 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kev182
Date: 2011-11-13 00:38
Has anyone tried the M30D? would really like to hear your thoughts on it and what reeds you used
Thanks!
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Author: Le9669
Date: 2011-11-13 07:38
I'm currently using v12 reeds on this mouthpiece (3.5). I like the center in the tone I get and crispness of articulation with this mouthpiece. rue lepic 56's work quite well on this mouthpiece as well. I think the sound gets German as you can get on a French (ish) setup without using an actual Wurlitzer.Regarding the sound, it's hard to explain the overtones with this mouthpiece. You'll just have to play it to understand it, it's very different from the majority of French mouthpieces that Vandoren makes. Hope this was interesting and helped. =)
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Author: sdr
Date: 2011-11-13 12:35
I agree with Le9669 regarding the centered tone and excellent articulation. Intonation is excellent on my R13 Greenline. I use this mouthpiece with VD Rue le Pic 3.5's and VD Optimum lig.
-sdr
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Author: W&MClarinetist
Date: 2011-11-15 03:03
I agree with the previous in regards to the centered tone and freedom with articulation. I actually purchased 2 of the M30D's when I ordered some, one that has a rounder sound with just a hint of resistance, and the other which is much freer for articulation. I still don't know which I prefer, since they are both wonderful. I do believe, however, your preference for tip opening is important. What mouthpiece are you currently using? I came from a B40 lyre to a M30 lyre, before finally finding satisfaction in the M30D.
I've messed around with a lot of different reeds since using the M30D. I started with Rico Reserve Classics (3.5+) which was what I had been using. It wasn't the best combo, so I went through a series of different Vandoren's, even exploring the Blackmasters, which are a German cut, and they were very clear for articulation. However, I have currently settled on using Gonzalez FOF's 3 1/4 with the M30D and have been getting the perfect amount of resistance combined with a rich, dark, clear, yet surprisingly free sound.
I would definitely recommend trying these mouthpieces-I've tried a variety of mouthpieces in the last year, and this was by far the best I've come across. But everyone is different and it really depends on your mouthpiece preferences!
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Author: kev182
Date: 2011-11-15 03:47
Interestingly we've followed the same path of mouthpieces.
I originally played B40L with 3 1/2 V12... loved the sound but took too much air. Then played the M30L with 3 1/2+ V12... nice sound but never felt comfortable on it, not very predictable with attacks. Then I tried two M30Ds and two regular M30s.
I liked the M30D's centered tone and roundness, but it lacked a certain flexibility (possibly due to the ridiculous thickness of the rails)... it also played significantly higher than the 13 series mouthpieces.
I then tried the regular M30 (13 series) with #4 rico reserve classic and have never been happier with a mouthpiece/reed combo... it almost seems too good to be true - I'm waiting to see if it pass the test of time. (ordering more M30s to possibly find a better one) The reserves never worked for me in the past... but they are fantastic on this mouthpiece... maybe they work better on longer lays?
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-11-15 22:30
The M30 design is one that is not my favorite for several reasons. Generally they are:
1) The tip opening is 1.15, which is vastly more open than the range I stay within (0.96-1.04). The resistance from such a large tip is not preferable and I don't find anything beneficial from this aspect of the design.
2) The facing length is what I would refer to as extreme. The long length is used to remove some of the inherent resistance in the large tip opening, which gives it a more comfortable blow-through than the B45, which has a shorter facing and more resistance. This length, IMO, forces the player to bite more than what should be necessary to gain response and focus.
3) The rails are too thick to accomidate quickness in response and flexibility of sound.
4) The usual reed requirement for a 1.15 tip would be something in the range of 2.5-3, maybe 3.5 depending on the type of reed. The facing length, although it removes some of the resistance, does just enough to allow players to use reeds that are too hard. People generally will use the stronger reed to provide the focus and stability that is lost with the somewhat extreme facing.
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY:
Most players have to use excessive embouchure pressure, reed strength, and air pressure just to get the mouthpiece to respond and sound clearly. Mouthpieces should be ready to respond quickly with a resonant and clear sound that will leave our embouchure style and air stream to be flexibile to create beautiful music, which IMO is not possible if you're having to use force to get the mouthpiece to function.
