 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2015-02-17 16:04
So I brought home a new set of R13s from Mike Hammer's shop.(silver plated keys) that I'm going to try for a few days. Any input on what people are finding with the latest R13s out there and or the difference between the silver plated key version and the nickel plated key version? I played several versions of each at the shop and was drawn to the silver plated models.
Snow day today, I get to fool with the new instruments!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-17 16:24
Do Buffet still offer nickel plated keywork?
To my knowledge they haven't offered nickel plated R13s in the UK or mainland Europe for quite some time now.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2015-02-17 17:24
I expect that among all of the details that make one clarinet play different than another, the key plating isn't very high on the list
Steve Ocone
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-02-17 18:05
The idea that key plating affects tone is an Urban Myth. Ordinary sample-to-sample variation accounts for everything.
That said, I find nickel too slippery, and I'm slightly allergic to it. I prefer unplated German silver.
Also, the amount of silver used in plating a clarinet's key costs Buffet maybe a dollar. Charging hundreds of dollars extra for silver is obscene.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-17 18:46
The amount of silver on each key may indeed cost around a dollar, but you have to add the time and effort gone into plating them, then fitting them once they've been plated. The amount of silver applied to each key on a Prestige model is a minimum of 25 microns which means it can be up to 40 microns in places,
You can easily break a clarinet down and work out the cost for each individual component, but that doesn't factor in the time and labour costs to turn it into a fully finished instrument, so do try to put things into perspective.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-02-17 19:00
The new R13s I've been seeing the last few weeks have had a adjusting screw added to the left hand f/c key.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-17 21:20
My son has r13 nickel plated (which of course is getting replated in to silver, consider your self lucky you chose silver instead of nickel from beginning).
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Author: vin
Date: 2015-02-17 21:51
There isn't a better/worse aspect to silver/nickel - many excellent pro players prefer nickel (and many others prefer silver).
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-02-17 22:29
I read somewhere that the trees that Buffet contracts to use in their grenadilla clarinets is being grown very quickly (because they've become scarce) and is resulting in a lot more cracking of their instruments than there used to be. Has anybody found that to be true?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-17 22:38
Grenadilla is sourced from only a few places to supply all woodwind instrument makers, so it's going to be hugely variable in age, quality and density.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2015-02-17 22:44
It's more that the trees are being harvested very quickly and don't attain a sufficient size to avoid radial stress as the wood seasons.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2015-02-17 22:57
Remember - In the 50's, 60's and early 70's when the R13 was the only top model Buffet clarinet, ALL the best aged grenadilla wood was used in their construction, including cuts from the more dense heartwood and the lesser dense wood near the surface. Thus the variation of some 'Golden Age' R13's that resulted in some having a distinct highly desirable ringing sound and others that were fine but more subdued.
As clarinet demand increased into the 80's, 90's and beyond, Buffet introduced higher priced models and used the more desirable heartwood for their construction. The standard R13 was then given the lesser "B" stock wood (an actual admission from a Buffet rep). Also, the aging and drying time of all the grenadilla billets was lessened by quicker kiln drying, making the wood a bit more unstable.
Of course today it is still possible to find a lovely ringing standard R13, but the odds are much less than generations ago.
... GBK (who only has R13's from the '60's, 70's and 80's)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-17 23:22
Roxann wrote:
> I read somewhere that the trees that Buffet contracts to use in
> their grenadilla clarinets is being grown very quickly (because
> they've become scarce) and is resulting in a lot more cracking
> of their instruments than there used to be. Has anybody found
> that to be true?
Can you hurry (force) a tree that's as naturally slow-growing as mpingo?
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-17 23:54
People, people! It's not the plating of the keys, it's the accoustics they create when coupled with the ligature! (not) ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
(That's not a dig on either plating or ligatures, just urban myth.)
Joking aside, and speaking of wood, I must hand to Buffet the marketing, of not morality award of the decade.
Faced with the problem, "how do we address the dwindling supply of quality granadilla, all while its prices rise," Buffet faced quite the conundrum. To start introducing, say, hard rubber clarinets as an alternate to their wood ones (IMHO, currently one of the ideal materials to make a clarinet out of, even forgetting the exploitation of Grenadilla Trees) at comparable prices no less to their grenadilla offerings, risked "The Emperor's New Clothes" realization by the masses that maybe, just maybe, people had put too much emphasize on the wood being the source of beautiful sound, as compared to craftsmanship, resulting in the disenfranchisement with Buffet such realizations might have caused consumers to feel.
