 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-08-08 21:16
Attachment: broken R13.jpg (695k)
A local repair woman sent me this, along with the following comment:
"This is what happens when you march with your R13".
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2014-08-08 21:32
Funny thing, all of those folks at West Point are outside all the time with their R13s but that's never happened to any of them. I wonder if something OTHER than marching was going on????
Scott Brodt
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-08-08 21:36
I wonder if this is a Greenline instrument? They have had a reputation for breaking in the middle ...
I marched with a Penzel Mueller Super Brillante during the late 60s and never had an issue, except a crack developed from the register vent ... had it pinned and all was OK ...
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-08-08 22:43
The center joint tenon has the most leverage on it of any spot on the clarinet. It was probably dropped and stepped on. This would happen on a Bundy, too.
Scott - If the West Point Band is like when I was in it, everyone is issued a Bundy for all outdoor use. The only exception would be be for an outdoor concert at Trophy Point in very mild weather.
TomS - Early Greenline Buffets had a tendency break at the center joint tenon. This was quickly fixed. This one has an adjustable thumb rest, so it's from later.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2014-08-08 23:33
I have a Greenline R-13 which the serial number indicates is from 1995. It's tenon has never broken and it has the adjustable thumb rest, which was installed a few years ago during a routine visit to the repair shop when the tech saw I was using a neckstrap with the clarinet.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2014-08-08 23:41
Ken,
the last time some of the guys were down to play clarinets and mouthpieces they were thinking of using nothing but Greenline for outdoors. I do not know if that dream came true. When I see one again I'll ask!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-08-08 23:46
In my opinion this is not a wood clarinet. The presence of an adjustable TR proves nothing other than the clarinet has one.
Bob Draznik
Post Edited (2014-08-08 23:48)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-08-09 01:03
I agree ... does not look like R13 of wood or Greenline ... looks like ABS ... most clarinets will break like this if given a good blow ... I suspect wood would show some splintering, so must be something else ...
Yeah, I knew early Greenline material had some problems ... but I don't think there was many issues unless the horn was stressed in some unusual way.
I've seen a maple wood bassoon broken in half when dropped on concrete stairs ...
Hardwoods can be a lot tougher material than you'd think ...
Tom
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-09 01:50
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,3779/broken%20R13.jpg
That's typical of a Greenline R13 that's being used for marching as there is too much stress being exerted on them when standing at ease as they're often held by just the top joint and put down to the player's side very quickly.
It's clearly a Greenline if you look close enough - all the clues are there staring you in the face including the obvious green dot on it which is a dead giveaway for starters and it has R13 keywork, plus the logos on the barrel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-08-09 01:51)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-08-09 02:11
Didn't see green dot! OK ...
I stand corrected. Greenline it is.
My Buffets were much older and, as I remember, looked a bit different ... my old memory cells failing ...
Gosh! I am sorry if this material is less robust than I had hoped ... it still must have many advantages ...
Maybe its time for proprietary plastics to debut with the French pro instruments ...
Tom
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-08-09 04:18
Yup, greenline (see the dot).
Dunno what the kid did to it, most likely dropped.
I'll find out more tomorrow (the tech takes lessons from me, should be an interesting discussion).
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-09 05:45
Falling upon a hard surface (even just from upright sitting on bell to prone) will cause this.
I broke a Greenline exactly like the photo as it toppled upon a concrete floor with a thin rubber coating (not enough rubber to absorb the shock presented by the concrete).
Also dropped a Greenline clarinet from the height of being held while seated; one point along the edge of the bell hit a linoleum covered concrete floor and the tenon of the bottom joint snapped off just like the picture.
The only 'problem' with Greenline is that it is brittle and behaves like any other brittle material with poor tensile strength.
