 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-23 07:08
Thanks Stan--you beat me to it--the Ridenour post.
Now--I know, there are people out there who are very pationate about their ligatures, and feel they make a whole lot of difference in their play. And their opinions are fine by me, even though I don't agree with them.
Clearly, there are lousy ligatures, but I am of the school of thought, like Tom Ridenour, that once a ligature passes a series of basic tests, the difference between them isn't all that much based on method of attachment, materials, etc. Plastic screws that strip, ligatures that are very hard and time consuming to put on (string ligatures not part of this group), ligatures that don't hold a reed well--clearly all junk.
There may some feature unrelated to play, but that doesn't compromise play, like an ability for a ligature to go on and off fast, or stay on a mouthpiece as one switches between clarinets in orchestral settings that make it desired, but, as I put my bullet proof jacket on, let me suggest, to a potential scorched earth attack by dissenters, that with all the different designs, that no one ligature does it all, and the marginal difference between many of them may very well not be worth the money.
One of the many things that solidified my respect in Mr. Ridenour's only putting out products, in my opinion, that add value, is that he doesn't sell a ligature--perhaps because he hasn't found a way to add value to this device beyond that alreay in the marketplace, not because a ligature with his name on it wouldn't be good, or fail to sell.
As it regards things that might be interesting, if not doable or best for play, I am reminded of a battery powered wrench that allowed the user to press a button to open or close the wrench to the size of the bolt it was torquing.
I think that would be cool with a ligature, though doubt the small battery(ies) it could hold, even with gears, could tighten the reed to the mouthpiece adequately.
Let the dissention begin! ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2014-04-23 07:34
"One of the many things that solidified my respect in Mr. Ridenour's only putting out products, in my opinion, that add value, is that he doesn't sell a ligature--perhaps because he hasn't found a way to add value to this device beyond that alreay in the marketplace, not because a ligature with his name on it wouldn't be good, or fail to sell."
All well and good, and a perfectly fine opinion to have, but you may consider that you are now directly repeating marketing speak from Ted Ridenour. I'm guessing you heard this directly from him. Again, it's admirable, but let's not pretend that this is a conclusion you came to yourself through careful and unprompted reflection.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2014-04-23 07:41
More to the point of the video, it is a fun video but doesn't show much. The recording quality and predominantly loud dynamic was bound to make everything sound similar. I happen to agree that differences are usually small and that every ligature offers a little different to the mix. Still, this video didn't establish that and there are bad ligatures out there that don't maintain the same quality of sound at low dynamics throughout the register of the instrument. Still, there are small differences, which I know was Michael's point.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-23 07:48
Jim:
Truth be told, Ted and I have talked about this at great length at my initiation, several months ago when I was praising his dad to him.
(See where I write how another poster beat me to it.)
You'd have to ask Ted who came up with that line, but quite possibly, it was me--or at least I came up with it independently. I commented to Ted about dad's video referenced above, and how he doesn't market a ligature, speculating on why (doing so might not add market value.)
I understand healthy skepticism, but please don't be under a conclusion that I didn't come up with an observation I may have coined, and can guarantee I didn't formulate because I first heard it elsewhere.
Back to ligatures....
(I am independent of the music business)
Post Edited (2014-04-23 07:48)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-04-23 08:01
When I want the sound to open up (and it sounds louder, at least to my ears), I use rubber "O" rings ... about a dollar for a pair at the hardware store. I never have problems with the reed moving around on the MP table. However, the reed will come off if you change MP between instruments.
Otherwise, I use a basic Rovner about 99% of the time.
I studied briefly with a professor of clarinet at a university about 30 miles north of me. George played a home spun ligature made of very thin brass shim stock. It was also about 1/8" longer than most ligatures. Once fabricated it was initially mounted and tightened (two screw design) on an old MP that had a Vic Oliveri reed glued to it. The shank of the MP was in the jaws of a vice mounted on a bench. The very thin shim stock of the ligature was molded to the contour of the reed/MP by using a device like you would use to mash new screen into the groove of a screen door (a little roller-like widget). George played a Pyne MP and normally Oliveri reeds ... these were the days before V12s. He claimed they did extensive blind listening tests with input from the players and listeners and his ligature always came out on top. But dang, was it ugly!
Try the "O" rings, for a surprise! I got that idea from George, as well.
Tom
Post Edited (2014-04-24 02:32)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2014-04-23 08:09
No problem, Russ. I had heard something very similar years ago, but I take you at your stated word.
For me, the first criteria is that the ligature not slip when I remove the mouthpiece, but I've even been known to break that rule when I knew I didn't need flexibility.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-23 09:05
I had a rather odd experience with ligatures, while I was fighting trying to make a sustainable Legere playing scheme (where I would have a constant supply of good playing reeds, that I would replace or renew- how?- on a predictable schedule). I never got there, and abandoned Legere (in fairness root cause may well have been something in my playing that I may or may not have corrected since then).
Anyway, I started with a Rovner ligature per Tom's videos, and also drifted among the other ligatures that came with my various used clarinets. An old silver Buffet Crampon France was a frequent winner. A Leblanc ligature that I think was original (along with the mouthpiece) with my 1950's Dynamic 2, played well on occasion. I worked with Vandoren Optimum (lots of experimenting with different inserts, extras to hold the slippery Legeres etc etc), whatever the Vandoren string model is (hard to get), many iterations of my own string, and also the Bois which is basically the o-ring idea. The reason I kept experimenting was that- it seemed that every change I made, at least temporarily felt like an improvement. But ultimately ligatures were not the solution to my issues. And I learned the hard way to be ultra skeptical about any change that seems like a winner. It's made me afraid to try anything in a store or at a show- I have to live with it a while to really know.
So now that I'm semi-settled on Vandoren blue reeds (wouldn't it be funny if they were really blue?), balanced by ATG (still hoping for something more playable out of the box), with some beeswax on the back ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) - I'm back (for at least past 6-12 months) to a basic Rovner ligature. Every now and then I swap with that old Crampon silver just to see if it changes anything, and it doesn't. Bottom line for me was that the more control I have on everything else, the less the ligature matters, within limits. At least that's what I think today.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-23 09:12)
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-04-23 09:59
I'm 99% sure Russ pointed that out to me, I dont recall having thought about it until he said something about it to me.....to my mind it was a good point. When I clicked on the link to Toms video on ligatures I think it was the first time I'd ever watched it. I didn't, and still don't, spend a lot of time thinking about ligatures because the entirety of our "ligature business" (total misuse of the word "business") involves ordering ligatures from Rovner and including them as an optional upgrade with clarinets.
If I said something about it prior to the last month or two I don't recall it. I asked Tom recently why we don't make our own ligature and he basically said "because I like the Rovner".
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2014-04-23 10:10)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-23 13:15
I like "earspasm's" glasses. Other than that, I'm not impressed with the frat party approach to his argument. Tom, would you find this funny if he did the same demonstration with clarinets (wood vs rubber for example)?
By the way. How many of us bass clarinet players change mouthpieces? Or even take the mouthpiece off while playing (reference his argument against the Poppa ligature)? I use the first metal juncture to drain condensation.
Ligatures don't make or break a performance. No one would say that. In fact it is MUSICIANSHIP that makes a performance not any equipment at all. Point being, you can remove yourself from any one particular area of inquiry and make fun of it.....that's easy. It is much harder to get into the weeds and try and honestly figure out what makes something work or not work.
Just saying'
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-04-23 16:24
As much as I respect Mike Lowenstern, I don't think the video really demonstrated anything. In either case, both videos seemed to have a preconceived notion and then designed the argument or test to prove that point.
