 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2014-12-26 17:51
When switching between A and Bb, do you transfer only the mouthpiece or both the mouthpiece and barrel? If only the mouthpiece, why not also the barrel?
For me the advantage of transferring both are:
1) No risk of altering the position of the reed.
2) Part of the other instrument will be warmed up, even though it's just the barrel.
I know that certain instruments (including mine) have different barrels for A and Bb, but I have never been able to detect any difference in practice between them.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-12-26 18:05
The risk in transferring both mouthpiece and barrel is putting the barrel in the correct position to be in tune. It is easy to push all the way in, but not so easy to guess exactly where it needs to be to be in tune.
AAAClarinet
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-12-26 18:20
On most instruments, the Bb and A barrels are different lengths.
I've only known one person to transfer both, but in her case, both instruments played well in tune with the same barrel.
Check your tuning carefully over a number of weeks on both instruments - if the A plays in tune with the Bb barrel, fine, otherwise, transfter the mpc only.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-12-26 18:21
This is the extension of WhitePlainsDave's question about the difference between A and a Bb barrels. In theory the bores are different sizes, probably more true with some makes than others. In theory the barrel should have a particular relationship with the entry bore of the top joint So in theory the barrels should be reamed differently.
In practice, most of us pick a barrel by ear and by feel. Sound and response always trump measurements. If you're looking for a barrel that focuses well and responds comfortably on both instruments, you can certainly find one and carry the whole barrel/mouthpiece combo from one clarinet to the other. If you have barrels that you like for each but don't like the way either plays on the "wrong" instrument, change only the mouthpiece.
I know players in each camp. It's not an issue anyone would go to war over. As Dave says, Moennig Buffet and Chadash Buffet barrels are sold as either A or Bb barrels. Other barrel makers don't differentiate A and Bb - just pick what works best.
Your Advantage #1 is probably the best argument for transferring both together. The flip side of #2 is that you lose any previous tuning you've done on either side at each mid-music change. Of course, even if you leave the barrels alone, a cold instrument may not be in tune anyway and you still have to guess. That's why so many passages are (or once were) played (transposed) on the "wrong" clarinet by experienced players - to avoid those instrument changes, especially when exposed passages come up very close to the change.
Karl
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-12-26 20:29
For many years, I played Buffets using a single barrel. I just didn't feel safe doing quick changes of the mouthpiece only. I had an external tuning ring made to put on the Bb, since Buffets generally need a 1mm longer barrel on the Bb than on the A. But then I found a barrel that I felt gave a significantly better response on the Bb - but to my annoyance it seemed to change the A's sound for the worse. So I ended up using two barrels after all, although not because Buffet wanted me to. And I still had the option of swapping both barrel and mouthpiece in a quick change if necessary, since the new Bb barrel wasn't a 66mm. But it's clearly desirable to use a single barrel all the time if you can. Some high-quality makers design things this way, and I can't see why the R13 has to have different barrels as its default.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-12-26 21:22
At least on my R13s, I've never found a barrel that works well on both my Bb and A. Kal Opperman told me that in addition to the shorter length of the A barrel, the bore was different enough that he had never been able to make a barrel that worked really well on both instruments.
Get a snug ligature and use plenty of cork grease, or put separate mouthpieces on the instruments. With Legere reeds, you can just pick up the second clarinet and blow.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-27 05:12
Back in the late 70s an early 80s in Chicago the common wisdom was to use your "A" barrel for both (R13s that is) and switch as you say, using both the barrel and mouthpiece.
I don't really see any problem with either. If you are PRACTICED and familiar with your instruments, YOU will KNOW exactly where to place your barrel on the instrument that is cold and how long you have until you need to pull out slightly.
Doesn't anyone practice anymore???????
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2014-12-27 06:27
I usually change both the barrel and the mouthpiece when I switch. The only time that I don't do this is when I'm also playing C clarinet, as I need my mouthpiece for the C too. This keeps me from needing to keep up with the barrel switch if I happen to go from A to C to B-flat!
My barrels work great on both Yamaha CSVs!
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-27 18:09
Back in my "orchestra days" I'd grab MP and barrel when swapping clarinets ... it was common practice with other section members, too. At the time, my instruments were Yamaha YCL-62/65.
,
Nowadays, with plastic reeds, you could have optimized separate setups for each clarinet and just grab the entire assembly. The only downside might be a cold barrel and MP that would normally be warm. But the question: How does having part of the instrument warm while the rest is cold, skew tuning?
I've wondered why someone doesn't make a clarinet stand/peg that blows warm, moist air through the instrument while it is resting. The rechargeable batteries to power such a device would be in the base to add stability. A light bulb as a heating element and a small fan would do the job ... a micro-switch would activate the stand while instrument is sitting on the peg. The temperature and air flow could easily be adjustable and regulated. Seems simple. Am I missing something?
