *must* start dead slow and with a metronome. For an unfamiliar pattern, such as the D&C noodling, you may have to set the metronome to 60 and play one note per beat. Keep setting the speed *slower* until you can play the exercise without difficulty. Then move the speed up one notch at a time.
After you get slightly familiar with the passage, you will find that you can jump up to a higher speed. THIS IS A TRAP. You must build up gradually, through each intermediate speed. Otherwise you're just faking it. There is always an intermediate speed (say, sixteenths at 96) where you start to stumble because some changes from note to note are easy and some are hard. Unless you work your way through this point, your technique will always be uneven and unreliable at faster speeds.
EVENING OUT THE CHANGES
Sometimes moving from one note to the next involves just one finger (say, low C to low D), and sometimes it involves many fingers in contrary motion (as in going over the break). The more complex movements tend to take more time, and it's also hard to keep them as clean as the easy ones.
Therefore, you need to single out the hard finger movements and clean them up. You do *not* achieve this by just running through a passage over and over. The following method isolates each interval and lets you work on it individually.
Beginning *very* slowly, play the passage in pairs of quadruple-dotted 16ths and 128ths, repeating each quick change until you have it clean and snappy. At the beginning, play just the first note; stop and take a small breath; then "snap" from the second to the third notes as quickly as possible, repeating until it is clean; stop and take a small breath; then "snap" from the 4th to the 5th note, and so on. Then leave out the breaths and work up gradually to close to performance tempo. Notice that you are working on the transition between notes 2 and 3, then 4 and 5 and so on.
Then, begin again with a 128th followed by a quadruple-dotted 16th. This isolates the transitions you skipped, between notes 1 and 2, 3 and 4, and so on.
Work up both versions slurred and tongued.
When you finish, you will have isolated and cleaned up the transition between each note and the next. Then, go back to straight 16ths, which will be almost magically smooth.
I've used this method for over 50 years, and it never fails.
Ken Shaw
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Author: PaulIsaac
Date: 2015-04-01 16:42
Paul Aviles wrote:I had a drummer who overheard me say my the rhythm was off around the the sixth and seventh notes of one of the written
groups. I didn't know what the hell he meant for years.....don't be like me.
>
Paul, would you kindly elaborate on this? Specifically, do you have any suggestions on a proven way to "don't be like me" please?
I really enjoy and respect your posts on this forum and would be very grateful if you were to provide more detailed information as I am currently having general rhythmic difficulty with some lightning-fast passages.
Thank you.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-04-01 18:11
If you can find a really good orchestral clarinetist who has performed the piece, you would probably find it worthwhile to take a lesson on it. There are some tricks and "false" fingerings that can help out some.
Alternatively, or in addition, you might also find it worthwhile (if you haven't already done so) to get a copy of Peter Hadcock's "The Working Clarinetist." Gary Van Cott lists it as available and can probably get it to you in a couple of days. His service is outstanding. Hadcock devotes about 10 pages to Daphnis. He probably covers most of the other excerpts on your list as well.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-04-01 21:54
Another "trick" I heard from a Russian colleague is to play the whole 2nd Suite on Bb transposing down a half step. I tried it briefly only to find that some of the chords got easier while some others got harder. I went back to my friend complaining rather steadfastly about this and he said one of the most profound things I've ever heard with regard to pedagogue, "then don't do it!" I guess if it works for you, thank Yuri the clarinet player.
As for the SLOW practice I differ from Ken quite strikingly. I say that the SLOW drill goes on and on (it is NEVER too late to practice a passage SLOWLY). And then at given points you can jump up to higher speeds to "check on learning" but to LEARN the part, you must constantly drill S-L-O-W-L-Y. To clarify my story, it took me years to learn what other fine players must have known early on in their studies about how to practice technical passages. There is NO short cut (as Julian Bliss emphasizes in a video you can find on YOUTUBE). The results will come weeks, months and even years down the road but you can feel a difference in just a month if you stick with it.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-01 22:29
All the above advice is excellent, practicing VERY slowly, take some lessons, and very gradually work up to speed. Having spent many years as an orchestra contractor for national shows and Broadway shows I am surprised that you have to take an audition. Every contractor I knew went by the reputation of a musician from other musicians they respected. There were no auditions, and when people offered to audition for me I simply told them it was a demeaning process and did not mean much. Good musicians like to play with good musicians, and if 2 or 3 really great musicians recommend someone you can bet they know how to play and play well with others.