I laugh at the arguments dismissing the ligature marketing hype. To me they sound like much of the same I have heard promoting other products, like non wood clarinets.
Probably the key point I would make is- play what you like and what works for you. If you hear/feel a difference, great. Either way, use whatever you want.
Some people say that all beer say the same as well. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-04-23 17:54
try Velcro.my comment of a few years ago gives instructions on making your own, for very low cost.
richard smith
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-23 18:02
Ed:
I agree. The OP's video link doesn't establish scientific equality of most basically competant ligatures, though it does suggest it, and certainly doesn't refute it.
Perhaps its tongue-in-cheek manner does, at least for me, poke deserved fun at some of the prices and designs of ligatures out there.
Clearly your opinion is for me and others to respect, but I must confess that the laughter you cite, for me at least, paradoxically enough, is not at the arguments dismissing ligature marketing hype, but the arguments made by some ligature vendors in their marketing hype, or at least the prices they charge. This fee may help recoup their research costs, but consumers are more apt to pay for results, not the success or failure of research.
I agree it's a personal decision, but it concerns me when people buy into such hype that's backed by little independent blind, ideally triple blind (player, audience, test administrator) testing. Please consider the possibility that vendors have already done such scientific testing, found results not favoring their product, and didn't publish their findings.
Even if a "best practices" methodology could be achieved regarding the optimum placement of a model of ligature, the torquing of its screws etc., such findings might be as transient as a particular reed, at a particular point in time.
Paul:
I agree that scientific investigation would be useful, and this video wasn't science, anymore than I suspect its author intended it to be proof positive, or failed to make any valid points. If he challenged people's ideas, and invited vendors and buyers to do research, I think he hit his mark.
As Tom Ridenour didn't comment on the videos it's interesting that you quipped a wood vs. hard rubber test of similar style to the OPs video his way, (although one cited video was from his dad). I in no way speak for Ridenour Clarinet Products, but I'd love a video that got people to start to think, even if only a stepping stone to further research, about how once a quality material was chosen for clarinet design, that its playabilty and sound were more a function of craftsmanship than the plastic, hard rubber, grenadilla, rose- or boxwood etc. chosen to make it. I'd love a video suggesting that hard rubber has earned a place at the "adult table," if not the head chair given its dimentional stablity and dwindling supplies of grenadilla...but I digress.
===========
I think clarinets and diets have things in common. They're hard. There's no magic bullet to success. New diet/clarinet products come along, from pills to exercise regiments, to ligatures, accessories and other products, that frustrated people spent lots of money on and try. Some are good, few are paradigm changers, most are at best, nothing special.
I completely get that for the high end player, a ligature may get them, or make them feel as if it's getting them even marginal improvements in play. I completely get that all clarinets and ligatures are not alike.
But for most of the rest of us, dieting is about 3 nutritious balanced portion controlled meals a day with moderate exercise, and clarinet improvement is about lots of meaningful practice. Many of us enjoy trying new clarinet things, and improvements, to an extent, can be made using this approach. But doing so can also take away from practice time if we're not careful.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-04-23 20:19
So much of the business of instruments, reeds, ligatures, barrels, bells, etc, etc, all is about marketing hype and about the basic insecurity that most players have. We all want to play equipment that enables us to play the best we can as comfortably as possible. I believe that there are subtle differences in equipment and that some can tell while some cannot.
Sometimes it is the sensitivity of the player, sometimes what they need to do. I find that if I am playing something where the parts are pretty straightforward I can often afford to be much less fussy about my reeds than I would be if I am playing something in the repertoire that places great demand on range, dynamics, control etc.
Unfortunately, none of it is magic and the more one practices, the less any of it matters.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-04-23 21:09
I must confess that the better I get at reed selection and preparation, the less ligatures matter.
Tom Ridenour makes a good case for the Rovner in that the lig stays put and won't damage the tip or lay of the mouthpiece--to which I would add that it keeps wear on the mouthpiece exterior to a minimum. That's why I use a Rovner on my valuable mouthpieces.
On my "beer tent" clarinet with inexpensive mouthpiece, I use a silverplate Buffet-Crampon two-screw ligature that came included with another clarinet in my collection. With proper adjustment and the usage of good reeds, it plays just as nicely as anything else I've tried.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2014-04-23 21:13
I've tried a good number of ligatures and I think there are real, perceptible, though perhaps not audible differences between them.
As far as practical, objective differences go, some ligatures hold the reed weakly so that changing instruments at the mouthpiece can be very risky. Metal ligatures can run a greater risk of damaging the mouthpiece and reed when you put them on. Mechanically, a malleable ligature (string, fabric, leather) adapts to the reed's shape better than a metal band and minimizes inordinate pressures on the reed, although the metal ligatures with discrete contact points often work well. Finally, double-screw designs, while perhaps more adjustable, are less convenient than single-screw designs.
That said, I find that, just as different reeds have different performance characteristics, the same reed with different ligatures can feel or respond differently and THAT may cause the the performer (me) to play differently, producing a subtle, though audibly perceptible difference in performance.
FWIW, I perceive the following differences in the following ligatures that I've played:
- The inverted Bonade seems to cause the reed to play with greater resistance and less flexibility. The resulting airstream feels smaller and denser.
- The Rovner Eddie Daniels (i.e., Versa) seems to "control" reeds in a way that is helpful when playing a reed that is too flexible. It too produces a more focused/dense sound.
- The original Harrison seems allows the reed to vibrate more freely than my other ligatures and seems to have the least (negative) impact on the reed's performance. When I want to know a reed's real character, I find this ligature better reveals its true characteristics.
- The Rovner Light is similar to the original Harrison in that it allows the reed to vibrate well.
- The Rovner Dark does feel like it suppresses a reed's higher partials. While this produces a darker(?) tone, it also makes the reed feel more resistant and a bit less flexible/vibrant.
- The Rovner Mark III feels like a cross between the Light/Dark. While it does seem to "de-emphasize" higher partials, it does not restrict the reed's vibration/flexibility as much as the Dark.
- The Rico H ligature seems to allow a reed to play with good vibrancy and flexibility and seems to "smooth-out" harshness in the sound without seeming to suppress partials too much. For me, the Silver causes reeds to play with a "darker" sound than the Gold, though they play a bit more freely with the Gold. Interestingly, the original Harrison (on which the Rico is based) seems to allow the reed greater freedom/flexibility than the Rico H, which seeks to make the reed play with bit darker sound.
- German string ligatures are perhaps the most neutral, adapting well to the reed without altering its performance characteristics much.
Whether this is all in my head or not, I currently carry Harrision, Rico H Gold, Rovner Mark III and German string ligatures, and use whatever feels/plays best with the right reed.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-23 21:14
Just to put a fine point on the matter. We as "specialists" in the field of clarinet come to a place such as this forum for advice, help or to impart some specialized knowledge on specific aspects of what we do. It does not seem right to me for those who don't have any interest in that aspect to then turn it into a bashing session.
Someone will eventually want to talk about the Buffet Devine key work, or the Hartmann Fiberreeds compared to Legere or cane. Would those of us who don't have the funds or desire to try these products just feel free to make fun of them?
I only wish to keep our discussions mostly civil, objective, and most of all helpful (whether we know what we are talking about or not). Maybe more people will be likely to participate that way.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-23 23:08
I'm a bit touchy on this topic for only one reason. With all the variables in clarinet play (just in the equipment, not even counting technique), I yearn to settle at least some of them and put them away, not to be reopened. I've done that to my satisfaction with the clarinet itself. And after what I think was a lot of wasted $, time, and energy, I've also done that with ligature. I strive to do it with reeds, without doubt the most important, unstable, and fickle item in the list. Mouthpiece is probably hopeless (there's always a better one) but I think I'm stable there for the present.