In many concerts, it's been so hot on the stage, with all the lights and such ... our Principal once joked, after intermission: "Well, I guess I need to go on out there and blow some cold air through my clarinets".
Tom
Post Edited (2014-12-27 18:46)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-12-27 19:52
TomS wrote:
> The only downside might be a cold barrel and MP that would
> normally be warm. But the question: How does having part of
> the instrument warm while the rest is cold, skew tuning?
>
the bottom is flat and top is not; similar to first few min of warming up instrument. But not much and not to extend it can't be compensated for.
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Author: William
Date: 2014-12-27 22:12
My main Bb is a Leblanc Concerto. As TR designed his Bb and A clarinets to use the same barrel, I can use the Bb barrel on my R13 A without worrying about significant change in intonation or sound between the two. Therefore, I switch both mpc and barrel with ease........
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-28 17:51
No one likes my idea of a warming clarinet peg, as I posted previously?? Might help some age-old issues of trying to play a "hot lick on a cold stick" ...
Maybe it's been available ... and failed miserably as a viable product.
You don't need a fancy micro-controller and appropriate code to make this work ... old fashioned analog circuitry would suffice with just a hand full of parts ...!
Tom
Post Edited (2014-12-28 17:55)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-12-28 19:10
Tom, I guess many of us would "rather bear those ills we have,/ than fly to others that we know not of..."
How closely could you regulate the heat thrown off by a light bulb? Could a battery-powered bulb produce enough heat, or would this require wall current with extension cords strung across the stage? How would the air heated by the bulb and blown upward by the fan be "moist warm air" - where's the moisture coming from? Could the fan be quiet enough not to raise the hackles of our our stage-mates? And if if you could in some way humidify the air as it comes off the bulb, would you then risk a clarinet bore so covered in condensate that you would fill tone holes with water even more than we do with our moist breath as we blow it in while playing?
And then, when all is said and done, what might the effect of this constant, no longer intermittent, stream of warm, possibly moist air have on the wood and the pads. And if the moisture level, which probably would need to be adjusted to complement the relative humidity of the surrounding room air, is incorrect could it have long-term consequences for the wood inside the bore?
I'm not suggesting at all that these problems couldn't be solved, but only that it isn't perhaps as simple or straightforward a concept as it seems.
Karl
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-28 20:40
Mr. Shuffield:
How easy it must be for me to judge rather than invent products for the instrument myself. Your spirit for innovation is infectious and I don't mean to dampen (pun not intended) it.
But the truth is that I have tried to bring things to market, including in the music market space, so let me at least try to prevent you from "skinning your knees," given mine are already and metaphorically well calloused over from the repetitive injury that is bringing a product from my head to the market.
Karl did a great job touching upon some of the science and product side effect obstacles. So let me not rehash that, and talk about market obstacles, except to say that to create heat from electric, in addition to humidity, all from a portable self contained device, is energy intensive enough to suggest that your batteries won't merely stablize that stand, but perhaps better said, "anchor it to the ground." To keep such a device running for the length of a performance, I wonder it the car battery and inverter setup might be indicated.
That aside, nearly all outside investors you partner with, and you'll likely need them for money, will question the size of the market, and the ability to lower the cost of your product over time, accepting smaller profit in exchange for grabbing more of the marketspace.
But ironically, that investor won't talk to you until the device is not only patent pending, but, given the nature of dangers with heat, UL listed. If you fear the bill from the patent attorney please don't, as UL listing starts at about a million US--and that's if they request no changes to the product before certification.
(I know this sounds like sour grapes. I really don't mean to dampen spirits. I've had product successes too, just, like everyone else, a lot more failures.)
====
So lets suppose you've cleared those hurdles, and you're in negotiations for its production, or maybe your making it yourself. As a responsible business man you seek quotes for liability insurance, and when the underwriter hears the word "heat," they come back to you with an estimate for coverage that grabs $1.25 of expense from every $1.00 that you make.
Finally, on my hardly exhaustive list there's competiting products. People in the music products industry love to take products already in the marketplace and repurpose them for their buyers. To wit, the now discontinued Rico Reed Vault container was nothing more than a Lock & Lock Brand 1.5 cup container.
Functionally, Rico's product was excellent if not a market hit, as the underlying food container is well made and perfectly suited to humidty control. But to that point, what's to prevent the Rico's of the world from teaming with the makers of food thermal bags, Boveda Humidity Packs, and microwaveable or chemically induced (medicinal heat packs) portable heat sources and undercutting your price, should you be so lucky as to be successful enough with your product so as to spark their interest in competing with you?