I also have to question why you want to take the audition on clarinet. Is that your strongest instrument? The Milwaukee symphony has auditions for subs, but you are required to play sax, flute, and clarinet, but the kicker is they actually hire based on recommendations for sax sections so only a fool takes the audition which is usually nobody. I have done many tours and never auditioned for anyone. In the free lance world the musicians who are worth hiring would never bother to consent to an audition and a contractor is lucky to get them. You might want to get to know the people who are actually getting hired for shows. Their recommendation can carry a lot of weight. Take some lessons from them.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2015-04-02 00:08
Well, I'll go against the grain here and advocate that practicing fast music fast has its upside.
A well argued case is here:
http://youtu.be/f9X4h-cY1uw
I think if you are in a time crunch you'll get results quicker.
I've had some success with this approach, although I should clearly state that I am no expert clarinet player.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2015-04-02 00:08)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-02 04:29
“I say that the SLOW drill goes on and on (it is NEVER too late to practice a passage SLOWLY). And then at given points you can jump up to higher speeds to "check on learning" but to LEARN the part, you must constantly drill S-L-O-W-L-Y.”
Paul: we’ve been down this road before, several times in fact. You preach the “always take things slow doctrine,” and people like me, and Ken [Shaw], and Karl [Krelove], and otherwise better known and better players/board contributors than me chime in with objection, or at least differing opinions.
Invariably thereafter, you modify your position. I could dig up examples if you like, but better, I will ask you to rethink this position going forward.
First, call it semantics, but when we are not performing for others, and sometimes even when we are, we are “drilling,” or practicing if you will for the purposes of getting better. You can’t by definition constantly drill slowly AND jump up to higher speeds anymore than you should, even if you could.
I want to assume the Julian Bliss video you refer to is this.
https://youtu.be/zUVNYVKA0z4?t=2m8s
I call it the Bliss “there are no shortcuts” video.
If so, it is my belief you take Bliss’ statements about practicing slow out of context, and lose the essence of what Bliss is really trying to say. Bliss is talking about practicing slow because he knows that so many players take passages faster than the can accurately play them, and in so doing, if I may paraphrase Karl, are just reinforcing mistake making, which is more than a waste of time, it’s downright counterproductive.
Rather, the true essence of Bliss’ message, I think, lies at around 2:08, where my link is positioned. At this point he talks about taking things slowly, not for slowness’ sake, but rather, to go no faster (i.e. if necessary slow) than a player can repeatedly play a piece flawlessly. Slowness refers to the method with which the metronome is increased in speed, not that it’s never increased in speed. One does not just jump up to higher speeds as you mention because one is already (or should be) playing as fast as they accurately can, meaning that immediate tempo increases are synonymous with near guaranteed errors in play (a bad thing as it reinforces errors.) And if you can take some phrase, passage or piece at 60 bpm, (and that’s below performance tempo) you don’t waste time (a clarinetist’s most precious asset) at 40 bpm. Instead, you strive, no quicker than you can, for 61 bpm, etc.
There are times you may want to briefly slow the heck out of something sometimes to reinforce confidence, or muscle memory, or during a bad practice session, but as the exception, not the rule.
Sure, we may start our warmup of it at 50 bpm, but as long as were playing it slower than performance speed, we are striving for faster speed, never compromising accuracy, and even if such performance improvements are themselves slow.
For the record, I am all for playing slowly when it is indicated, either by composer or clarinetist's proficiency. I’m not anti slow, I’m anti wasting time.
And as an auditionee, I'd much rather hear it accurate a couple of clicks slower.
