 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-21 02:44
Saturday, the 22nd of November (from 10am- 3pm) the full line of Uebel clarinets (to include their bass clarinet) will be available to play at Madison Band Supply of Madison Alabama.
The US company representative and Uebel's clarinet maker will both be on hand to answer questions.
There Boehm models are:
o Classic
o Advantage
o Preference
o Superior
http://www.uebelusa.com/#!
They all feature silver plated keys and white leather pads fitted standard. The real differences amongst the horns are the care of workmanship and the exact specifications of the bore. I have tried the Advantage which sells for around $2300 US dollars and it compares VERY closely to the Buffet R13. Given the great results I got on the Advantage I cannot wait to try the Superior!
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-21 02:59
Not forgetting the Emperior low C bass which costs less than the Buffet Prestige, yet has the same keywork and I think is also acoustically identical.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-23 04:10
Did I see any of you in Madison today?
The place was packed and as usual with music fairs it was a bit of a challenge to do real testing but I had fun anyway.
The Superior model Uebel plays much darker than its cousin the Advantage. First let me tell you about the interesting part. If you look at the photo on the website the bell appears to have a round emblem on it. This is actually a vent hole for low "E" and low "F." I did not (unfortunately) put this to the test on a tuner because I got pulled away just at that critical moment.....shade! Overall I'd say the Superior plays and sounds more like the RC Buffet line. It is definitely a more mellow sound.
The Preference is in between the Advantage and the Superior and sounds that way too. It tunes more like the advantage and the sound is slightly more subdued......pretty much exactly a hybrid between the models above and below it.
Here is a real world advantage to these horns. The keys are plated VERY heavily. The Classic through the Advantage have silver plating at almost 10 microns in thickness. About three times what you get from EVERYBODY else. Now the top two Uebel models feature 20 microns of silver plate. No one would EVER have an issue of wearing out or acid erosion on these keys!
Also the bore is carefully aged and reamed out slowly with the natural resin still in it. This does two things. You get a bore that polishes as smooth as glass AND there is no need to even think about bore oiling for at least the first five years!!!! Compare that with "other brands" that kiln dry their wood to mass produce their instruments. In addition to that, properly aged wood won't "settle" differently from the time of manufacture to the time you try it. This equates to the tuning remaining what was heard at the factory......no odd tuning issues post manufacture.
Finally I thought the bass is a wonderful addition to the market. It is a very sturdily made horn. The keys don't seem to 'give' and probably won't go out of adjustment like some other bass clarinets. The lower octave was rock solid and the clarion was also impressive. I did need to engage the 'half hole' from the altissimo "D" which is not necessary on the other top brands but this would be a matter of getting used to a mild difference. Also the RH paddle keys were quite thin (width wise that is, making for smaller targets), but I'm sure a few hours of play would make that difference disappear as well.
A very impressive line-up from Uebel.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-23 10:34
>> I did need to engage the 'half hole' from the altissimo "D" which is not necessary on the other top brands but this would be a matter of getting used to a mild difference. <<
Maybe not necessary, but the first altissimo D responds better when using the "half" hole on both Buffet and Selmer bass clarinets. It plays ok but noticably worse without.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-23 13:33
I am a bass clarinetist out of necessity not out of choice, so some of what I do is pretty "made up." Given that, I had never been forced to play the altissimo "D" with the half hole before my much hated Yamaha bass. The Uebel also required this approach. Without it, all I got was this god awful 'yelp.'
I really should try to learn how to play bass properly some day.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-23 21:21
I'm curious about their ties with Buffet as the keywork on their Boehm system clarinets is practically identical to Buffet's keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-11-23 22:09
I've had a ton of fun playing around on the Uebels at clarinetfest!!! The bell hole (on the Superior) is a very simple solution to the infamous F/E issues! Chris, I'm about 90% sure their keywork is heavily influenced by Buffet's keywork. The bass keywork is so similar it's almost uncanny, though the Superior seems a tad different from the R13 or RC feel-wise. Buffet makes awesome keys so if you're gonna base your mechanics off one Boehm maker Buffet is the way to go.
Interesting side note on silver plating: some of the new Patricolas have in excess of 30 microns of silver plating! There is one model out there (and I, unfortunately, can't remember the maker) that boasts 40+ microns! Is it overkill? Maybe. Is it cool? Totally!