So..and I must admit this was marketing brilliance--no sarcasm intended--they took (some of/all?) the left over shavings from grenadilla clarinet production, prior to this, destined, quite literally, for the furnance(s) that heated the building, mixed it with epoxy, and made a beautiful (Greenline) clarinet--in so doing, not technically abandoning the grenadilla paradigm in its entirety.
I don't mean to minimize this feat. I'm sure it took a lot of work to get it to Buffet's standards. I'm just saying that maybe it wasn't the "grenadilla pixie dust" that accomplished this feat.
Who thinks Grenadilla is such a magical wood that it retains identical accoustical and structural properties when either whole, or ground up?
By the way, this in no way implies that Buffet doesn't make great clarinets (disclaimer, I own Buffet and am financially unaffilitated with music.) It just questions the degree to which the grenadilla deserves credit for that.
I'm curious, as I address this to those with opposite viewpoints....Buffet lovers, Ridenour (hard rubber for example) haters, who do you think makes a more consistent clarinet? And could that be because Tom's using more dimentionally stable materials?
Second question...truly unknown answer: Are Greenlines, independent of the cracking I've heard of, more consistent than pure Buffet Grenadilla clarinets?
Third question? Why do you think Buffets have a reputation for inconsistency, if not for the wood they're made of?
These questions are not rhetorical. I'd truly like to know what you think.
====
I feel sorry for those who differ from me--not because I think I can't be wrong: certainly I'm fallable. But rather because I predict (wait, forget me, the EXPERTS near unanimously think) that the next generation of players might not be able to afford grenadilla instruments, all while other materials are introduced, who accoustics shows sound equal or superior to grendilla, using stronger, lighter weight, and/or more dimentionally stable materials.
Once upon a time, the idea that baseball bats could be made out of anything but wood was deemed preposterous too.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 00:08
whiteplainsdave: "Once upon a time, the idea that baseball bats could be made out of anything but wood was deemed preposterous too."
I can see your kids/grand kids playing little league baseball with a hard rubber bat !!! <sorry, i meant aluminum>
I'll be convinced of hard rubber once it is played regularly at a big5, or takes center stage regularly at one of the big5 orchestra outfit by some big shot soloist. Until then, I am with grenadilla or cocobolo.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 01:03)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 01:00
I respect your opinion yaseungkim.
But I would also ask you to, say every say 6 months or so, take a step back and contemplate the degree to which such herd mentality makes sense in the clarinet industry. It might, it might not.
This is not meant as insult. I try to do it myself; I recommend others do so as well.
There is something to be said postively of herd mentality. When a lot of smart people stand up and say, for example, "we have a global warming problem," I think it deserves our attention.
But the music gear purchasing decision making heuristic, particularly for clarinets, is fraught with factors that can be irrelevant, urban myth, pure herd mentality void of reason, and stubborness in decision maker's (and their leagacy teacher's) refusing to accept change.
When prices of grenadilla rise enough (and they are and will) that the big 4 makers, who endorse players, come out with professional clarinets made in non wood or wood derivative alternatives (e.g. Greenline,) as they already have, that they can demonstrate (and pros concur) are equal or superior to purely wood horns, I believe your benchmark, for all we can cogently debate its merits or limitations, will become reality. Top pros already, for example, play Greenline instruments.
Understand that your benchmark is sound in that no top pro would play junk, but also compromised in that these same pros can, and sometime are swayed by the all mighty dollar.
(Oldies like me: didn't Drucker endorse LeBlanc for a while there?)
=======
Inferior grendilla is costing more in real dollars than superior wood from the 1950's and 1960's, and strong cases are being made that there isn't as much magic in the wood as thought.
Despite this, the real cost of clarinets has gone up enormously over the last 40 years due to this shortage (as well as, in fairness, the cost of retired employee's benefits.)
I have repair tech friends who make a business out of buying old R13's at places like estate sales, reconditioning them, and selling them at handsome profit, based on the golden era idea, true or not, of Post WW II Buffets like the R13 being best.