So... like any religious or political zealot, I shout and cheer when I hear something that confirms my previous position (in this case, "Nothing enough better than Rovner ligature out there to be worth investigating."). And I boo, hiss, or at least feel uncomfortable to hear anything to the contrary. Anybody who thinks they don't think this way about SOMETHING is deluding themselves.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-23 23:09)
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2014-04-23 23:19
I've got a Versa. Every time I change an aspect of my playing I swap the configuration around so I sound more like myself LOL............ Think that might be defeating the object
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2014-04-23 23:20
I've got a Versa. Every time I change an aspect of my playing I swap the configuration around so I sound more like myself LOL............ Think that might be defeating the object :-)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-24 01:22
Dear Stan,
It is perfectly understandable to want 'certainty.' In fact, nothing could be better than settling on a set-up and sticking with it through thick and thin. It is also the BEST way to develop consistent playing characteristics (eliminate the variables !!!!).
As professionals though we NEVER stop growing, improving, striving to do it even better next time. The best way is to improve our musical understanding through analysis, listening, and an honest appraisal of how we are currently playing. Just keeping an open mind can be one of our best tools.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2014-04-24 02:22
really in matters of the Ligature and every other part of the Clarinet...let your ears be the guide.
I am currently using a standard double screw metal model and it sounds pretty nice.... that said I have ordered a Rovner light model as I find the screwing off and on to be very tedious
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-04-24 11:58
I think I posted this before but here it is again.
Basically any ligature can be good and honestly I agree that it's not so important, but I've had a situation where a ligature made a big difference... to the worse.
Years ago, for about a month, I had some problems. It felt like I just need to practice more, or the reeds I get are not good. Just more resistance than I'm used to for many years before. I tried different reeds, practiced, etc. but I couldn't find anythingthat helped. When listening, no one could hear a real problem, but I had to try harder when I played.
One day I was at a rehearsal with an alto sax player and for no reason at all we switched ligatures, just to try them. I couldn't believe what happened. The problem was completely gone. Not only that, but the others in the room immediately heard the huge difference... and not just woodwind players. I tried my ligature again and the problem was back.
When I got home I tried all my other ligatures. Every single one of them was fine. It was just the ligature I was playing for a while, which I never suspected could cause a problem, that actually caused the problem. There doubt I would miss it when I first tried it, so I'm guessing something happened to it, making it hold the reed in a distorted way.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-24 18:01
Ben..I love where your going on sound being the test for ligature efficacy, with the following caveats:
The ligature meets tests of basic compentancy, allows the player freedom of play, and that it is other trained ears, not only those of the player, who judge in repeatedly testing, ideally blindly, sound.
Throw in that marginal improvement in play should accompany marginal "improvements" in cost, and you have my vote.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-04-24 18:07
Years back I recorded with all my ligatures. Upon listening back I found no problem in picking out what I preferred listening to. That was my experience.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-04-24 18:50
I do think ligatures matter and I have different preferences on Bb and Bass, and according to the material I play. Ligature selection, for me, comes after Mpc (first), then reed selection (brand then specific reed) then barrel (rotating to find the sweet spot).
On the Bass, I currently favor the Rovner Star (with the weights added) for general playing, but find reed and ligature vertical placement makes subtle, but useful playing changes. On a piece that spent time jumping between clarion and high altissimo, a stock (cheap) 2-screw Yamaha metal gave me more reliable transitions (before the Rovner). The fixed dimension solid rings gave me no control over where and how the reed was held and performed poorly at the high end. I haven't tried the Optimum on Bass.
For Bb, I favor the Optimum for its 3 interchangeable plates that I can change if I have a particular need or problem. The horizontal bar plate with the ligature higher on the Mpc seems to improve my high altissimo, while moving that ligature lower often makes a big improvement for throat-tone A and Bb.
In most cases, I am interested in the extremes of the playing range, consistency/predictability of tone over the entire playing range, and best articulation, and I select and adjust what I have accordingly.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-24 19:08
Here is my current litmus test on ligature madness.
http://shop.weinermusic.com/SILVERSTEIN-CLARINET-LIGATURE/productinfo/LS1201/
This is not a dig against Weiner Music. They carry products people buy. They don't make claims as to a products specific applicability to a particular musician.
$140
Lets take a look:
http://www.silversteinworks.com/index.php
Click three screens to the right.
They've done tests...made charts. But they won't share much about them.
They ask if I think their claims are marketing jargon? No. I suspect they're marketing hype. But I'm open minded. Show me the science. I can't find the very chart in this picture anywhere on the website to even make claims as to its validity.
But all's not lost. They say innovation (not data), is coming. Why at this price isn't it already here?
So I look at the brochure. It shows me some chart and says I should refer to the website. Isn't that just where I came from seeking more information?
It gets better. Dip this ligature in water and it helps keep your reeds moist. (I'm not making this up.)
Okay? So the ligature's chord, presumably prewetted, comes in contact with the reed's top base, (like ligatures do) itself mostly impervious to water....how does that water transfer work?
The ligature thus, as a result, helps with reed warpage too they claim.
Wait, the chord on the ligature landed the mars rover? (I'm not making this up.)
I can apply for a trial?
4 pretty (excuse me, luxurious) colors. Wow-that ought to help with ease of play and sound reproduction about as much as engraving.
I can't buy this chord seperately? I can't use a child's pony tail instead, which may not be as good as this chord, but for $140 I could buy enough pony tails for every person with long hair in my community?
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-04-24 20:14
It's frustrating that this "debate" never gets closer to resolution. In 100 years, this BB will probably still contain strong assertions that different ligatures do or do not make a noticeable difference. But it can't be hard to settle this objectively, in the following blind trial steps:
(1) Take 2 ligatures that you feel are clearly different
(2) Give them to a friend, with your reed and instrument. The friend should be sufficiently expert to set up a reed precisely and consistently, but without having a personal prejudice regarding the ligatures. A Sax player would be ideal.
(3) Put on a blindfold
(4) Have your friend put on the reed using a randomly-chosen ligature
(5) Play without touching the ligature and guess which it is
Steps 4/5 should be repeated about 20 times; if you guess right 15 times or more, I'd accept that as reasonable statistical evidence that there is some detectable effect. If anyone was willing to try this, I'd be fascinated to hear the results.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-24 20:55
Minor tweaking aside, I'm with you Mr. Peacock. Note how high end ligature manufacturers make claims, but don't do, or at least disclose this.
If the marginal difference in detectable effect matches the marginal difference in price (something albeit we all value differently)...run, don't walk, to the music store and buy that more expensive ligature.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-04-24 21:03
Many aspects of clarinet playing and the sound produced involve variables that are either not recognized or that cannot be quantified adequately.....if at all.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Sxplyer81
Date: 2014-04-24 21:15
Hey ThatPerfectReed,
Why dont you try it out before you decide its all a hype. I dislike it when people dont take the time to actually try it out before making judgement calls about how bad products are.
I was skeptical at first as well, but I actually took the time out to give it a try. And to my surprise, as well as many of my friends, the Silverstein Ligature is definitely not a hype. Regardless of whether its true or not, at least take the time out to try it out for yourself before throwing out negative comments on it. If you made those claims after giving them a try, your findings and comments would be on solid grounds.