I do have a proposed fix for this that may even imbue the material with more 'wood like' resonance. If any of you with the means to experiment along these lines feel free to give it a whirl. My thought comes from the idea that nature has many examples of super strong materials that are only that way because they are actually a combination of two materials with two different attributes. The best example to start with is the beak of a toucan. These beaks are large and strong enough to break open nuts and yet they are almost as light as styrofoam. How is this possible? The majority of the beak is a very porous brittle matrix (mostly air). However there is a thin layer over the top of this matrix that is very flexible (like rubber - very high tensile strength). This layered matrix resists shattering due to the flexible coating, yet remains lightweight.
The better example to get at what I hope for Greenline material is the seashell. Seashells are 90% (or more) calcium carbonate (same material as a piece of chalk. You can very easily snap a piece of chalk in half. Why can't you do this with an abalone (for example)? Seashells lay down a very thin layer of protein (again, a very flexible, rubbery substance) every time they excrete a new layer of calcium carbonate. That's why a shell of any decent thickness is just about impossible to merely snap in half in your hand.
So........
If someone where to make a billet of successive layers of mostly Greenline with very thin alternating layers of some material that remains a bit 'stretchy' it would, like the seashell or the toucan beak (or like wood) be far more resistant to a snapping sort of break. My additional hope is that such a material may even mimic the resonance of wood which is after all a layered material.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-08-09 05:55)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-09 14:23
They should just fit aluminium or titanium middle tenons to these things - at least there's safety in knowing it won't be the tenon that will break!
You don't have to drop these clarinets to break them, merely stressing the middle tenon with a sudden jolt whilst holding either the upper or lower joint only will break it off if done repeatedly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-09 14:38
And the bottom tenon, and the middle of a Greenline bass clarinet's body where the big holes oppose each other!
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-09 15:34
I think it's utter madness making Greenline bass clarinets!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-08-09 16:01
I'm all for screw-in tenons...having a 'sacrifice' part that snaps first and thus may protect more expensive parts may seem like a good idea. (needn't nylon pins like in the LH levers, but even these saved my instrument when I was distracted enough not to zipper my case)
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-08-09 16:46
The original concept of Greenline using epoxy was stupid beyond belief. Who really knows what they are doing now? An intelligent Materials Engineering concept would have been to use the "grenadilla dust" with one of the engineering plastics or even one of the Thermosets. Fillers had already been used for years with the plastics in this way.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-09 16:58
They could reinforce the entire billets with carbon fibre in a similar manner reinforced concrete is made so the carbon fibres run from tenon to tenon - only problem being all the holes drilled through which could compromise the integrity.
Maybe form the bore from carbon fibre matting and resin on a bore specific mandrel and then build up the rest of the joint thickness on top of that out of Greenline material or fit a premade carbon fibre/resin bore sleeve to a ready bored out Greenline billet whichever is easier. But that will no doubt be expensive.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-08-09 20:27
Chris P wrote:
> I think it's utter madness making Greenline bass clarinets!
I've always found it VERY suspicious that Buffet has never issued a video or shown how they "mix" the Greenline material. How much epoxy? How much "grenadilla dust". etc...
Or is it really just a plastic clarinet with added marketing?
Call me a doubter.
...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-09 20:48
They've been playing their cards close to their chest on this since day one. All I guess is it's a mix of wood dust (nowhere near the 95% or whatever they claim) and resin that's formed under pressure into billets and baked in an autoclave, then machined like any regular wooden billet.
I can't see evidence of carbon fibres in the broken off tenons and sockets I've seen unless they have pulverised that too which makes it useless as a binding agent.
I've seen knock-off Greenline style joints from China which are even more brittle than Buffet's - even though wood dust is used, the inherent tensile strength is long gone due to the lack of natural grain running the length of the billets, so it's a composite material and just as brittle as Bakelite.
Plastic clarinets will break with a clean, shiny break - but Greenline is definitely granular in its composition.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-09 22:31
Chris,
You seem to have an idea how this material is fabricated. Is there any chance that the process can be achieved in layers?
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-08-09 22:35
It appears to be built up in layers as some of the fractures I've seen follow the layers from when it was built up.
It's like the layers of sand in this souvenir from Alum Bay:
http://www.wjnigh.co.uk/catalogue/images/S007.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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