Wood derivative and wood alternative materials will be necessary. And even if top pros continue with grenadilla clarinets, like with some other instruments (e.g. Basoons, Flutes, violins), it's questionable whether we mere mortals will be able to afford the same make and model they play. It use to be we Buffet players use to all play R13s. Now, Toscas seem to be the tool of the financially and/or musically blessed only.
I would hate the clarinet world to become (and I don't think it will,) at least in terms of top of the line instruments, similar to the violin, viola and cello world where top players are often given lifetime rights to play a "Strad" they neither own nor could afford, otherwise given to them by an extremely well endowed trust.
Amidst all the frustrations of the instrument, one thing I always enjoyed growing up is that I could afford the same instrument Stanley Drucker plays on: not something that can be said with a lot of other instruments.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 01:02)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 01:15
WhitePlainsDave, I liked your analogy to baseball bats, seriously.
We all know that aluminum bat is more powerful and more durable than a wooden bat, as well as safer. But nobody plays aluminum bat in MLB, not because it is an inferior material to wood. You hit a home run with aluminum in MLB, nobody cares, and it won't count..
For whatever the reason (right or wrong), the Major League Clarinettists have agreed to play a wooden instrument, as in grenadilla or cocobolo, etc... not the superior product as in hard rubber for whatever the reason I don't know and cannot comprehend. If hard rubber did produce better music, no amount of money can persuade a true musician to abandon the best, IMHO.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 01:47
vin; There isn't a better/worse aspect to silver/nickel - many excellent pro players prefer nickel (and many others prefer silver).
And there are big shot clarinettists like Ricardo Morales who plays gold plated clarinet. I've heard some manufacturer of clarinet making a claim that thicker plating of silver produces better sound, although I am not convinced how this is at all possible. Since, silver or gold or nickel should not be part of music producing mechanisms... as I understand it, the "pads" and your fingers do the trick in sealing the tone holes.
So, the color of your key should only be a matter of appearance, and how your body chemistry reacts to the material used for the key, and if you cared how it reacted with your body that is.
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Author: Irwin J
Date: 2015-02-18 01:53
for what it's worth, I just received today a Buffet Greenline Festival. Price wasn't a consideration and I could have just as easily bought a Festival grenadilla. However I went for the Greenline because I perceive that it will be resistant to changes over time in intonation, as opposed to my Leblanc Opus II which is a fine instrument but needs work every so many years to keep its intonation in check.
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Author: Kenton153
Date: 2015-02-18 02:09
this was not supposed to be ANOTHER post about plating on keys................................ Why do people ignore the title of posts?? I came here wanting to read about the title of the post.. and all i got was a bunch of silver vs. nickel garbage.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 02:12
My son's old clarinet teacher was partial, and he was strongly against the greenline product, he only cared for the solid wood.
But then again, he does not play on any major orchestra, although he did say he played as a soloist with Philadelphia Orchestra, Boston Symphony, Atlanta... blah, blah which I did not care for. I think there's a guy on NY Phil that plays a greenline as a full timer, so there.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 02:16
Kenton153, didn't the original poster mention the color of keys in his original post ?
I think he said (silver plated keys).... from Mike Hammer.
Gene, the original poster wanted input on silver as oppose to nickel keys.
he wanted to talk about difference between the silver plated key version and the nickel plated key version.
I got my son's r13 from Mike Hammer in nickel keys, which I regret.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 02:19)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2015-02-18 04:31
Did Hammer "set them up" or are they fresh out the box?
Makes a difference....and it costs $, too.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-02-18 04:36
I recently spoke to a very large Buffet distributor and he told me that the Buffet R13's have a lot of problems when he receives them straight from the factory and that he has to do a lot of work on them before he can sell them to customers and then has to fight Buffet over charge backs.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 04:38)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 05:08
All things considered the Buffet R13s are still pretty much the standard horn to have these days. And as much as I may bark over pitch inconsistency, they are for the most part well made horns (also mentioned above is the greater pitch consistency with the Green Lines.........I could not agree more).
We mentioned above about the adjustment screw on the left hand pinky C/F key. This is not only great because of the adjusting capability, but it puts a teflon button at just the right spot to make the action of this key far better (and not have to be the object of the first round of modifications). Thank you Buffet. I also like the standard teflon pins on the other left hand pinky key levers......a long lasting silencer.