Post Edited (2015-04-02 04:34)
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-02 06:14
Brian,
I just checked out your homepage...very nice. Being a doubler and playing 3 instruments is an art in itself. Trying to put myself in your place, I would break it down into 4 note segments, work on each one and the transition between the last note of one and the first note of the next four. Then put it all together. If I were the person listening to you audition I would want to hear the music happen, and have it sound effortless. If that means playing it slightly slower so be it. That is better than playing up to tempo and crashing. Eventually you will be able to master it. I am sure you know who Phil Woods is. When Phil auditioned at Julliard they did not accept saxophone, so he auditioned on clarinet. All of the judges thought he was the worst clarinet player they heard that day, but one wise judge voted to let Phil in because he said he had the most talent. Phil got in. He did not stay long because fame and fortune awaited, but that one judge heard his talent and convinced the others to let him in. Sleep on that.
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Author: Brian P. Butler
Date: 2015-04-02 07:33
Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom and advice. I will check out the Youtube videos provided as additional resources. I'd like to answer a few points that various people have made throughout this discussion. Please know that my tone is not meant to be harsh; I posted this query to have exactly the dialogue that we are having:
1) I am not looking for a quick fix, but rather additional methods of practicing what I believe to be true: you must practice technical passages slowly in order to learn them. My tried and true method begins with slowing the passage down in order to control the notes (finger position, alt. fingerings, etc). I then "rhythm bust" the passage. (My name for a method most of you have probably used in one form or another) Playing each rhythm 5-10x correctly, I play a dotted 8th/16th rhythm, a 16th/dotted 8th rhythm, tripulets (if not all ready the rhythm), and quarter notes in retrograde.
My issue is that I feel as though I have "hit the wall" in regards to playing faster. Your comments, however, have shown me that this is not true. I merely need to push past the frustration/pressure of preparing for this audition.
2) Wisco99 - Thank you for checking out my homepage! I'm taking the audition on clarinet due, in part, due to the structure of the DC AFM, if not all Union locals. The showcase is for classical instruments, with a maximum of 2 instruments per participant. Although I have play clarinet ans saxophone for more than 20 years, the clarinet was my first instrument, and the one that I've had the most classical training on.
3) Lessons are a great and valuable resource; one that I take advantage of whenever possible. Most recently I studied for one semester of graduate school with Garrick Zoeter (Antares Quartet, New Orchestra of Washington, Shenandoah University) and have had occasional lessons with David Jones (Kennedy Center Opera House Orchestra).
4) Word of mouth is great, if people know you exist. I am attempting to transition from non-Union to Union circles; the people who I've played with have not been members of the Union. Although I have spent years cultivating a reputation in the community theater level of show work, I need to create crossover by auditioning for a room full of contractors on a more professional level. It is possible, but not likely, that work will come directly from this endeavor. However, getting my resume, face, and sound - if only on one instrument - in the hands of people who can hire or make suggestions to those who do is a step toward no longer being anonymous.
Thanks again. I look forward to continuing the dialogue on this, and other, topics.
Butler Musical Services
Performance. Education. Dedication.
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Author: Wisco99
Date: 2015-04-02 08:32
In the words of the great flutist and teacher Marcel Moyse: “It is a question of time, patience, and intelligent work.”
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-02 18:16
Sylvain:
I have carefully watched the video you attached to your thread. Although I don't agree with it, and will explain why below, I think its author Jason Sulliman is well intentioned.
In short, Mr. Sulliman advocates, rather (or at least more) than slowing down a metronome to accomodate a difficult phrase, taking, one note at a time, only small pieces of a difficult phrase, at tempo, only incorporating additional notes when the prior subset of notes is perfected. He demonstrates 3 ways to do this, 1) forwards, 2) backwards, 3) and "middle working out" through a phrase.
Mr. Sulliman's rationale is based on this being a better approach than the classical one of taking music at a pace it can be handled at, and slowly speeding up, because not only is less change required to neural pathways using his method, but because the neural changes are smaller than when the player moves from the conscience thought of individually played slow notes, to the subconscience ones of playing a series of notes fast.
