 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-01 00:48
Have a Buffet Greenline clarinet completely broken in half. Both sides fit well- no chips or fragments gone. What is the best cement to use for this application?
Thanks,
Jerry
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-01 01:05
By "in half" do you mean that the tenon at the bottom of the top joint snapped off?
This is unfortunately not uncommon since the material is mostly resin and is consequently rather brittle (resistant to moisture and temperature but not "blunt force trauma").
If your horn is within five years old and you have the receipt, Buffet should honor its warranty and replace the entire top joint. You only have to find a shop through which to execute the transfer of keys (and re-padding).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-01 01:15
No- the lower joint is broken into two halves in the center right through a tone hole. It's a clean, slightly ragged break with no loose chip outs or lost material. I'm wondering whether epoxy such as J-B Weld or an acrylic cement would be best. This is an expensive low C Bass Clarinet. Perhaps vertical reinforcing pins would also be be required. But the main question is- what cement to use.
Jerry
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-01 01:30
Hopefully Chris P will chime in here. I've heard of extra pinning but the actual repair specifics are out of my league.
.........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-02-01 03:25
I think you'd have to look at getting the joint lined with a metal liner, at least in the broken area and a bit either side. You need an expert and I'm not one.
Tony F.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-02-01 10:16
I owned a fine plastic Riac oboe which had a similar break that was permanently fixed by the prior owner, apparently with a strong epoxy. Someone had probably sat on it. It played very well with a beautiful sound and tuning.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-02-01 12:04
I would glue it with strong slow setting epoxy and stainless steel reinforcement pins. It's the same method used by Gordon (NZ) who also posts here sometimes. There are some critical details that I can explain if interested. I personally wouldn't trust glue only, unless there was a glue that was proven to "welt" the break with the Greenline material and even then I probably wouldn't use just glue and add the pins.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-02-01 12:20
super glue? JB weld would be too thick to set it back cleanly.
either way make sure to clean the break with rubbing alcohol.
agree with other posts CF band outside or drilling/inserting several pins into break surface is a cheap insurance.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-02-01 17:06
The early Greenlines had this problem, and I suppose it will happen to later ones if there was an impact. The best solution is to replace the joint. labor can be expensive. Keys need to be refit and new pads installed.
I haven't tried pinning a Greenline. I know that the bodies have to be machined with carbide tools. High speed steel would wear out too fast.
If it is an early model, the problem may be due to oils that were in the wood dust. Buffet started drying out the wood dust after breakage problem early on.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-01 17:14
I knew it was only a matter of time before reports of broken Greenline basses started coming through.
If it can't be repaired with pins and epoxy as mentioned above, then the only real solution is a replacement lower joint.
I'd even suggest you go so far as to get a wooden lower joint for it as a lower joint on a low C bass has to carry a lot of weight, so you want that part to be as strong as possible.
If you do manage to get it repaired successfully, it could still break at another weak spot as let's face it, Greenline isn't the ideal material for such a large instrument. It's not even strong enough for a Bb clarinet either.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-02 01:17
One approach would be to repair it in same manner as for a broken tenon i.e. both halves would be counter- bored to about 1 - 1.5" depth and then a rod of ebonite drilled and machined to correct external and the internal bore dimensions and glued in place with epoxy.
The tone hole(s) going through the ebonite would need to be redrilled.
This would be infinitely stronger than just glue - think of the leverage exerted on the broken join by the lengths of a low C bass joint.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-02-02 01:33
any chance of a picture?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-02 01:45
Or even a brass, nickel silver or aluminium tube would do the trick. Failing that, a grenadilla sleeve will still be stronger than ebonite or any plastic.
Only thing is it will mean the joint will be thin at two points due to being counterbored to fit the sleeve, so that will be new areas of weakness.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-03 03:48
It may be of use to somebody, so here is what I once wrote: (Perhaps thicker, longer pins for a bass clarinet, so that there is more surface area for the glue around the pins.)