Now to the kvetching:
I wish Buffet would be kind enough to install something other than the cheapest standard fish-skin (I know this is just a name) pad that will crack and or wear out in a year.
Also, what gives with the squishy white material used on the crow's foot?!!? This only makes this juncture go even more quickly out of adjustment which is nebulous in the first place because the material 'gives' too much.
Come on Buffet........don't let Germany's Uebel Clarinets catch you now!
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-18 05:36
I'm not sure Mike would sell an instrument "fresh out of the box."
Karl
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-18 06:05
About wood vs. greenline, my teacher (a professional in an orchestra) plays wooden Bb and A clarinets but a greenline Eb. I am not sure if she chose the greenline instrument due to the sound or due to the fact that she may need it for outdoors pops concerts during the summer (she has backup soprano clarinets for those concerts but no backup Eb.) It's certainly a nice-sounding instrument. Maybe at my next lesson I will inquire about what she likes about the greenline Eb versus the wood Bb/A.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 06:32
Per mike hammer, he never sells you a buffet out of box. He says he always puts in $300 worth adjustments... whatever that might mean. BUT, the kid that takes lesson just before my son got his clarinet from Mike Hammer a few months ago and... one of the pads fell off during his lesson while he was playing. Go figure !!!!
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-02-18 07:16
If weight is a consideration, greenlines are heavier than grenadilla...quite a bit.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 08:28
Can't you offset the weight issue with a neck strap ?
My son's teacher always uses her neck strap whenever she plays her clarinet, whether it's her Bb or A.
My son always uses his neck strap when he plays the A, never while playing his Bb.
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2015-02-18 13:46
Yes as yaseungkim said, Mike does a partial set up. About $300 worth as he puts it. He also told me that after I finish "test driving" the set I currently have, he would do a bit more if I decide to pull the trigger and buy them. As well as provide free maintenance for small mishaps as encountered ny yaseungkim's son's friend.
So far, so good by the way. I really love the A and the Moenig barrels really help. I tried about 5 for each and took the ones I liked best home with the clarinets.
Paul Aviles, by the way, I saw some Selmer Priveleges at Mike's shop. I think I'm going to try one next week, will let you know what I think.
Post Edited (2015-02-18 13:48)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 14:40
The original versions of the Privilege (without the "Superman S" on it) is pretty amazing. The current version leaves me stumped. How and why they completely changed the acoustic of the horn beats me.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-18 17:44
Too bad we don't have the quality wood that was available 100 years ago ... if Buffet could couple 100 year old quality, well seasoned wood with the most modern precision of manufacturing (Backun style?), even with the current design, they would have a vastly better product. I like hand workmanship, but it has it's limits in precision, repeat-ability and has much higher cost.
Due to the poorer quality of wood nowadays, and the tendency to have grainy tone holes, I think leather pads should be the standard ...
I hate to see Greenline material substituted for "real" wood ... I think a secret plastic or hard rubber would be the way for Buffet to realize a hardened, more forgiving instrument.
Pursuit of my next new R13 might be a disheartening adventure. (yeah, I am a Ridenour fan, but Buffets are not without some great features ...).
I played a zillion year old Evette the other day and the wood looked wonderful and the instrument played very well, albeit clunky keys ... it was replaced by a Yamaha 650, which is a very different blow ... I might try to purchase the Evette ...
Tom
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2015-02-18 19:00
Neck straps are fine, unless you have an old, arthritic neck. Then it just transfers the pain from your old, arthritic hands to your neck. So, weight CAN be a big concern to some. Oh, to be young again!
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 19:13
Gene:
"So far, so good by the way. I really love the A and the Moenig barrels really help."
I'm interesting in hearing you describe your before and after Moenig barrel situation to me, and its specifics to your "A" clarinet.
Thanks.
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Author: Gene Chieffo
Date: 2015-02-18 19:15
Paul-
Interestingly the story Mike Hammer told me was that the older Priveleges were sweet but not flexible enough and couldn't produce enough sound. If I remember our conversation I think you found the opposite to be true. Mike says Rusinek was in on the redesign? and that NOW they are more flexible/bigger sounding etc.