So- the question is: What does the M30 or M30 D do that a more comfortable and efficient design could not?
I'm very ineterested to hear people's thoughts on this topic!
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Author: ddavani
Date: 2011-11-16 02:25
Both the M30D and B40D are excellent mouthpieces. The very open facing provides a good resistance and helps you attain good focus on a French clarinet that is comparable to that in a German sound. I would definitely recommend it, especially to students because it helps fix problems with air-flow and sound.
-Dave Davani
http://allclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Le9669
Date: 2011-11-16 03:25
NBeaty:
I will have to say that Mouthpieces are very personal things. This is something that has been said many many times but still holds truth -> What works for one player might not always work for others.
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Author: kev182
Date: 2011-11-16 18:46
What works, works. I went from playing a very closed Richard Hawkins R model with strength 4 V12 reeds to an M30 with strength 4.0+ rico reserve classic.
On the M30, I have to work much less and don't have to bite like I did on the Hawkins. I just think there are too many variables to completely rule out a style of mouthpiece for the entire population based on your own experience. The M13 Lyre with #4 V12 took far more effort for me to play compared to the M30 I'm using now.
Post Edited (2011-11-16 20:25)
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Author: jenthemusician
Date: 2014-01-03 15:25
I have been using an M30D since September. At first I was using Vandoreen Traditional/Blue Box 4 reeds, which worked very well for me. This month, I tried switching to Vandoreen White Master 4 and 1/2s. It's not working so well for me, so I think I'll switch back to traditional/blue 4s. (I also tie on my reed with twine when using the M30D rather than using a ligature, so I don't know if that changes what kind of reeds work best.)
Good luck with your new mouthpiece. I love the M30D!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-01-05 10:52
NBeaty, I agree with you that the facing on the M30 and M30D is very open and long. Somewhat like you, I prefer a tip opening between .096 and 1.02. But I think the appeal of these two mouthpieces is fairly easy to understand. Clarinetists drawn more to a mellower, less edgy, less bright sound find that these two mouthpieces give them what they want at an affordable price. Add to that the claim that the D model can be used on a German bore instrument,and you increase the market for that model even more. In the official puff pieces for Vandorens (paid for by the company) several prestigious clarinetists say just about the same thing concerning the two 30 models that the average clarinetist says. Daniel Gilbert, for instance, a professor at Michigan with 12 years experience in the Cleveland Orchestra, says that players use an M30 when they want a darker and more "chocolaty" sound. The Vandoren 5RV, 5Rv lyre, M13, M15, and M13 lyre, to most players don't seem to sound very dark and chocolaty. Descriptions for the sound of those pieces would range from lively and resonant to bright and edgy. If you want chocolate you get an M30 or, for dark chocolate, an M30D. When Alessandro Carbonare and P Fortenza want this kind of sound, they too say in the ads that they choose either the M30 or the M30D.
Vandoren is not the only company to go after the dark chocolate market with a long, open, thick-railed mouthpiece. Clarke Fobes' Europa model has these characteristics in a much more manageable mouthpiece open to about 1.04 at the tip (with options for greater tip openings). Charles Bay offered a model like the M30 decades ago that sold well in Europe. It is unlikely that the demand for this kind of sound will decrease in America anytime soon. So the big question is not why players are drawn to this kind of mouthpiece but whether designs can be offered to produce the same kind of sound more efficiently.
Some of the most recent entries in this sector of the clarinet market are the G (for German?) models of Walt Grabner and Richard Hawkins. Do these models reach the dark chocolate ideal by using wide rails and a long, open facing or by other, perhaps, better ways? Hawkins wrote me that his model has a tip opening of just 1.04, much closer than the M30, and I believe that Grabner's G11 star facing is within the range I like. Practically speaking, how would you design a mouthpiece for the dark chocolate market that did not entail design extremes and was efficient to play? Can you name some mouthpieces available on the American market now that you prefer that encourage production of this particular shade of clarinet tone? For example, do any of Behn's models sound that dark and chocolaty?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-01-05 12:07
to jenthemusician -
Vandoren White Masters are significantly narrower than Black Masters, which are narrower than Traditionals. I've tried White Masters on a French mouthpiece and found them too narrow to seal reliably. The margin of error is microscopic. I do play Black Masters.