PINNING A BROKEN PLASTIC BODY
Some technicians have promoted simply gluing broken plastic bodies (and tenons). I am reluctant to trust an adhesive in a rather small surface area in a butt joint. In careful use a clarinet body is subject only to sheer (twisting in this case) stress and mild compressive stress during assembly, mild tensile stress during disassembly, and some insignificant bending stress during some fingering. However I suspect that such a mend will fail as soon as it is subject to significant bending (tensile) stress, perhaps in a mild accident or in the hands of a rough user.
The traditional method of boring the body at the break, and grafting a plastic sleeve is fine, but I offer an alternative of pinning, which may be different in some important respects, from the pinning jobs we have all seen that fail. Both grafting and pinning are similar methods in that they both use a butted glue joint, but reinforce this joint by introducing new material parallel to the bore, i.e. across the face of the break. In one case the introduced reinforcing material is a plastic cylinder, and in the other, a series of metal pins. Both methods capitalize on the high SHEER strength of adhesives.
As I see it, the advantages of the pinning method as I use it, are:
1. With a graft there is potentially a significantly weakened area of the wall of the instrument at each end of the graft, where part of the wall has been removed and replaced with adhesive. This is not the case with pinning.
2. Pinning does not need a lathe or similar. Grafts do.
3. Pinning does not require obtaining stock body material for a graft.
4. Pinning does not interfere with any tone holes or post holes.
5. Pinning is probably stronger, providing the method is good.
6. In my experience of using both methods, pinning is considerably quicker.
7. The pins themselves are stronger than the graft would be.
A disadvantage is that it needs the broken faces to be reasonably clean, and free from the adhesive of failed previous attempts, to ensure good alignment of the two body parts.
I use epoxy glue, but reinforce the mend by fitting seven 1.2 mm diameter stainless steel reinforcing pins across the break, i.e. parallel to the bore of the body. Each pin is about 50 mm (2") long, but more if extra strength is required. The trick is to get adhesive all along the pins so that the SHEER strength of the adhesive is utilised. (Kraus's straight stainless steel springs may be suitable as pins, but I buy straight stainless steel in long lengths. It is probably available from http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/swgx.cfm))
1. Mark out the 6 or 7 pin locations, at the break line, on the outside of both parts of the instrument body using a white pencil. (A greasy one used for black photo album paper is excellent). Choose positions carefully to avoid lining up with tone holes and posts.
2. I use a hand-held dental micromotor to drill 1.4 mm holes from the break surface starting half way across the wall thickness of the break itself, to a depth of about 25 mm on both sections of body. The holes are parallel to the bore. A sharp drill, slow speed, and plenty of withdrawing to clear swarf are required so as not to melt the plastic while it is drilled. I BEGIN the holes with a short drill with 2.3 mm shank because it is more rigid for starting accurately half way across the body wall. A small dental burr would do instead.
3. An air vent hole is required at the 'blind' end of each of the holes. This is necessary in order to get adhesive along the entire length of each pin-hole, as described later. Put a straight piece of brass wire (e.g. a straightened paper clip) down a hole to gauge the depth and mark (with the pencil) the depth, i.e. the location of the bottom of the hole, on the outside of the body. Leave the wire there in the hole for visual alignment and drill from the outside, straight into the body wall towards the bore, near the bottom of the pin's hole. I use a 0.5 mm drill. I know when I have broken through to the pin's hole because the paper clip wiggles. Repeat this for each pin's hole. Blow air through these vent holes to ensure that they link to the pin-holes.
4. Cut the pin wire to length, i.e. almost as long as the total length of each matching pair of pin-holes. These pins, approximately 50 mm long, may be of slightly different lengths. Fit them one at a time, checking that the two body parts are not prevented from meeting freely when each single pin is installed. If corresponding holes of the two body parts do not line up quite right, this will be obvious because it will prevent accurate alignment of the two body parts. If so, then the first few mm of the hole can be 'widened' in an appropriate direction to stop the pin from distorting body alignment. Make sure that you know which hole each pin belongs in.
