 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: NB
Date: 2014-08-02 15:45
Hello everybody.
I played clarinet (high school level) in the past for about 5 years and I returned to playing it again few months ago. I regularly play long tones, and scales.
My clarinet in the past was F. Arthur Uebel, quite old -- from 60s or 70s and I was pretty happy with it (an intermediate instrument).
My current clarinet is wooden Leblanc Noblet 40 which is from 60s and which I bought specifically for returning to playing. I had it worked on by a local technician (he repaired a crack and repadded one or two keys for better sealing)
My usual mpc B45 Lyre (which I successfully used in the past) and reeds are 3.5 or 3.5+ (V12) (also a usual setup from the past). I used Fobes Debut in the beginning of playing Noblet but B45 is better for me in the sense of pitch and tone control.
My troubles are mainly with upper register (including clarion).
The tone is quite poor. It is in pitch according to the tuner but it is very "narrow" especially when I play forte. I found that it sounds better with heavier reeds but this doesn't completely fix the problem as it is physically hard to play heavier reeds.
The clarinet itself is a bit more free blowing than my Uebel in altissimo register but at the same time it's harder to control the quality of the sound when playing forte so that on this "new" instrument I get tired faster.
By the way, I noticed that Noblet's "narrow" altissimo causes a noticeable teeth pain whereas my previous clarinet didn't. So the "narrow drilling" sound is noticed not only by my ears.
I need to mention that my old "better" instrument is now far away from me but this summer I had a chance to play it and found no problems with the quality of the sound, so the good impression is something I checked recently.
So, what do you think the reasons for the bad sound could be?
May it need cleaning or oiling?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-02 17:48
I see a LOT of material to work with here.
I tend to a medium/closed opening (like an M13), but when I visited Brad Behn his immediate suggestion was to go down a tad on the opening. His observation was that I compress the reed down with my embouchure to that point anyway. So, as he summed up, why not start with the opening where I put it and save the added stress?
I would humbly suggest that this may be your issue as well. In my opinion the B45 is pretty open. Adding a 3.5 reed to that seems a bit excessive. This combo (for me) would be very hard to control regards to a constant timbre throughout the register (mainly), and pitch as well. You seem to experience this at louder levels where you need to 'release' tension on the reed to allow it to produce more sound.
Many have said that each of us have individual approaches and need to find the mouthpieces that suite our individual needs............ however, I would suggest as Bonade would, that there are pretty standard parameters that seem to work for most top professionals.
I would submit the suggestion to try (over the course of some time like a month or so) to get used to a smaller open mouthpiece such as the Vandoren Masters CL4, or M13 or 5RV Lyre.........with the same strength reed.
What you need to do is engage ALL the muscles around the mouthpiece: lower lip/chin; cheek muscles (up to about a half inch past the sides of your embouchure (same muscles you use to suck a thick shake through a straw); and the upper lip muscles (exerting some energy downward). By doing this, you take the jaw muscles out of the equation (really only ideal for chewing through steak and breaking nuts!).
You will gain GOBS of control over the sound and pitch with this approach since there is less variance of distances for the reed to move away from the mouthpiece while vibrating.
The bottom line with sound, is that you get a big, full, rich, resonant sound by using fast, focused air (push from core, use natural or "EEEE" position of tongue, and tongue tip of tongue to tip of reed).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-02 18:27
I'm intrigued by your description of your tone on the Noblet as "narrow." I wonder if, rather than the tone's being "quite poor" you actually are producing a characteristic sound that you just don't like. Maybe you like a rounder, less pointed (some would say less "focused") tone than the Noblet is designed to produce. That a harder reed brings you closer to the sound you want, but at the expense of uncomfortably greater embouchure effort makes this an even stronger possibility. Also the fact that your "poor" sound seems to become really unsatisfactory only when playing forte suggests a possible mismatch of tone concepts. The strongest suggestion that the problem is one of concept and expectation comes from your having played the Uebel recently (in your reincarnation to the clarinet world) and liked the sound it produced better than what you get from the Noblet.
It's so hard to discuss these things over a text-based medium like an Internet BB without being able to hear you play. All of Paul's suggestions might be spot on, and maybe the Noblet setup (especially the mouthpiece) can be tweaked to make you more comfortable. Maybe the sound you get from the Noblet is, indeed, poor, or maybe it's just a matter of taste. You may miss a quality that was intrinsic to the old Uebel. You are, after all, comparing a German-made instrument (probably fairly old) to a French one.
It may be that your two best options are to look for another Uebel or comparable German Boehm clarinet (I'm assume your old one was a Boehm model, since you don't mention that difference with the Noblet) or learn to control the Noblet on its own terms, which may include accepting a different overtone spectrum.