Just a thought.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-24 22:10
Wow Sxplyer91 from Hackensack, NY. Is that the same Hackensack that Silverstein works is located in?
Imagine the odds.
Why don't I try it first? Fair question. Why don't you, err, I mean Silverstein publish scientific literature for us to reed (pun intended) first? Why doesn't Silverstein spot me the $140 to buy it?
I'm throwing out negative comments? Really--that a wet ligature has a hard time wetting a reed when it solely interfaces with its in large part water impervious top base? And that if it can't wet the reed much, it probably isn't going to have much bearing from a moisture standpoint on preventing warpage. Or that colors, even luxurious ones dont' affect performance? Or that simply because the cord used had space exploration applications doesn't make it perfect for mouthpieces, anymore than applying liquid oxygen, essential for human missions, wouldn't crack most mouthpieces if you applied that coldness to them?
Thank you Sxplyer81. You have done precisely what I claim high end ligature manufactures do. They take the "you should try (which rhymes with buy) before you comment," approach rather than say, "here is the data you asked for sir."
Noted--they warranty their product. But reimburse you for its return if its not all its dreamed to be....is that available too?
Here's my challenge. I will pay up to $50 of my own in shipping the product to me, and everyone on this board who wants to try it before that $50 is depleted--and that's without the science they claim they have.
Silverstein's move. Maybe you know some people there who will guarantee that my application for trial will be accepted, and that responsibilty for product return lies on the last person on the bboard who has it.
I absolutely promise I will be fair, ask others to be as well, and eat my hat it's worth the $100 additional cost above other good ligatures.
If Silverstein accepts this trial, bboard members, I ask you, with the moderators' okays, if you would sign up. I can Paypal documentable shipping costs to every member, up to my $50 limit, and you only need to disclose your contact information to the previous person (and I trust in confidence) in line who has it before you.
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Author: Sxplyer81
Date: 2014-04-24 22:22
ThatPerfectReed, all I said was to try it before saying anything negative. I made an objective statement which I am sure many can agree with. Whether I am from Silverstein Works or not, which I am not, shouldnt matter? Did I attack you or defend the product? All I said was try it, thats all. I truly dont care if you think im from Silverstein or not. Really doesnt matter, does it?
As for the trial application, sorry I cant help you with that. You need to apply for that on your own. Since I do not work there, I can not help you out with the process. I am sure you can and will find a way to try the ligature if you really wanted to. They do have them available in locations around the US.
Either way, take my thoughts and message for what it is.... a suggestion to try before putting down a product, not just Silverstein Ligatures, but any product.
I truly hope you get to try the Silverstein Ligature. If and when that happens, Id like to hear what your thoughts are.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-04-24 22:46
ThatPerfectReed wrote:
> Wow Sxplyer91 from Hackensack, NY. Is that the same Hackensack
> that Silverstein works is located in?
>
> Imagine the odds.
Yes, imagine. 43,000 people. Some clarinet players. Maybe one who actually tried what you casually dismiss because it was local.
Wait. Florida. Only a couple hundred miles from Jacksonville and Buffet? What would be the chances?
I don't want YOU to accuse (implicitly or explicitly) someone of being employed by a manufacturer of accessories or clarinets or other associated equipment being discussed here - if you have evidence, bring it to my attention. It's happened before (as a few of our regulars know) and it's taken care of.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-25 00:24
The odds that Sxplyer91, communicating from Hackensack NJ bears no connection to Silverstein, and immediately comments on a post, the first 2 times EVER under this bboard under that moniker, although plausible, are mind blowing staggering to say the least.
Nevertheless, I apologize for the insinuation otherwise. I agree, it would be a long stretch to accuse someone if they simply resided in the same State; especially with NJ and FL being the 1st and 8th most populous by square mile.
Now--let's get back to the real issue at hand. What negative comments did I make? Silverstein made comments on their website about tests I'd love to see, water penetration (and as a result warpage prevention) I don't see the chord, affixed to a largely water impenetrateable barrier, even if soaking wet, doing--any more than if it can would I suspect sticking wet paper towel under your ligature being any less effective if they were on to something. I'd like to hear how the chord help land a mars rover is relevant.
I am all about reserving judgment. But the notion that every product needs to be personally tested before claims that contradict science can be made are impractacle at the least. We rely on companies, at least in the States, like Underwriter's Laboratories (UL) and Consumer Reports to comment on safety, quality and value in part because we don't have the money to buy, or testing facilities to test all things on our own.
In order for me to test the Silverstein ligature for free I'd have to, according to their website be a Pro, (I'm not) "like" them on Facebook first (I have to preendorse them??) and meet their undisclosed preapproval requirements. If I buy it, can I return it?
So, instead I should believe that their ligature is amazing, but every professional isn't flocking to it? If it did all that was claimed, professionals would gobble them up I suspect, use them, and the company couldn't keep them on the shelves.
Sxplyer81: raises for me a good point. I need to copy this thread to Silverstein, in case they are unaware of it, and in fairness, give them opportunity to explain that they don't on their website.
Done...just now.
Let me tell where I think I've been unfair. There are probably other ligature manufacturers out there charging lots, and making claims that didn't get singled out here, and that's unfair to Silverstein.
Post Edited (2014-04-25 00:29)
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-04-25 01:10
Leather ligatures seem to dampen vibations and create a softer feel than metallic ones. Not sure if that feeling reaches the listener. Should be easy to make a blind test, make recordings with different ligatures, replay them randomly and then rank them.
Post Edited (2014-04-25 01:10)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-25 01:32
I would genuinely and humble like a critique of this test, aside than it's a test of 1.
I took an ordinary Bb clarinet reed, never played, never wet, and covered every area of it with Scotch Brand clear packing tape except its base on top, and the sides of that base. I then submerged it under water for an hour with a weighted object.
I did cover the bottom of the reed (read: that little surface area closest to the floor when you're playing a reed). In fairness, ligatures don't interface with the reed down there.
When I took it out of its bath and removed the tape, some water, not a lot had penetrated the reed's table, presumably via the base's sides. Getting the reed's vamp to burn by placing it near a match would have been trivial. Now remember, I put the sides of the base in complete contact with water. A string ligature like Silverstein's, in fairness, probably doesn't even directly touch this side portion of the reed, anymore than if it does, it's probably for far less 50% of its area.
Now, in fairness, playing a reed obviously makes its tip moist unlike my Scotch brand tape. But this same moistness effect occurs with any ligature.
It's been reported that a famous clarinet player, when once asked his opinion on ligatures said he thought they were a good idea, because at best, holding the reed on with his right hand only allowed him to play notes playable with his left.
Post Edited (2014-04-25 02:07)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-25 02:25
I wonder how many other clarinetists have experienced what I described in my 4/23 post above, and don't even know it... that within a large range of clarinet variables, ANY... ANY... ANY CHANGE may have a short term benefit that can fool you into crediting whatever you changed. "This is the best reed/ligature/mouthpiece/clarinet/corkgrease/haircream I've ever used. I'm going to use this forever, and hype it to all my clarinet friends." Then when the benefit fades, we blame something else, because of course, we experienced the glory of the new item personally.
This happened so many times to me, that even though I didn't want to accept that I'd been fooled and fooled and fooled again- I had no other choice. And maybe it really is just me, but I doubt it.
Is there a name for this phenomenon? How do survey / product test / QA etc professionals account for it?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-04-25 02:51
Johan:
> Should be easy to make a blind test, make recordings
> with different ligatures, replay them randomly and then rank them.