5. I rough up these pins using the edge of a course file, for better glue adhesion.
6. Epoxy glue wrecks the surface of ABS plastic so it must not get on visible surfaces. I use Sellotape (other types such as plastic masking tape may be better still) to protect the outside of the body, everywhere that glue may ooze. Apply it around both parts of the body right up to the very edge of the break. Sellotape has enough stretch to accommodate most irregularities. If necessary, trim the tape exactly at the break and roughly around nearby posts with a sharp knife.
7. Also wrap Sellotape around the body where the air vent holes are, and then prick through to the holes with a pin so that they will still vent air and glue.
8. Protect the bore of the instrument (and any tone hole surfaces involved) from the epoxy sticking, by smearing thinly with cork grease over the susceptible areas.
9. I mix my epoxy with a little black paint pigment powder and put it into a disposable 3 ml syringe. I actually use the metallic base of NON-disposable syringe with the actual needle tube cut off. This makes a better nozzle than a disposable needle's plastic base. However the latter will do. (The glue will not travel through a long thin needle)
10. Squirt glue RIGHT THROUGH each 1.4 mm hole, from the break end, until the glue begins to ooze out the air vent (through the pricked holes in the Sellotape). Apply some more glue to the surfaces of the break itself.
11. Smear each pin with glue. I simply roll it in a small 'puddle' of glue on the mixing pallet). Insert each pin into its appropriate hole in ONE section of the body. Take care to wipe off excess glue exiting the vent holes before it drips or moves off the Sellotape. Then slide the other part of the body over all the pins at once, until both body parts meet.
12. Generally clean up excess exterior glue, ensuring that there is slight excess remaining at the break itself and at the vent holes.
13. I use cotton string to pull the two pieces of body firmly together, by winding it from post to post across the break.
14. Lay the body horizontal so that any glue oozing inside the body does not flow off the area protected by cork grease.
15. I sometimes use a 100 watt incandescent bulb neaby to warm the body, hence improving adhesion and shortening setting time.
16. Leave until the glue is firm, no longer sticky to the fingers, but not fully cured. Remove the string. Remove the Sellotape, being careful not to pull the soft glue out of where it belongs. This is the best time to remove bulky excess glue, especially inside the body. I use a hard plastic (acrylic) rod sharpened at an angle at the end. This does not scratch the surface of the instrument.
17. When the glue is harder, cut away any excess at the vent holes and the break. I use a chisel-shaped piece of acrylic sheet for this at the break because it is soft enough to be unlikely to damage the surface of the body.
18. I drill the glue out of the needle base (with a 1.0 mm or smaller drill) so I can use it again next time. The syringe itself can be thrown away or the remaining glue pushed out with a wire. Compressed air helps too.
This process may seem very complicated but it has never failed. Another local repairer has tried to copy it but had failures because the rods were not adequately glued, on account of lack of any vent holes.
I work fast and each job takes me 60 to 90 minutes, excluding glue setting time. I have not been brave enough to use fast-setting epoxy!
For broken tenons I simplify the method somewhat, and often do not even need to change the original tenon cork. The main differences are:
• I drill the pin holes first through the tenon from the break side, then hold the tenon to body as a guide, and partly drill into the body via the tenon. Then complete the drilling of the body without the tenon in place.
• Cut the length of the pins so they finish about 1 mm below the surface of the end of the tenon. (Each pin tailored to each hole)
• Fill those spaces at the ends of the holes with black epoxy, and trim neatly.
Post Edited (2014-02-03 08:34)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-03 09:03
Gordon- thank you so much for finding this old post- I think that I will give it go; I'll let you know how it went.
Jerry
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-03 13:38
You're most welcome.
And I'd love to hear how it works out, and if improvements can be made to my instructions.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-04 23:22
Dear saxlite,
I am not fishing for an embarrassing response, but could you at least tell me if there was an accidental cause to the "cleft clarinet" or did you just hear a popping from inside the case one day?