James
Owner, James' Clarinet Shop
www.jamesclarinetshop.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-23 22:34
Howarth oboes and clarinets have a minimum of 25 microns of silver on their keywork, so that can be around 40 microns or more in places.
25 microns is the usual standard on quality instruments as they want durability and longevity - 25 microns should last for 25 years.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-25 08:12
You can say 25 microns is the 'standard' but that's NOT what you get (by a long shot) with Buffet, Selmer or Yamaha (I could add a custom maker or two but they only 'cut costs' to match the competition).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-25 10:12
>> You can say 25 microns is the 'standard' but that's NOT what you get (by a long shot) with Buffet, Selmer or Yamaha <<
How do you know? Just curious.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-25 14:14
Yamaha use up to 10 microns if silver plate on their clarinets. Whenever I've used Buffet's platers they put a minimum of 25 microns of silver on as that's what I specify. Whether or not Buffet also specify that on their own instruments is another matter.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-25 14:21
I found out from Yamaha that the CSG is only 3microns at most. It is important to me because I have a highly acidic system and I eat through thin plating. In the case of the CSG I mostly wore it away.
It only took me one year to where deep crevasses through the silver plating of my 10G back in 1976. It was then I found out how thin RE-plating is, which is usually only about 3microns. The reason you DON'T want thicker RE-plating is that tolerances between posts, etc become impossible to re-adust AND the surface of the key itself can become uneven (glop more material at one point than another).
In an electronic correspondence with Gerold Angerer (of Gerold Klarinetten) I was told that his plating of 9 to 10 microns was considered quite thick by the industry standards and allows him to claim a guarantee of 10 years on the finish of his key work.
Chadash sent me a description of what he would do for gold plated key work and described 13 microns of silver topped with 4.8 microns of gold.
Any way you slice it, once you build the key work into a clarinet you cannot make any significant changes to the thickness of the plating. If it's going to have very thick plating (and I am to understand VERY thick to be in the range of 20 microns) then it must be designed and built that way from the beginning.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-25 18:20
It makes no difference to me if plating is applied very thickly as I've got the necessary tools to fit the keys once they've been replated. I have to do this on new instruments as well as replates, so it's all routine.
You can't expect freshly replated keywork to go straight onto an instrument without having reamed out the key barrels so the screws fit and countersink the ends of keys mounted on point screws as well as fraising back key barrels so keys mounted on rod screws fit between the pillars. Also having to retap all screw threads and ream out adjusting screw pips so the adjusting screws fit and turn easily enough and drilling out spring holes in pillars if they're undersize.
Makers won't design and make their keywork a sloppy fit prior to being plated as there's no guarantee the thickness of plating will take up the gaps, so keys always have to be refitted once they're plated - it's better the keys don't fit after plating than being a loose fit as they can be made to fit to the company's tolerances which is another variable between makers or dictated by the kind of material the instrument body is made from.
Due to the cost of gold, it's only applied as a top coat of around 3 microns minimum, so that may indeed end up as 4.8 microns or thereabouts.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-25 19:06
>> The reason you DON'T want thicker RE-plating is that tolerances between posts, etc become impossible to re-adust AND the surface of the key itself can become uneven <<
It is possible to adjust this.
>> Any way you slice it, once you build the key work into a clarinet you cannot make any significant changes to the thickness of the plating. If it's going to have very thick plating (and I am to understand VERY thick to be in the range of 20 microns) then it must be designed and built that way from the beginning. <<
Also incorrect.
Post Edited (2014-11-25 19:07)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-25 19:28
Well Clarnibass, I'm coming to YOU to replate my Yamaha CSGs in silver/gold to a thickness of 24microns. I'll expect it to play great!
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-25 19:36
I don't do replating, but you have your clarinet silver/gold plated then there are many repairers who could fit the keys and you should expect it to play great after.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-25 21:29
You can have 25 microns of silver and 3 microns of gold and that's your lot.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-11-25 22:00
Chris wrote:
>>>
You can't expect freshly replated keywork to go straight onto
an instrument without having reamed out the key barrels so the screws fit and countersink the ends of keys mounted on point screws as well as fraising back key barrels so keys mounted on rod screws fit between the pillars.