Tom, I really do wish you well. I don't want to come off as seeing your ideas and intelligence as anything other than warranting my respect, and the respect of others. I do though think though, if you don't realize this already, and you probably do, that product creation is a minefield.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2014-12-28 21:26
Yep, might be better with a chemical heat pack, a wet cloth/sponge and maybe a little pc fan. Got to sell those consumables...
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-28 23:40
I'll run the numbers on power budget versus desired effectiveness ... I suspect a 8-12 ampere/hour gell cell (as found in small a small UPS power back up) would be more than adequate, and last for a day of music making.
As far as moist air ... I just threw that out there ... I don't know if you really need moist air to accomplish the task at hand. Bores already have an excess of moisture after playing for a few minutes, and dry warm air might be good. Which brings to light another advantage, in that an instrument that has has been "pre-warmed", has less tendency for water to condense in the bore. Humidity, if really needed, could be provided by a sponge and some of the air could be diverted over it by varying amounts, depending on a setting and some means to measure humidity (easy) and a simple analog servo would serve that.
I can only see needing added humidity if the MP and reed were left on the instrument.
Same goes for the heat, an incandescent automobile lamp (or some sort or heating element) would be driven with a waveform (such as a square wave) and have it's duty cycle adjusted to regulate the temperature. The temperature could be monitored by a thermistor and feedback provided to the servo circuit. Easy and no microprocessor required. You only need modest amounts of 99 degree air, so it's not like a space heater in your garage ... A last ditch "failsafe" thermal cutout would be needed if things went haywire.
I suspect that a selected small low CFM fan would be below normal audibility ... all passages that air moved through would have to be designed for low turbulence to prevent spurious sounds such as whistles, etc. The fan would have some waste heat (just like the lamp) and that would contribute warmth as well.
.
Of course, I hear you guys on the obstacles in getting a product to market. I've dealt with patent attorneys before and UL approval (if needed) is not cheap or fast. Protection from lawsuits would be important and required, of course.
Someone/something to quench your entrepreneurial enthusiasm at every turn. The obstacles to open a simple Hot Dog Stand boggles the mind!
Oh, and I don't intend on building such an invention, I think (I've been on R&D teams before and have acquired some sense and appreciation of the headaches) ... just thought someone had owned/used or heard of such a device.
I'd make one for myself, but my orchestra days are gone. I don't use a peg, but clutch my clarinet across my chest, in an effort to keep it warm during long rests and tacets.
I might run a feasibility study, just for grins.
Thanks for the feedback.
Tom
Post Edited (2014-12-28 23:44)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-01-01 23:48
Tom:
Would you believe it's been done..the warming/humidity case that is?
Mr. Blumberg posted this on another recent thread related to cases and I just remembered it.
http://www.lomaxclassic.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=74
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2015-01-06 18:41
How about a thermostatically controlled extra long warming peg? TomS has mentioned a warm air blowing peg, I was thinking more of a low wattage heating element that extended all the way up the peg. A bit like those home beer making heating belts that keep the fermentation bucket just at the right temperature. Cheers!
Post Edited (2015-01-06 18:49)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-06 19:06
The "long wire" could work ... And, I don't know if you really need a fan, even with one "point source" of heat (like a light bulb) near the bell. Enough warm air might move through convection up the bore of the clarinet.
A wire could be constructed of nickle-chromium wire or German silver as a heating element. Or, a string of common electronic resistors mounted on a long, skinny printed circuit board might be the easiest. Of course, you would have a really long, weird looking peg ... Resistors would need to be wired in parallel so that any one failure would not effect the entire circuit.
Seem simple enough ... I just need to see if this thing could be powered via reasonable size rechargeable batteries. Or, a "wall wart" might be OK ... if AC is available ... the stage crew should be able to provide this ...
Rainy day project ...
Tom
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2015-01-06 22:34
I agree TomS, a rainy day project. I've already cut the top off my fold up clarinet peg, one of those that stores in the bell. It now needs a small torch bulb inside the peg, maybe even the whole torch, obviously not an LED one! Convection will do the rest if a few vent holes are drilled low on the peg. I just needi another rainy day!
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-01-06 23:25
I do believe NZ Clarinet player Ken Wilson invented and built a "warming peg" back in the 1970s, and there was an article about it in The Clarinet. It might not have been Ken- it's many years since I went through all the old Clarinet mags... but I'm pretty sure I remember correctly. I knew Ken and spent time with him in the early 2000s, and always meant to ask him about this but never got around to it.
If you have time/access to look through the 1970s (or maybe very early 1980s?) Clarinet mags, there was an article with a photoghraph. Somewhere- I don't have the hour/s required to search for this just at the moment...
dn
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