I ask because I would like order the 1193 Prestige. Every fiber of my being points me in the Greenline direction: continuity of dimensions from manufacture to the end user and the resulting intended intonation characteristics, lessened (eliminated) issues of expansion and contraction causing long keys to bind (particularly this time of year), no worries about playing a gig under "questionable weather conditions."
HOWEVER, there IS concern about durability under less than ideal conditions brought on by the operator.
And under the heading of "full disclosure," I've cleft two Bbs in just the last four years. Oh those slippery hands of mine :-)
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-05 01:53
Paul- if you have slippery hands, a Greenline Low C may not be the ideal choice for you.
My observation is that while the Greenline material may be dimensionally stable, the material is VERY brittle. Unfortunately, about halfway down the lower joint you have a large tone hole opposite a small tone hole and a small screw hole (securing a post ) all in a line- this is a very weak design which can't be avoided as the holes must be located where they are. Doesn't take much of a shock to cause a break exactly where one would predict it. In this case, the instrument apparently was mishandled somehow- the teen-ager who plays it won't fully confess what happened, so I can't say for sure. Personally, I would not choose to buy the Greenline over the conventional wood model, given my experience with this situation. ( FWIW, my own Bass Clarinet is a 50's era grenadilla Selmer; it has served me well.)
Jerry
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-04 21:27
Long rods don't tend to bind up on wooden instruments - it's the short rods running across the joints that usually bind up as wood shrinks/expands widthways far more than it does lengthways.
Plastic and composites tend to shrink/expand in both directions and long key rods are the ones that suffer most on them, so they need to have a certain amount of end play between the pillars relative to their length.
Personally I'd avoid Greenline instruments like the plague as I've seen too many broken ones. Natural grenadilla has natural tensile strength that Greenline and other plastics and composites lack.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-05 07:57
Thanks for the heads up !
Oh and as for the LONG KEYS, I'm dealing with that right now on a Yamaha bass. I love the Yamaha sopranos dearly but OY, that bass !!!!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-02-05 03:56
>> Oh and as for the LONG KEYS, I'm dealing with that right now on a Yamaha bass. I love the Yamaha sopranos dearly but OY, that bass !!!! <<
As much as I like Yamaha instruments in general (most of the time), their low C bass clarinets are still far behind Buffet and Selmer as far as the design of the long keys and linkages.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-05 16:04
Saxlite wrote "My observation is that while the Greenline material may be dimensionally stable..."
Greenline is basically a polymer with dust mixed into it.
Polymers typically have a temperature-related dimensional instability that is greater than grenadilla's moisture-content-related instability. This is problematic for the long keys on large instruments. (And the reason a Japanese Yamaha engineer told me a couple of decades ago that Yamaha did not then make a plastic bass.)
Does the Greenline material not fit into that general behaviour?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-05 16:07
I have NOT run into any key issues with Greenlines on this score. However, there have been some examples (usually with the bell) where the tenons seem to swell and get too firm ...... resulting in stressing the tenon and snapping the tenon (at least on the first few years of them).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-05 17:52
Greenlines can suffer from dimensional instablity? This is disappointing to hear. I thought that Buffet made the best non wooden clarinet available. What is the advantage of the Greenline, if it suffers from sudden fractures, dimensional instability greater than that of grenadilla and no cost benefit over a traditional clarinet like their own R13? Does hard rubber suffer from dimensional instability like a polymer too?
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-02-05 18:08
I wonder if anyone really knows exactly what the composition of "Greenline" is. We hear comments but no verified facts. Why Buffet chose this way to go I can't imagine but the decision was made under a prior management. Non wood clarinets have been made for years using other "plastics" and have given good service. The idea of using "Grenadilla waste" as a filler was a Marketing Engineering idea. Time to bite the bullet and write off a bad idea.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-05 19:13
If they claim Greenline is made from 90% reclaimed grenadilla powder, then that leaves very little in the way of resin to bind it all together which will make it brittle. It's (going from what literature I've read) formed using heat and high pressure to make the billets which are then machined in the usual manner, although I'd also suspect they have to resharpen the cutting tools regularly.