You might try Traditionals or Black Masters sanded slightly narrower on a flat file or 400 grit sandpaper over plate glass. I do that all the time. Kal Opperman taught me that if you make the reed very slightly narrower than the outside of the rails, you can jog it from side to side to find the most resonant position.
Ken Shaw
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Author: KSL
Date: 2014-07-16 23:33
I also have two M30D mouthpieces. The first one I purchased has a 1-2mm ridge above the horizontal ligature lines. The Vandoren writting is in gold lettering. I like it very much, but it is not as clear and free blowing as I wish, compared to the regular M30 which I love. I purchased a second M30D from a different vendor. The ridge is not present. Also the VD lettering at the base of the mouthpiece is white instead of gold. Otherwise it looks the same. The second mouthpiece is the best I have ever played. I get a beautiful, rich, round sound using 56 Rue Lepic reeds, strength 3.5. I cannot explain the different external appearance and whether or not it is related to the different mouthpiece performance. Also, I am very pleased with the M30D intonation on my Buffet R13
clarinets. I use the Buffet Moennig barrels. The throat tones are right in tune.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2014-07-17 05:35
After reading the various comments on the M30D I decided to try the one that I own which was sitting in a row of different Vandoren mouthpieces which I have played at one time or another. I had put it aside because I felt that it was a little too tubby sounding for the reeds that I use (Rico Reserve Classic 3.5plus). I tried several reeds that I'm currently using and had the exact response that I had before. However, I had just put aside two reeds that were a little too bright and thin in tone. When I tried both of them on the M30D they matched it to a tee! I had the warm and clear tone that I can get on the regular M30s that I normally play on. Have any of you had similar experiences? I've never been a proponent of switching mouthpieces depending on the reed being used but I'm thinking about it now. (I heard a story years ago about a well known principal clarinetist who would carry around a case full of mouthpieces which he personally faced and he would switch mouthpieces depending on the reed that he wanted to use.)
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Author: Yador
Date: 2017-11-05 19:09
Can be use Vandoren white master with M30D and B40D or they sound better (dark chocolate sound) with v12/rue lepic reeds?
Which of two mouthpiece have more "dark chocolate" sound?
With what hardness of reed do these mouthpiece play? Maybe 3 1/2 B40D and 3 1/2+ M30D?
Seabreeze: I like that way of describing sound, xD.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-11-06 00:57
Yador,
Since my post in 2014, many players I knew who were using Vandoren M30D and M40D have moved on to the Vandoren BD5, which seems to give them similar qualities with compactness and good projection. Since then, I've moved in another direction towards more vibrancy in the tone, with Brad Behn's Aria reeds and his small chamber model EPIC mouthpiece. I'm not so interested in the "chocolate" flavor any more.
Post Edited (2017-11-06 00:59)
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Author: Yador
Date: 2017-11-06 01:44
Seabreeze,
Thank you very much for the information. Good to Know. Anyway, I have to try the B40D and the M30D to get rid of doubts. I still like the dark chocolate sound, xD
I have played with BD5 and it is a very good mouthpiece.
Regards!
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-11-06 06:05
Attachment: Rossini excerpt.mp3 (1579k)
My wife and I both play M30D and have several examples of this mouthpiece lying around, I have measured the facings and found them to all be in the 1.09-1.11mm range as far as tip openings are concerned, so much closer than the standard M30. My measurements have in the past proven comparable to those made by Brad Behn and Mike Lomax, so this result is probably fairly accurate.
Here is a short excerpt from a performance where I am playing M30D with a Legere Signature sop sax 3.25 reed... judge for yourself whether it's bright enough. In this recording I'm "playing a bit safe safe" as the pianist and I had only had one run through, and this was the last piece in an hour of music that had me swapping between clarinet/bass clarinet and a 10 key clarinet... sorry about the flat high D- that's not the mouthpiece!
dn
Post Edited (2017-11-06 06:09)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-11-07 01:16
Since this thread was started, the design of both the M30 and M30D has changed and the difference has narrowed. Previously the M30D was an M30 on steroids. I definitely liked the old M30 better and managed to find a few new-old-stock so my future is safe... ;-)
I still think the M30D lacks some flexibility and has too slow response *for my taste*.