I disagree: if you know which ligature you're using, you may subconsciously play differently. A blind test is only valid if you lack all such information. But then, certainly, you can rank both by how things feel when playing and on how a recording sounds. Which would you consider more important?
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-04-25 03:08
John,
True. I might also remember that when I played *this* ligature I made *that* error.
One way is to have someone else do the ranking.
I doubt a ligature that feels better will sound worse. The only question is if the ligature affects the sound at all, or if the difference can only be felt by the player.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-04-25 04:09
It seems absolutely bizarre to me that "hard rubber vs wood" was brought up.
"Would you find it funny if...."
I made no comment on the video. Why did hard rubber come up?
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-25 20:10
My take;
1. I can hear the "as advertised" differences in the 3 plates of my newish VD Optimum.
2. My old gold-colored Harrison ligature is better for the altissimo than my Rovner Light, and perhaps even my Optimum as well.
3. My Rovner Light, played as loose as possible, has the biggest sound over the 2 lower registers. My other Rovners, into one of which I glued a lengthwise channel-shaped piece of cork, make the clarinet a little stuffy, although the one with the homemade cork pressure plate produces a more beautiful timbre.
4. B. DeFranco introduced me to the $8.00 Luyben, which seems to have the most even volume and timbre across the registers and doesn't require extra effort anywhere, if you get my meaning.
5. I play the Rovner light more than the others because of the sound it produces.
6. My old Buffet 2-screw ligature produces a surprisingly even timbre across the horn. I never use it because it is ever-so-slightly stuffy compared to the others mentioned above. I noticed that somewhere along the line, Goodman (and Shaw, I think) inverted their two-screw metal ligatures. There had to be a reason, right?
I refer above, to MY ears. I have no idea whether the differences would be heard by a listener out front, so to speak.
bruno>
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-04-25 23:50
I use Rovner ligatures on all my Clarinets because they are very convenient and easy to put on and they look good.
BJV
"The Kazoo is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-04-26 00:26)
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Author: earspasm
Date: 2014-04-26 01:39
I'm so glad I made that video. I appreciate the debate, though I agree that I made it more to stir the soup than to resolve any questions.
How many of you who are teachers have students who spend money (probably unnecessarily) on a piece of gear, simply because they're looking for a "magic bullet?" I know I do. I also remember doing it myself when I was coming up.
I'm all about experimentation. I believe there are differences that are both objective and subjective with any piece of gear. That said, I also believe that there are elements that give a student much bigger "bang for their buck" (a mouthpiece, a reed choice) than others (a bespoke barrel or bell, or ligature).
To be clear, I don't begrudge people trying to make a living creating and marketing their products. I just want to provide a little perspective for my (mostly young) YouTube audience.
Mike
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-26 21:03
I strive for fairness and objectivity.
Accordingly it seems only fair that I advise readers of the following:
I received, and was given full written permission by a Director at Silverstein Works to pass on to you his email response to me, to the dialogue on the bboard about the aforementioned ligature. Given that his response was long (but not long-winded: it was all on point and didn’t veer off into tangents) and that my direct publication of it would not only occupy large amounts of bboard space, but require prior moderator approval as well, I will summarize.
I will not be perfect, much that I will strive to come as close as I can. And I acknowledge that bias may enter into the topics I choose to highlight from that email, how I summarize them, and my own notions on ligatures.
Silverstein recognized their right to use the bboard directly but chose to stick to email response. I would ask you to consider that on the one hand, my issues weren’t ignored and that many other companies act in similar fashion with regards to the bboard, but that on the other hand some companies do actively participate in discussions here and deserve credit for doing so.
• Silverstein was very professional in their response, and offered me opportunity to try the ligature for free. Although in my opinion not clearly apparent from their website, Silverstein elaborated in the email that their application to try one of their ligatures was more about screening out non-serious players both for their potential inability to discern their product’s differences, and inability/unwillingness to purchase said product even such preferential differences were identified. In my opinion I think this is fair. Fairness also mandates that I openly admit to having turned down their offer, on grounds of morality, because I don’t see myself buying the product based upon my own personal perceptions as to the level of my clarinet play, and perceived value of using the money on other things. “Your mileage might vary” here.
• Silverstein was the first to admit that a ligature’s value was in its play and sound. It explained how its use of the same cord as NASA ties into (pun not intended) its lifetime guarantee and precision of the cord with respect to its resistance to stretch and its durability. It also cited how few players who’ve purchased the product have returned it, how they work closely with all their customers, and how those who did return it were refunded without issue.
• Silverstein recognized that they are a high priced competitor in the market space. They cited the product’s value, research costs to develop it, and hand creation of each ligature as part of the explanation behind that cost.
• Silverstein claims no known affiliation with the poster in this thread above, no paid endorsers, and that their research came gratis, from artists who’ve used their product. Access to such results was available on request, as was basic contact information of the tester, and that greater accessibility to such results by consumers on Silverstein's part might be indicated.
• Silverstein claims a wet reed has been shown in in-house testing to remain wetter long, when its presoaked ligature is used to adhere it to the mouthpiece.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-26 21:52
Wow, Russ- what a can of worms. Nice job passing on the details. And there just might be a player or 20 (including some who don't and will never know) for whom that ligature would really be the best $140 they ever spent. Such is the nature of clarinet play. Only the independently wealthy can afford to try everything, and I bet even they cannot afford the TIME to really evaluate.
Let me return for a moment to my 4/23 and 4/25 posts about how ANY CHANGE would often, for me, improve my play briefly, then the benefit would fade away no matter how religiously I adhered to the change.
This effect, whatever you want to call it, happened to me most memorably with ligature changes and with reed treatment changes, during my Legere-only days. Let me give you an example. I was in one of my funk periods where I had several Legere reeds that were playing passably at best, usable but far from ideal... plus a closetful (perhaps 15) of older ones that seemed beyond hope. I think that was also during the time I was struggling with stability in upper clarion... A5-B5 ![[A5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a5.gif) ![[B5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b5.gif) . I read about the Bois ligature and since it wasn't terribly expensive, thought I'd give it a shot. Man oh man, it was WONDERFUL. I was all over all registers, stable and clean. Really, if I could have kept playing that way, I would have been off to the races performance wise. I even posted about my experence here on BBoard, and credited it to the Bois. (That post is still in the archives but I edited it later.) Then the good play faded, reed by reed. That is, on each reed the new ligature would play nicely for a while (30 min?), then the reed would return to previous unplayability. Once I'd done this with 4 or 5 reeds, I was back where I started. Really I was worse off, because the Bois is harder to use with slippery Legeres, they won't hold their position. So I put it away and was back to the old drawing board.
But, since I'd found that ligatures seemed to markedly affect play- I kept at it with many others... strings, Optimum, my own modifications, etc etc. And I would often hit on a temporary (how temp did vary) benefit. BUT IT ALWAYS FADED. I began to suspect (and now I think I'm convinced) that all that was happening was... My reeds were vibrating in a particular manner with my original setup. And they had all gotten "tired" of it, which degraded their play. Then I swapped ligatures. I think that caused a tiny shift in what portion of the reeds were being exercised for each note. And some of the previously unexercised portion was still "fresh", so to speak, and for a time the reed behaved as new. But since the bulk of the reed was still worn out, the fresh part could only help for a short time until it too was kaput.
Then I thought, OK I will alternate between 2 or 3 ligatures to keep reviving the reed. Chasing the wind, wasted me a whole lot of time and energy.