They also mention they use carbon fibre in the formula, but is this in small fragments or long lengths? All the fractures I've seen have a very uniform granular appearance and no signs of any fibres on the broken ends which I'd expect to see if it did have carbon fibre in the composition.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2014-02-05 14:14
"Time to bite the bullet and write off a bad idea."
I bought my new Bb Greenline Buffet some time between 1995 (when it was made) and 2000. I live in the very dry southwest and this clarinet has no cracks and no pins. it has fallen out of its case at least once, and had a stuck barrel twisted off which such effort that I was surprised that the tenon stayed on the clarinet.
Knock on glue and wood dust; it seems like a good idea to me.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-05 21:06
NO NO, Greenline does NOT suffer the same dimensional instability as wood!
If any thing what I and others have experienced (only a fraction of the what wood goes through) is due to plain old physics: as a material is heated, it will expand (and the inverse is true). The same applies to gold, gas, lead, hard rubber..........anything, because you excite the atoms and molecules and the result is that the constituent parts become more active and spread apart.
The dimensional instability that is most distressing about wood is that it "settles." The exact dimensions (size AND shape) can be perturbed AFTER the final touches at the factory. This is less so the more stable (aged, treated) the wood is that is used, but is always a possibility. It is the irregularities of these critical dimensions that lead to more irregularities in the pitch from note to note. This is probably why manufacturers that have to crank out a large number of horns per year have more "hit or miss" results with their horns (who has time to cure wood when it hard enough to to even get enough of the building material in the first place).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-05 21:16
You used the 'H' word!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-02-05 21:27
any experience with Hanson's "Reinforced Grenadilla" (which they claim is something similar)?
I have one of these, it's doing very fine so far, but I'm not gonna do the Gravity Test...
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-05 21:33
"NO NO, Greenline does NOT suffer the same dimensional instability as wood!"
I think we are talking about different things here.
What I am talking about is this:
For a bass clarinet there are some very long keys, spanning long lengths of body. The lengthening and shorting of the keys with temperature is negligible, but if the BODY changes length with temperature this creates a whole raft of problems re precision of pivots, which affects precision of linkages, which is precarious at best for the low notes of a bass clarinet. Alignment of pads with tone holes is also affected.
Grenadilla is very length-stable, especially with temperature changes. (Changes in moisture content have a small effect.) That is a major reason for selecting this timber above others - not for any acoustic quality!)
AFAIK the temperature-related length stability for polymers varies from poor to a lot poorer.
This Greenline, in spite of the dust in it, is basically a polymer. Are you saying that there is some reason why has more length stability than other polymers, eg ABS that is used on most other plastic instruments?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-05 21:44
It is good that the "wow" factor of Greenline material has settled down, so we can discuss the material in a more considered fashion than when it first came out.
Chris wrote "They also mention they use carbon fibre in the formula, but is this in small fragments or long lengths? All the fractures I've seen have a very uniform granular appearance and no signs of any fibres on the broken ends which I'd expect to see if it did have carbon fibre in the composition."
That is one thing that concerns me. What they should be doing is using LONG fibres of carbon fibre in the locations that are most likely to break. There seems to be zero evidence of that.
I doubt that very short fibres of carbon fibre in this composite would add to strength at all. So why are they there? Is it just because it sounds good in the marketing, adding a point of difference and pseudo high techiness. Added by marketing crew rather than any design engineers.
Presumably the grenadilla dust was added for the same marketing reasons, appealing to "greeny" concepts, and the false notion that this would have some effect on tone.
So that leaves this material with possibly no practical advantage over say ABS plastic or that other common polymer, hard rubber.
Post Edited (2014-02-06 02:45)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-05 22:23
Ebonite would be a better choice of material, but the biggest downside is the sulphur content which will tarnish up silver plating in next to no time. They can always use nickel plate, but that's only applied thinly and we're all aware how soon this wears out and also the problem of nickel allergies which some will experience. Ebonite is tough going on cutting tools as well, although I'm not sure if it's the same, or more or less compared to machining Greenline. When I've done transplants on Greenlines, I've found fitting the tenons is tough going compared to grenadilla.