I won't argue with this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpbo4G7F02g
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-11-07 05:44
Andrew Lowy, a new addition to the Los Angeles Philharmonic, may represent a recent trend among American players to adopt a more covered but also more compact and concentrated sound. I'm hearing more of this from players like Lowy who are using Vandoren BD5s. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Andrew+Lowy+clarinet.
Might call this the "chocolate concentrate" sound. Certainly very attractive in pieces like the Debussy Rhapsody.
Post Edited (2017-11-07 05:58)
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Author: Yador
Date: 2017-11-09 21:13
Donald:
It sounds nice but I'm looking to sound a little darker.
I've been testing three B40D with Rue Lepic 3. It's very easy to play and it sounds very sweet in the middle register and in mf, but when you play loud and high it sounds like a whistle, in solos like Petrushka, for example.
Seabreeze:
The BD5 with V12 3 1/2 + sounds less like a whistle in the high register than the B40D, but there must be some material that sounds even better.
At the moment I have not found it.
Greetings to all!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-11-10 01:59
Yador said "there must be some material that sounds even better." Yes, that material is wood. In the hands of an expert craftsman, wood probably has a darker sound than rubber. Most woods are more prone to cracking and warping, however, and it can be hard to find a wood mouthpiece that projects as well as rubber. One of the few mouthpiece makers today who does extensive work in wood is Hans Colbers in the Netherlands. He uses a new type of wooden blank developed by L & K that resists warping. So far, although he puts very traditional close facings on his German clarinet models, he likes open and long facings on his French Boehm ones. His model F9 is the closest to a BD5, but it is open 1.14 mm (instead of 1.13 mm) at the tip and quite long. You might want to discuss with him how he would make a version of the BD5 in wood.
https://www.hanscolbers.com/boehm-mouthpiece.php?LN=O.
Post Edited (2017-11-10 04:46)
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Author: Yador
Date: 2017-11-10 02:43
Seabreeze:
Thank you very much for the information.
The information you have given is very interesting.
No doubt I will investigate what you say and get in touch with Hans Colberg.
It will be necessary to check if the tuning is correct and stable and has sound volume. In any case it is interesting and we have to try.
Thanks again seabreeze!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-11-10 04:51
It might also be interesting to try a wood mouthpiece made by Greg Smith, Mike Lomax, or Ted Lane (if Lane is still making them). L & K sell their special wood blanks directly if you want one, and blanks are available from Zinner in at least 3 different kinds of wood. Smith, Lomax, and Lane all use Zinner wood blanks. Buying very old wood mouthpieces (Buffet, for instance) over Internet is very risky, since they are apt to be warped or worn.
Post Edited (2017-11-10 06:43)
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Author: YT
Date: 2017-11-10 16:23
To be more specific: the Leitner&Kraus blanks are, as far as I know, not exactly made from wood, but from a material that I would describe as wood composite, so it is more stable than a "normal" wooden mouthpiece. I've been playing those so called "Linea verde" mouthpieces from Leitner&Kraus for two years now and I really love them. They are even better than the normal mouthpieces from Leitner&Kraus, and those are already really good.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-11-11 06:13
Leitner and Kraus tried a very hard material called "Zelltec" which was intended to duplicate the tonal qualities of wood. Colbers says the Zelltec pieces were so hard that refacing them quickly wore down the refacing tools. After more research, Leitner and Kraus developed a new wooden mouthpiece that was processed in a way to minimize absorption of moisture and protect against warping. Both Jochen Leitner and Hans Colbers refer to these new L & K pieces simply as wooden or wood. In an email reply to me, Jochen Leitner said that "we also sell [these] wooden mouthpieces without facings." He then quoted the price for one or a small number of these (not for wholesale quantities) and it was quite reasonable.
For more info on L and K wooden blanks, email leitner-kraus@t-online.de.
Post Edited (2017-11-11 06:15)
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