Later I began experimenting with hot water dips. Again I got brief revivals of super play. I found in the long term that a given reed would degrade in how much and how long a dip would help. And that's how I spent a year or 2 in a futile attempt to create a sustainable and affordable nice playing Legere routine. And who knows, maybe I was 1 experiment away from cracking it, but at some point you have to punt the ball.
Even if I'm correct with my "localized tired plastic" theory for the Legeres, I have no idea whether cane reeds do the same thing. Or other synthetics. I'm already almost 61, and even if I've got lots of playing time left, I'm not willing to spend much more of it on such issues.
And perhaps some of my experiences had nothing to do with the usual experimenter's bias (since they were actual changes to playability).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-26 21:56)
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2014-04-26 22:21
Over the years, I have managed to collect ten ligatures originally crafted by Frank L. Kaspar . They all play slightly differently to me! I even have several modern Scott-Kaspar ligatures and these are also excellent, but not quite as excellent for me as the original ones, even though he used the original Kaspar metal for them! Probably these differences are not noticed by others , just myself!
Post Edited (2014-04-26 22:23)
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-04-28 20:22
On the subject of fading in the high altissimo, Gonzales GD seem not to fade much if at all. I have played 2-3 hrs and still had the same range and ease of attack as when I started.
Moreover, on other reeds when I go for C7, I have to move my lower lip/teeth a bit lower toward the ligature, but less so for the GD.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-05-09 18:32
Here's my take.
There's a fundamental difference between being an artist, and being "an artist for, and who otherwise uses the tools of an art tools making company" like Mr. Lowenstern and Vandoren respectively. The former (the artist) is free to create, the second (hereafter Compensated Artist, or CA) is bound by an incentivized arrangement, be it in free or reduced cost products, artistic exposure, or outright compensation and other perks of such an agreement. Most artists don't talk about what they get being a company spokesperson, and I suspect it has something to do with the very nature of their contract's secrecy clauses, despite it being precisely what the consumer should know (and want to know) before they take somebody's word.
There are also artists who give rave reviews to products without endorsement, but they are a hand full and play on the products of a hand full of vendors.
CAs vary in their willingness to use their name, and risk its brand dilution in doing so. Some endorse a product you'd never or rarely find them using, others will only endorse stuff they'd choose to play on were no endorsement deal in place.
If one looks at the video Mr. Nilsson refers to above--and this is NOTHING for or against Mr. Nilsson, I'm glad he raised this--only a small, but nonetheless significant portion of the video, beginning around 5:39 into the piece talks of ligatures. In it, I get the impression that Mr. Lowenstern has, to be metaphorical, "towed the [Vandoren] company line," even if at the end of that line there's a sign that reads "but don't waste your time on expensive ligatures."
That's just my impression. Mr. Lowenstern reads and writes here and can comment if he chooses, as of course can you.
More importantly, here's where I derive that impression. First, Mr. Lowenstern cites his previous desire for leather ligatures based not only on nothing to do with music, but a problem that, for the few of us who have it, is easily remedied with more cautious care: stepping on one's ligature. Really? Notice how it's also not likely the first take on this segment, having just switched off of the topic of his new Vandoren mouthpiece. Notice how all of sudden he's broken that stepping habit now that he has the new Vandoren metal ligature. It's a miracle! Do YOU leave ligatures lying around on the floor to accidently step on? Is there a PayPal charity I can donate to on this cause?
Maybe I can license new technology from the geriatric in home emergency care market, that auto-activates the pendant of a fallen user based on mercury switch/micro gyroscope technology.
"Hello, Mr. Smith, yes, we've detected that a ligature has fallen at your residence. Would you like us to call the police?"
==============
For those of us trained in, or that buy into micro expressions, at 6:02, as Mr. Lowenstern recalls the auditory memory of his new bright sounding ligature, he should be looking to his left, NOT left and up. The former is consistent with auditory memory, and the latter with visual memory.
And if you buy none of that, consider this. I don't want to lean on every word Mr. Lowenstern says, but when he has what I must presume is several takes to get it right, and uses two ways to describe something that contrast each other: "considerable" and "very fine pointed"--I take notice.
"Considerable," in language is more than about "worthy of consideration," which is subjective. It implies, if not defines a difference that's notably large in size, which by definition is the opposite of "very fine pointed."
Do I think Mr. Lowenstern is lying per se? No. I think he's found a setup that works well for him and whose ligature provides differences in his head, and maybe in actuality that goes just beyond being imperceptible, and a way of saying so that doesn't overly contradict his original premise: [kids] don't waste your money on ligatures. I don't think he'd disagree with the sentiments that "your mileage might vary here," even though he's having success with the setup he discusses in this video.
As for nearly all of the rest of us, myself included: this the harsh truth that I just know people will love to differ with me on: ready? Get into the practice room, slow down the metronome, work on your embouchure and fingers, and speed the metronome up slightly over time with proficiency. Repeat for another 100 hours. Get off the internet looking for toys to improve your play.
Only then, come to the table with ligature, mouthpiece, and horn change suggestions; particularly the latter two. And I don't mean to imply that hardware changes and good hardware can't make enormous difference, or that I don't love to tinker just as much as the next person. I do mean to imply that as clarinetists we all deal with inferior equipment now and then: most notably with that "vibrating stick on our mouthpiece."
The two quotes most attributable to the noted clarinet Pedagogue, Kal Opperman where
"Practice and hope, but never hope more than you practice."
"There's no substitute for hard work, and remember that time is your most precious commodity."
Consider that as it regards ligatures.
========
And also take a look at this:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=ligature&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=clarinet&FIELD2=&d=PTXT
Read what these inventors write about how their ligatures work, more than what they do, or the reasons they were designed the way they were. For those that make claims (granted, its the design not the claim of fitness that is patentable, and therefore the latter is often left out), how many hold true?
Do you think if anyone nailed the ligature so spot on, to date, that there would be so many varieties? (This is where the "importance of custom fit people" chime in. And that's fine, as long as they also conceede that vendors also take advantage of this very lack of definitiveness in ligatures to produce new ligature products for us to buy, without comensurate evidence that the new one is anything other than different (not better) than the old one.) Do you think the "V" cut out of the sides of metal Vandoren ligatures was a cooincidence of engineering, rather than branding that hopefully didn't compromise quality?
And to the "if you think you play better then you do" camp, Woodstock is calling, on their rotary phone. While this year's Clarinet Conference's theme is about how to make a living playing the clarinet. Through no doing of my own, the clarinet world's seem to become far more pragmatic.
=======
Disclaimer: 1) I am in the process of trying to get a ligature before the Patent Board. I will never make a claim about its superiority unless backed by clinical science. My focus of attention will be on its ease of use: a claim, I believe, that will hold true, as sure as many will both agree and disagree with if it ever comes to market.
And no, it's not a variation of this http://www.homeconstructionimprovement.com/black-decker-automatic-adjustable/ which I've discussed in the past, although that auto-tightening would be cool.
2) I choose to play Vandoren mouthpieces and reeds. I think they make great products, even ligatures--even though I haven't been convinced those ligatures are demonstrably better than other competant ones.
3) Ligatures do matter to the point that they fill basic criterion as discussed way above in this thread.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-09 22:22
Your disclaimer should be:
"I prefer one version of Mr. Lowenstern's truth over another based on my own prejudices."
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-05-10 01:17
What are my prejudices as you see them? Please don't make ambiguous accusations, let alone tell me what to say.
What is the science you plan to bring forth to demonstrate that the prejudices you claim I have are contradicted by fact?
What are your predudices here--and we all have them? Is one foolish pride that says if you (or others here) spend $80 on a ligature, that, gosh darnit, it's going to deliver you $80 worth of reed holding capability?