<<<
According to a repairer here, they fill barrels and screw holes with a wax-like substance prior to plating, making many of these steps unnecessary or at least half as arduous.
I can't comment on the accuracy of that claim, though, and would be curious if that might depend on the plating method.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-25 22:05
I was in a hurry in my last response. My experience has been to have very high end techs refuse to be involved in re-plating........those were the reasons I was given.
Then of course there are probably only one or two places in the US that actually do "re-plating." I am told (due to gloppiness, expense) they will not do more than 2-4 microns, no matter how much you're willing to spend or how long you are willing to wait.
I can't speak for Europe.
Now if you folks overseas have a more liberal policy on this, then we on this side of the pond need to know that so we can send our instruments over there.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-11-25 22:17
Many German-trained technicians and horn makers tend to use 25+ microns. I know if you have your horn taken to Schille for an overhaul (MRS is his name for the specific system) he'll plate your horns with 25 microns after stripping any flakes of previous plating. I'm sending him my R13 after my SUPER acidic fingers finish laying waste to my nickel keywork :p
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-11-26 02:49
My close friend Maurice Reviol routinely makes keys for his Irish flutes and Aeolian pipes (these are sold in Europe under the name of an esteemed Irish maker). He routinely sends keys off to be plated (an addition to various parts/ligatures, old keys etc from his repair work) and then they are refitted to instruments etc. Routine. I have no idea how thick is plating it- my evaluation would be that it is THICK ENOUGH (a ligature of mine he included in a pile of bits for plating appears to be.... er... thickly plated... and has shown no signs of wear over several years).
It's no biggy, if you are happy to pay the ferryman.
Maurice, incidentally, studied/apprenticed at Schreiber making bassoons, and has worked with/for Francois Kloc, Danniel Bangham and Jochen Seggelke (making keys for a prototype bass clarinet many years back).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-26 03:08
This is really eye-opening news to me, THANK YOU!!!!
I think what is done here in the US is electroplate. What you are describing must be something different and more labor intensive requiring craftwork long since lost to this country.
......thank you !!!!
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-26 03:57
The keys are electroplated in tanks in the traditional method - plating plants in the UK and mainland Europe all use the same methods as far as I know - the same methods should be available in the US and Canada. As to why they won't plate as much as 25 microns is a mystery.
There's also barrel plating where small components like undrilled pillars and other small parts are plated in a tumble dryer-like machine, but they're not plated as thickly as 25 microns with this method. If you want 25 microns on your pillars and other small fittings, then it's best to wire them up on brass or copper wire so they get plated along with the rest of your keywork.
I prefer not to have a copper flash but have a nickel flash onto which goes the silver plate as nickel provides a very flat, smooth surface for silver to adhere to (old silver plated Selmer saxes have a layer of nickel under the silver), but Buffet's platers use a copper flash and then silver, but the results are great. They also check the newly plated keys and tidy up any imperfections which is good.
I've used Potters in Aldershot (famous for band flutes and military drums) back in the '80s who also did an excellent job, but they've since gone.
The company that does Buffet's plating also makes key castings for them and several other companies, so they know what they're doing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-11-26 05:02
I've met several players whose sweat ate through silver plating within a couple of years. The only metal that absolutely doesn't corrode is gold. Al Gallodoro had every bit of metal gold plated on his clarinet, bass clarinet and alto sax.
The amount of gold is quite small.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-26 06:46
Ken,
But this DOES go back to thickness as well. My Wurlitzers where very thickly silver plated (so much so Brannen actually drilled a hole into one of the keys to see just how far the silver went) and I never had corrosion issues with them!
Though I am so frightened of corrosion at this point I want my clarinets to have gold in them to ward of the "juju."
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-26 13:53
>> I think what is done here in the US is electroplate. What you are describing must be something different and more labor intensive requiring craftwork long since lost to this country. <<
No, it's pretty much the same thing almost everywhere.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-27 11:56
To add a bit more...
First, it is electroplating pretty much anywhere, or at least anywhere I know. This includes Anderson in the USA and every woodwind company I know.
It is really standard to fit the keys between posts. It doesn't matter if this is done after replating after swedging loose keys, or any other reason. It is a standard repair. You can even do this with pretty basic tools, though there are specialised tools that make this better/faster and easier to do very accurately.