Allegedly Donald Monranaro, a Buffet die-hard, said were he just starting out he would consider playing them.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-18 19:19
TomS wrote:
"I think a secret plastic or hard rubber would be the way for Buffet to realize a hardened, more forgiving instrument"
While I don't know exactly what Morrie Backun's Alpha student model is made of, let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if chemical analysis of its material yielded "content not dissimilar from plastic."
You've got to hand it to the copywrighters though:
"Made from a special synthetic material chosen for its excellent sonic capabilities and exceptional tone."
http://backunmusical.com/clarinets/student-clarinets/
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-18 19:21
Roxann wrote:
> Neck straps are fine, unless you have an old, arthritic neck.
> Then it just transfers the pain from your old, arthritic hands
> to your neck. So, weight CAN be a big concern to some. Oh, to
> be young again!
I'm there, too. And neck pain can radiate down the nerves in your arms and create even more pain.
But heavier is heavier, whether it's stressing your right thumb and wrist or your neck. Using a neck strap can relieve hand problems at the possible expense of moving the problems elsewhere even if you are young and non-arthritic.
I don't mean by this to swipe at Greenline. I think it may be a necessary reaction to a dwindling supply of intact high quality blackwood. And I don't think it needs to result in a compromised sound quality. But if instrument weight is an issue for an individual player, the heavier Greenline material may be problematic.
Karl
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-18 19:33
Geee, I can't wait 'til I'm 98 yo... I am in my mid 40's and I already have arthritic pain on my right shoulder just for sitting up. When I sit for more than 10 minutes, I get pain in my derrière. Life is to be enjoyed while young.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-18 22:11
Back to the Selmer:
Hey Gene,
That story is so amazing to me. I really do respect Rusinek. He has "that sound" and a solid approach clarinet playing style. But I have found lately (the last 10 years or so) that there are just some horns that (for lack of a better term) seem to "poop out" on me in the chalumeau below a mezzo forte. I can't determine what it is but I can list all the horns I know do this:
Leblanc Concerto (remember how I loved this horn in the 90s ?!!)
Backun clarinets
New Selmer Privilege and Bb Presence (the Presence 'A' for some reason is fine)
I can go back and forth between these and my Yamahas or Buffet R13s and always get the same effect.
My 'safe' horns are:
Buffet (pretty much any model but the R13s are still the most robust)
Yamaha (also all have backbone but I prefer the CSG sound and response)
Arthur Uebel (really new on the scene, and a very exciting contender to Buffet)
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-18 23:12
Slings or neck straps don't really do much in relieving the weight on your right arm whilst playing, nor do they do much for posture as they allow the clarinet to drop downwards, so you may as well just rest the bell on your knee instead of investing in a sling.
A much better alternative is the RDG 'BHOB' telescopic support that clips onto the thumbrest and the end rests on the chair seat to take the weight off your right arm while still allowing you to move as you're playing. It can also be rested on a small block worn on a belt so you can use it whilst standing.
It's the same basic design as the sadly discontinued Qudlibet 'FHRED' support.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 02:25
We all commit crime everyday, except to a different degree... I am sure everyone here has crossed yellow traffic light at some point in their life (punishable with $100 fine if your caught on camera), or did not come to a full stop at the stop sign (which a punishable with $175 fine here in PA), and if you don't pay the sheriff will come and knock on your door. And everyone has driven 10 miles above the speed limit if you own a car.... and you broke the law right there.
You paid for your crime with money when you got caught, if you did not get caught, you are now paying for them with your bodily pain in your old age... don't mean to sound mean but it appears to be the case for most of us, whether we realize it or not. I do have arthritis on my shoulder, confirmed with orthopedics doctor, so, don't think I am making fun of anyone in old age. Just stating my observations.
Post Edited (2015-02-19 09:23)
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Author: NB
Date: 2015-02-19 08:46
Hmm...
So if there is a state with quite relaxed regulations about driving, the people there have less health problems (except those ones caused by precisely the relaxation)?
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 09:07
Can't say... never lived in a state that didn't issue tickets. Maybe those Germans ought to be able to tell us, I hear they don't have speed limits like we do. I think the US might have more penal code than most other industrialized nations.
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