There is no versioning of the truth. I think that truth lies somewhere between these two videos of Mr. Lowenstern's. On the one hand, not everything he used for a ligature in the first video might facilitate mouthpiece change, or accept a mouthpiece cap, or be durable. On the other hand, I don't buy into a "considerable" and "very fine point change" concurrently. Do you?
I guess it's easier to attack the messenger when you can't attack the message. You've read some of the patents like I asked first, correct?
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-05-10 02:54
No big deal with telling slightly different stories with the Vandoren hat on and off respectively. I thought it was a little funny, though, so therefore I linked.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-10 04:06
A "prejudice" is a preconceived idea.
Making excuses for one argument over another qualifies in my book.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-05-10 06:18
I don't need a definition of what prejudice is but examples of where I have its preconceived opinions, as I've requested, "not based on reason or actual experience." I'm not the only one who finds ligatures not nearly as important as their price differential might suggest they are. Are we all prejudiced?
What excuses am I making for one argument over another? I've pointed out flaws in both of Lowenstern's videos, citing that while I think his original video that suggests that the ligature doesn't matter as much as people might think or hope doesn't mean that everything he used as a ligature was ideal. I also cited flaws I saw in the second video. I've cited evidence that if there were a holy grail in ligatures we wouldn't see so many varieties, or star players working with "ordinary" ligatures.
There's a simple way to prove that my notions are preconceived. Bring forth scientific testing of ligatures showing uniformity and reproducibility of results. Until such time I'll stand by opinions based on reason and experience: both mine and that of others more experienced than me. That's fair.
People should buy whatever they want. But one person's improvement in play is, even assuming it's real and not perceived, anecdoctal at best. In the meantime, show me a ligature manufacturer that has real data that shows their ligature better, but for some reason chooses not to publish it.
Show of hands, how many people had teachers who said to you, "play this ligature or go take lessons from someone else?"
Yeah, me neither.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-10 08:18
Yes, this would be a good time to post a video (unlike the one that kicked off this thread which was meant to both a farce and demeaning) that is actually informative on many levels.
Ricardo Morales and what he carries in his clarinet case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq9nuIZo_wE
note 2:24 through 3:36
How many major symphony auditions has our friend Mr. Lowenstern won?
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-05-10 11:03
Ed wrote:
"As much as I respect Mike Lowenstern, I don't think the video really demonstrated anything. In either case, both videos seemed to have a preconceived notion and then designed the argument or test to prove point".
Im not sure what to make of this statement. Tom made a video based on his decades of experience as a professional clarinetist, artist repair tech, clarinet designer for a major French maker, and simply as a musician. Hes worked with many of the finest clarinetists in the world, particularly in regards to their equipment, including the above mentioned Ricardo Morales who won his first major symphony positions playing on clarinets designed by and prepared for him by Tom. The video is the opinion hes formed over those many decades of experience. I don't understand how any rational person could call what Tom presented a "preconceived notion"?
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2014-05-10 12:03)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-10 17:24
we all just need to CALM DOWN !!!!!!!
Someone posted a video that was an intentional farce. The video was making fun of those who think they hear/experience something vs. those who don't.
That person also happened to be in a product endorsement video for Vandoren.
That's funny.
I think we should leave it at that.
Yes, that's just my opinion.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-05-10 23:41
I'm of the opinion that it's you Paul who needs to "calm down."
You were bothered by Lowenstern's first video, which is your right, even though I suspect your feelings were misguided. I saw Lowenstern taking more of a crack at ligature manufacturers, and, as he's indicated, sending a message to his students that things like ligatures aren't high on the list of things they need to work on or worry about.
That original video was a lot of things, none of which an intentional farce. Rather than debate ideas, you sought to label me as prejudice, and when asked to furnish science to substantiate that, provided a snippet of 1 story of one clarinet player (Morales), who himself felt need to explain why he isn't nuts for carrying so many ligatures. How many of those did he get for free: better, got paid for using? Even he can't settle on a ligature. Do you think the rest of us, who likely play inferior to him, and pay out of pocket for our ligatures should be working at his levels of granularity, playing "musical piece specific ligatures"?
And of course that "story of one is justified" because, as you point out, its speaker is a principal in a major symphony, while the guy in the original video, despite playing not only a different instrument, but working inside of a much larger artistic genre is not? I don't buy that, but if you do, how would you explain all the other lead principles who don't switch ligatures so frequently? If Mr. Morales was on to something reproducible, do you think other noted players wouldn't follow suit? Do you think if the Silverstein ligature cited above wasn't worth every penny of its price that people on the clarinet board wouldn't say so?
Funny, that same case of Mr. Morales' had plenty of cane reeds in it. Do you think he's rid his case of all of them since becoming a Legere artist?
I find it much more questionable that Mr. Lowenstern, now a Vandoren artist, concurrently cures his ligature smushing problem and finds "considerable" yet "very fine pointed differences" at the same time, on the same ligature. That's not funny, as you say, but concerning. It makes me wonder how much any of us should take seriously a vendor compensated artist's claims. Wouldn't a truly great product sell itself in this business from word of mouth alone (I'm glad to furnish examples)? Shouldn't I be concerned, if I truly am interested in the future of clarineting that people may be overpaying for items that not even the vendor itself makes claims as to suitability on, let alone backs up such claims with data?
That you sir find advantages in your ligature choices is great. But don't be so quick to call others names and cite the need for others to calm down from your own inability to seperate the discussion of facts from personal attacks.
Despite clearly being in the camp that says that people give too much creedence to ligatures, when I summarized Silverstein's email to me, did you see them chime in with corrections (was I not fair)? Do you think they didn't read it?
Do you see me unwilling to being open to objective data showing one vendor's "reed clamp" better than another's or instead requesting it, willing to accept it with open arms and mind for review, and not getting it--not one shred of it?
Post Edited (2014-05-10 23:44)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-05-10 23:50
ThatPerfectReed wrote:
> I'm of the opinion that it's you Paul who needs to "calm down."
jm&j ...
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Author: earspasm
Date: 2014-06-15 06:28
Hey guys. Just saw all this here and I want to be clear about a few things. There is so much guessing, assumption, and, frankly armchair quarterbackery, that I need to interject a few facts.
Full disclosure: Yes, I am a Vandoren artist and have been for about 5 years. But I have played Vandoren reeds my entire 35-year playing life. Now I am in an arrangement with them. Does that mean that I sometimes get free stuff? Sure, yes it does. Would I use said stuff if it weren't free? In most cases, yes. In some no.
The biggest example: I not only use their B50 mouthpiece, it changed my opinion of "stock" mouthpieces forever. I have about 15 Selmer C* mouthpieces that were refaced by Everett Matson from the 1980s' through the late 1990s. I amassed them because I never wanted to be without one of those mouthpieces and I wanted a crap-ton of insurance that I would have one the rest of my life.
And then David Gould nagged me to try the B50 and I was amazed. Hooked. And now I recommend every student try one to see if it's right for them. Would I do that if I wasn't a Vandoren artist? You bet. It's that good.
Would I use their reeds if they weren't free? Yes.
Would I use a ligature of theirs if it wasn't free? That's debatable.
Do I use their bass clarinet/sax strap? Sometimes, though it's a bit too bulky for me. Do I recommend it? Yes, but I think it's kind of expensive.
Do I use their reed resurfacing stick thingy? Not often.
Oh, and for those curious, I did that Vandoren video in one take. They edited a bunch out, because I tend to ramble, as I'm doing here.