Even assuming Mr. Sulliman is correct as it regards how most players learn quickest, I'm not sure its the [quickest] way to learn "best." Maybe it has applicability to learning fastest how to play a fast technical passage correctly, but I have my doubts.
To my mind, Mr. Sulliman's method is not dissimilar from the way a Parrot mimics human speech. The parrot has no concept of the individual words it speaks, simply memorizing a series of sound patterns at one tempo.
The "fly in the oitment" here, I think, is that should the player be faced with playing at even a slightly slower or faster tempo by say a conductor, Mr. Sulliman's approach may be more likely to cause the player to stumble. Worse, the player isn't playing music so much as "a series of notes married to a specific speed."
I'm not beyond the pragmatic need for players to come up to speed (no pun intended) on things quickly to make a living as performers. I just feel that at least as it regards clarinet, not Mr. Sulliman's trombone, we need to slow things down do expose where in a phrase of music lies our points of most likely failure and why. Is our tongue out of line with our fingers? If so, which of the two is more culpable and how do we get them in line. Mr. Sulliman might have a point in phrases where all notes are equally difficult to make, but I believe this to rarely be the case. Slow play first allows the performer to not just be a technician, but a musician too.
Few if any player's brains work fast enough, I think, to reveal this data when trying to learn at concert speed.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2015-04-02 19:47
I don't want to hijack Brian's thread, but if you search the board you'll find some interesting conversations about fast vs slow practice as well as other learning techniques, including comments from established pros.
I am always skeptical of dogmatic teaching practices, successful teachers and learners know how to adapt and optimize practice techniques for maximal gain.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-04-02 20:35
I too am fine with working outside the convention box of pedagogy when its theoretical constructs have little pragmatic foundation in getting that musician to "learn the lick in time to get the job."
What I seek is objective science that shows such techniques to work better on the whole, or at least no worse, in clarinet advancement, than the status quo.
Altenatives to metronomic repetition and slow tempo advancement have been around since the metronome itself, and yet none seems to have unseated conventional wisdom, even if we've lacked understanding of the mind's approach to play until recently.
In the daydream that is my teaching of students who have more ability than determination, a non-serious part of me would love to try negative reinforcement electroshock therapy for play errors resulting from inadequate practice!
Of course, in reality I'll still stick with conventional teaching methods and positive reinforcement only.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2015-04-03 01:04
Notice though that Brian adopted the "start slow and gradually increase speed" approach coupled with the "variation of rhythmic pattern" approach that many have recommend in the past but, even using both approaches patiently, he has reached an impasse -- an upper bound on the speed he can achieve with accuracy. Using the same approaches, I've experienced the same kind of limit (usually, Jettel is involved and the threshold is about 10% short of his metronome marking ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif) .) I suspect that most clarinetists experience this problem to some degree. (Stockhausen, Henze, Donatoni, anyone?) At that point, it seems to me, continuing to try slow practice, patiently increasing speed gradually, even one metronome marking at a time, is like banging one's head against a wall -- the only benefit is that it feels good when one stops. IMO, what is called for in this case is a change which may be as simple as finding an alternate fingering for a note in the pattern or not venting an altissimo note in a fast run or may be as drastic as "prop[ping] down the Db/Gb key with the thick end of an old reed" as Hadcock suggests for the section between rehearsal numbers 155 and 156 in Daphnis. Sometimes knowing how and when to cheat is just as important as knowing how and how much to practice.
And, by the way, it's better to find the cheats before starting to work on the piece than after because changing a fingering or two midstream can be as difficult as correcting an error after one has practiced the original fingering at slow tempo a few hundred times. That's a reason why a lesson with an experienced player early on and books like Hadcock's are so valuable.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2015-04-03 01:06)
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2015-04-03 02:38
Sometimes with a technical passage that is a bit longer I use what I call "slingshot" practice because it feels like pulling a slingshot back just a little farther every time. I start with a few notes or a couple of beats at the end of the passage, then each time I get comfortable with that much I back up just a little bit and practice to the end again. By the time I get back to the beginning of the passage I am really rolling by the end.
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