As far as fitting hinge tubes and rod screws, from talking to a plater years ago I remembered that regular plating/replating wouldn't plate the inside, or something like that. I talked about this with an expert plater again (a different one) and here is what they said:
"It will not plate inside the tube. In order to plate inside a tube there has to be an anode smaller than the I.D. in the center without touching the inside of the tube. Impossible for a hinge tube."
Post Edited (2014-11-27 11:58)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-27 13:55
If that was true then I wouldn't be reaming out key barrels on newly plated keywork so the rod screws will fit. Plating will take place on the insides of key barrels and screw holes which has to be removed when fitting keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-11-27 13:55)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-27 14:45
AFAIK there is some plating getting into the ends of the inside, maybe sometimes enough to make screw not fit, but it's not that the entire inside is getting plated with that thickness... or at all. I guess pivot screw holes can get plating in them and the ends of the keys too of course.
At least that's what I was told by two expert plating companies, but I will try to find more information about it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-27 15:23
The inside of key barrels definitely doesn't receive the full thickness of plating as the outer surfaces, but it often has enough plating deposited inside to prevent the rod screw or key rod from fitting. The free ends of keys will usually receive more plating than the middles.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: j8649
Date: 2014-11-28 04:06
Hi Paul,
You didn't see me, but you talked with me on the phone. My Uebel clarinet arrived yesterday. I am thankful this Thanksgiving Day for my new clarinet. Thank you for your assistance.
Julie
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Author: NB
Date: 2014-11-28 05:08
Julie, could you please give any report
on your Uebel? Like comparing to other clarinets that you know?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-29 00:58
I hope that I was helpful.
And I second the request for an evaluation once you've had some time to have fun with it and adapt to to it!
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: j8649
Date: 2014-11-30 03:31
I bought the Ubel Superior model. I have only had it two days, but my impression is that is its not quite as resistant to play as a Buffet R13 or a Yamaha CSG, but it is more resistant that a Leblanc. Its weight is heavier than most clarinets much like a Selmer Recital. The keyword is superb with great spring action. The left hand C#/F# key is slightly shorter than on other clarinets. The auxiliary LH Eb/Ab key does not interfere with the LH C#/F# key as is a problem on some models of clarinets. The scale is very even, and the transition from one octave to the next is better than my Buffet R13. The upper clarion and altissimo notes are not as shrill as on some other clarinets, but are not quite as good as on my Ridenour clarinet. Intonation is excellent. The intonation is great at all dynamic level. The Uebel clarinet appears to be a premium clarinet model without the premium price. These are the opinions of a non-professional player. What suits one player may not be be the same for another. All brands of clarinets have advantages and disadvantages. I would include the Uebel in the group of clarinets that I like. I hope this helps.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-30 03:34
Do the Uebels have the same springing on the F#/C# key as Buffets with the spring on the key and a slot milled into the body? If so, that's a disappointment as it's not an easy spring to get the balance and feel right.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: j8649
Date: 2014-11-30 04:52
It appears that the springs are needle springs on the Uebel. On my Buffet, the springs appear also to be needle springs with nothing milled into the body also.
Post Edited (2014-11-30 05:08)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-30 14:56
There is a slot milled into the lower joint under the F#/C# key barrel on Buffets - you'll see that on yours.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: j8649
Date: 2014-12-01 06:40
I am sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking. I was looking under the LH F#/C#, and you mean the RH F#/C#, correct? My Buffet does have a cut out under the keys, but the Uebel does not.
Julie
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-01 09:40
Attachment: 2014-12-01-07.35.jpg (153k)
>> My Buffet does have a cut out under the keys <<
Maybe you were right but some Buffet models (e.g. R13) have a cut out under the right pinky keys. This is separate from what Chris mentioned.
He specifically asked about the F#/C# spring. On some Buffet models (I think all their pro models) the spring is connected to the hinge rod and resting on a cut part in the wood, as opposed to most keys, where the spring is connected to the post and resting against a cradle (usually) on the key hinge.
I attached a photo showing both cut outs.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-02 16:26
FWIW I asked another expert plater and they confirmed what others told me, that only a little bit of of plating is getting into the inside of hinge tubes, but in general, the inside is not getting plated.
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