So, why do I make these snarky videos? Because I have an audience of 13-18 year olds (my largest audience segment according to Google Analytics) who are all just starting out on the instrument. They, and their parents, don't have a lot of money to spare. So I try to make videos that lay out my opinion that PRACTICING (hence all of the Rose Etude videos) and not GEAR (hence the "Gear Wars" videos of which the Ligature video was one) makes the difference.
Spending money unnecessarily is what I'm against. Not ligatures. And certainly not innovation from companies big and small who are trying to make the clarinet world better.
Other than that, I have no horse in this race. I'm not trying to sell anything for myself, Vandoren or anyone else. I'm not *NOT* trying to sell anything either.
Any other questions about my loyalties, my integrity, or anything else, hit me up. I love a good discussion.
Mike Lowenstern
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-06-15 08:31
An off-topic question; do you think that companies, e.g. Vandoren, Selmer, etc. provide a little extra 'oomph' in the shaping and finishing of the mpc's they provide to their endorsing artists, or are they strictly standard?
b>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-15 15:13
I guess my problem with the video within the context of a way to advise the parents of beginners is that you do not also make the point that much is lost in the recording process itself (no matter how good it might be), not to mention that anyone listening to this side-by-side comparison is probably doing this on a phone.
Ok, you don't want to get mired in specifics I grant you, but you DO use specific ligatures by name and put them in the same category as a plastic c-clamp. I would think this would encourage rank beginners to use all sorts of goony stuff that may even be harmful to the mouthpiece or learning the basics clarinet in general.
This may be a problem with the internet as a communication device as a whole. Stuff gets put out there with no apparent context and others take it in whatever context they are in at the moment (a micro example is someone making a purposely "witty" remark and neglecting to place a smiley face next to it).
I still think it's funny that we all got worked up over it.
And by the way, what brand of frames are those?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: earspasm
Date: 2014-06-16 07:03
First to the important question: they're Eyebobs frames.
Next: you can actually get pretty good fidelity on YouTube video. I use the same $1,500 microphone to make those that I use to make most of my recordings. (For those interested, an SE Electronics Gemini II transformerless tube microphone.) I grant you, my dining room ain't a recording studio, but the point hopefully is still well made, whether you're listening on a bazillion dollar sound system or an iPhone speaker: they all sound -- and feel -- pretty much the same. They really do, or I wouldn't have made the video.
Again, ad nauseum, the point is when you're a young player, get a ligature you like and forget about it. Florian Popa or Vandoren or Luyben or whatever you want, the difference is marginal compared to the difference it will make just practicing the goddamn horn.
Amiright? Can I get a witness? Is there anyone on this board who would disagree with me?
Mike
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-16 16:15
There are two factors that I have been introduced to in more recent years that mitigate any difference in ligatures period.
The first is using minimal to almost zero torque. If you just have the ligature on enough so that the reed will sit there without falling off, the reed vibrates unencumbered by most factors that any ligature can present.
BREAK FOR STORY - A friend of mine who is a phenomenal saxophone player was playing a recital at which I happened to be sitting in the front row. At one point he finished a phrase an as he removed his saxophone from his mouth I could have sworn I saw the reed spin almost 90 degrees off axis. He made a quick adjustment and went on. After the show I asked him if I actually say what I thought I saw. He explained that he just bumped the mouthpiece carelessly at that moment and yes, he leaves the reed on THAT loose all the time for better resonance! I actually didn't even try that out then. It took me years to give that a shot with some really good results.
The second factor is even more 'maddening.' As unfortunate as I find it (due to my recent quest to make synthetic reeds viable for Bb clarinet), Legere reeds (and I have tried every conceivable combination of strength, cut and various mouthpieces) impair the overtone series to a substantial degree. Though acceptably euphonic for the most part, they blur even differences in sound from one clarinet to another. I can go from a R13 Vintage (modern designation that is) to a Yamaha CSG and hear no noticeable difference in timbre at all.........this is sad.
So yes, under those conditions there are few differences if any with various ligatures. And yes, students need to concentrate on learning how to play the clarinet first. No piece of equipment will make them sound like "so-and-so." But if a clarinetist feels better about her or his Brahms with "such-and-such" a ligature, no cries of foul from the bleachers will make a difference to him or her.
.................Paul Aviles
P.S. Eyebobs - I'll look those up
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-06-16 20:24
I'd still like to know how Artie Shaw got his famous "silvery" tone, that is so beautiful to hear.
b>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-16 21:28
Artie would probably be the first one to say it was "all him." He studied with violinists as well as other instrumentalists to arrive at his unique style. He was quite critical of Benny Goodman for obsessing about the clarinet for it's own sake. For Artie, it was all about the music.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2014-06-16 22:14
Heh...The best way to sound like Artie Shaw was to be Artie Shaw. But then again, he found being Artie Shaw a very trying thing, and was never satisfied with his own sound.
Never heard of him studying with a violinist or anyone for that matter--by his own account he was entirely self taught on both sax and clarinet.
He probably delved far deeper into the actual mechanics of playing than he ever admitted....but he had no reason to give away his hard won secrets. This aside, his "Method" (which gives no hint as to his tone concept or production) reads like a forerunner to the Viola Saxophone Method used for generations at Berklee. What an intellect...
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2014-06-17 01:32
It matters --- really matters
Prepping for a HSO POP concert last week I decided to use an old Selmer mouthpiece. I had three ligatures that fit it.
1. Music DeMarc with parallel wood tubes holding the reed
2. Pure brass ligature single top screw ligature
3. Ligature with a titanium reed plate bottom screw
Used same horn and same Blue Box Vandoren reed
Used same Petersen professional strobe and clip on microphone
Used same pro Sony Headphones with speakers in off position
Used tuning cd tracks
Lig # 1-- "fuzzy ovetones" hard to see because too fuzzy
Lig #2 -- overtones lined up all with well defined sharp black boxes
Lig #3 -- fundamentals sharp but over tones fuzzy.
Guess what ligature i picked.
Post Edited (2014-06-17 01:47)
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2014-06-17 20:54
When I read David Pino's advice in his book on the clarinet (now available in a Dover reprint) to use a shoestring as a ligature, I promptly tried it, and instantly became a total convert. The tone and response exceed anything I've found in any other ligature: fuller, richer, freer... everything you'd ever want and more.
Klarnetisto
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-17 23:43
I don't feel so bad for the "inner conflicted" Artie Shaw. He was a rock star of his era and was married (for a while) to Eva Gardner!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2014-06-18 03:15
The fellow in this video did a really sloppy job of tying a shoelace as a ligature! It's amazing it sounded as well as it did. I always thought that one should try to make the loops as tight, close together and even as possible, and that always gives me good results.
Klarnetisto
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2014-06-18 03:27
Having said that, I actually thought that he got the best sound from the Florian Popa wooden ligature. But (per Popa's website) these cost 93 or 119 Euro (not including VAT) for the bass clarinet (85 & 111 for soprano clarinet). So I'll stick with my shoestring for now...!
http://www.clarsaxpopa.com/Ligatures/art-2-Acoustic_ligature_FP_for_clarinet
Klarnetisto
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-18 06:35
You don't include VAT. That's just for the Europeans!
A friend of mine swears by a solid brass one he has for bass clarinet. Of course he never tried a plastic C-clamp.
............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-06-18 06:38)
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Author: david_macrae
Date: 2014-06-20 08:41
That was an awesome video. I was laughing my head off. I was also remembering more than once agonizing over getting a new lig and paying quite a lot for it. This remings me and hopefully with remind others to practice more and worry about equipment less.
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