Is the "teeth pain" in your top teeth or your bottom ones? I have always gotten pain, like a dentist drilling, from the vibrations in the mouthpiece beak against my top teeth. It's one of several reasons why I finally made the switch to double-lip. A rubber patch on the top of the mouthpiece under your teeth will eliminate the pain and also, by cutting down on the sound that reaches your ears by bone conduction, may cut down on some of the higher-end overtones you hear when you play.
Karl
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2014-08-02 18:43
One or more lessons with an experienced clarinet teacher might provide the quickest answer to "is it the instrument or me" and "how do I resolve my problem."
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Author: NB
Date: 2014-08-02 19:10
Paul and Karl, thank you for your attention to the problem.
Yes, I noticed that my style of playing is quite "bruteforcing", so that on more closed mouthpieces I just shut my reed up by pressing it too much, like on B45.
You probably dealt many times with adjusting your stiff reeds, removing layer of cane to make it softer. If you overdo this job removing too much then it may result in a reed which produces sound easily but the sound is precisely that "poor" and "narrow" that I meant.
This is just for comparison, I really use more or less fresh reeds which I play out of box without adjusting them.
There is nothing particular in my Uebel (yes, it is Boehm), it is an instrument, perhaps of the level of E11. I tried once E13 which sounded better than my Uebel in tone and was more free blowing, but it didn't feel too far more superior instrument still.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-08-02 20:56
You ask some people what time it is, they tell you how to make a watch.
Play much more long tones in all registers. Keep sweetening it up. Every day. Case closed.
B>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-02 21:03
"Brute force," aka ........biting.
You need to NOT consciously engage your jaw muscles! Yes, they are used ever so slightly, but if you are thinking about it, it's way too much.
This is precisely why the upper register is thin. In that register only very tip of the reed is vibrating, but if you are smushing the reed down to the mouthpiece you'll only get the buzziest quality of the sound. Remember, your tone needs to ride the air column......so NEVER choke off the air!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-02 21:11
Why do you so often dismiss everyone else's suggestions as though only you know anything? Make your suggestion, but you have no grounds on which to say "case closed."
Karl
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Author: NB
Date: 2014-08-02 22:50
By the way, Karl, just to answer your question, the pain is actually in the lower teeth.
Today I tried a bit heavier reed and less brute force and then it began to sound more like I want. But then I didn't have enough "juice" in the lower register. OK, maybe it is a matter of getting myself adjusted to this instrument more (I had a huge break this summer using my Uebel there where I was, instead of Noblet ), perhaps with a different mouthpiece.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-02 23:02
Karl,
If you are referring to me, I felt a follow up on this was warranted. Your response remains as valid as it did initially. This is the internet. It's up to the purveyors to decide for themselves what is valid. No offense or discredit was intended.
Whoops, I just caught the reference. Ya' know, I didn't even pay attention to that comment.
...........Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-08-02 23:06)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-02 23:12
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
> Whoops, I just caught the reference. Ya' know, I didn't even
> pay attention to that comment.
>
:) No issue with you, Paul.
Karl
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-08-02 23:31
I used to have a huge biting problem until fairly recently. I've found that using a mouthpiece cushion for my top teeth and using tape over my bottom teeth has helped me to get rid of some of my bad habits, since it forces you to keep your jaw more open. It also cushions your teeth so they don't hurt after playing.
I was also using a fairly resistant mouthpiece (Vandoren M13 Lyre), and I think one of the reasons I bit was to close the tip opening, thus making it easier to play. I switched to a less resistant mouthpiece with a smaller tip opening (Clark Fobes CWF) so biting wasn't necessary.
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Author: William
Date: 2014-08-04 03:10
One way to help cure your tendency to bite is to begin each practice session playing with a double lip embouchure--lips covering both upper and lower teeth. If you cannot make a sound, then your reed is definitely too hard. After a few minutes of double, switch back to single but try to use more upper lip support rather than just all tooth. After you catch on to upper lip involvement, your tone quality and intonation should also improve. This will take some focused, relentless practice and will not happen "over night" but with the "long haul".
Another observation that may help--too many clarinetist's rely more on the stiffness of the reed for tone quality than on the formation and strength of the embouchure. I recommend softer rather than harder combined with the embouchure practice I mentioned above. Playing clarinet need not be painful.....good luck.
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Author: NB
Date: 2014-08-09 00:06
First, I need to really thank Paul Aviles for his advice to switch to a more closed mouthpiece.
I started using Ridenour's Encore which I haven't been using for a while and compared to my B45Lyre it delivers pretty good sound and much less pressure is needed with the same 3.5 Vandoren reed.
Of course, it requires some care on making sound "not plastic" on the plastic Encore.
Which is possible.
Second, I realized that part of my problem was that I didn't play this particular clarinet for a while, so adjusting myself to the instrument took about a week. It is understandable that I wasn't able to make good sound right in the first days of playing.
Thank you all who participated in the discussion.
Post Edited (2014-08-09 00:07)
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