I wonder how many Greenline Prestige low C basses have shed their middle tenons since they went on the market? And the bass in question - was the break across the vicinity of two opposing toneholes on the lower joint?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-06 03:39
Re: where's the break -see my previous email describing the break- yes, it is right through two opposing tone holes plus a small post retaining screw- just as you would predict.
Jerry
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-06 00:45
Sorry Jerry - I think it's time I got glasses!
Just goes to show that your old Selmer bass is built from the correct material (ie. grenadilla) and will outlive any new Greenline instrument.
Even if this lower joint is repaired successfully or a new replacement one is supplied, how long will it be before it breaks again or somewhere else?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-06 05:58
Chris- I'm getting all set to tackle Gordon's method of reinforcing the weak spot with steel pins and epoxying the whole area up. Hopefully, this bolstering plus some more careful handling from the player will let it last a while. Can't say how long this fix will last, but replacement joints are VERY expensive!
Jerry
PS- I must say that I'm impressed with how much traffic this subject has generated! Apparently Greenlines are quite controversial. I'm sorry that this repair arrived right after I returned from the NAMM show- I would have confronted the great Francis Kloc directly!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-06 14:12
Is this bass still under warranty? I'd go down that route first before doing anything (but still good to have a spare if you can get a replacement lower joint) - and would definitely go for a wooden lower joint instead of another Greenline one.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-06 20:15
Unfortunately, the Bass Clarinet was purchased second hand off the unmentionable website- no warrantee. Buying a replacement joint is quite expensive, so attempting a repair is a good gamble.
Jerry
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-06 20:45
I see.
I dread to think how much a new lower joint would cost on its own.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2014-02-08 00:06
I'm leery of the "wow" factor of anything with the word "green" in it whether it be light bulbs, mineral spirits or clarinets.
We are so overtaken with the hype behind the word "green" that we are willing to spend more money for inferior products. Not to suggest the Greenline is an inferior product (yet), but I have already experienced too many various inferior products with the word "green". These have been hyped as technologically energy or resource-saving products that are sold based on marketing prowess more than being really ready for prime time.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-10 09:34
Pins and epoxy in place- Greenline bass resting quietly for a few days to insure the epoxy is well cured. Then the final clean cleanup and key replacement and we'll see what we have. I'll post some pix then- I took some minor liberties with Gordon's procedure, but used his basic concepts. The pix will show the details.
Jerry
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2014-02-14 20:27
I'm glad to read this thread. Living in the desert SW it is always on my mind how the lack of humidity affects my instruments and I keep them humidified. Short of humidifying a room in my home, or god forbid the whole home, it is an undertaking. The greenline Buffet clarinets are always alluring, especially given that Dr. Bob Spring from ASU is a proponent and has been using his for years without issue. So far, and for the time being, I'm avoiding the temptation. On another note, I wish someone would just build a high quality hard rubber bass. No offense to Tom Ridenour but the reviews of his aren't enough to tempt me, especially when some have been critical of fit and finish which is his true "unique selling proposition." He could do it if he put his mind to it and he appears to be the only one invested in the idea.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-02-14 17:48
Quote:
I wish someone would just build a high quality hard rubber bass.
As an owner of a GreenLine soprano, I totally agree. When I was looking for a high end composite clarinet Buffet seemed to be the only one on the market. I'm satisfied with it but I miss my Selmer Series 10. I've said it before, now I'll say it again, I wish Selmer would develop a high quality hard rubber line of instruments.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-02-15 05:34
Quote:
They could call them Bundy.....
*rimshot!*
Priceless!
Thanks for that one!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-02-15 12:14
Oh, Gordon, hard rubber clarinets sound better than ABS ones!
Bob Draznik
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2014-02-15 18:22
"They could call them Bundy..... Bob Draznik"
Maybe its only obvious to me Bob but a Bundy is a single register key mechanism with its simplified system and its inherit intonation issues. Part of the "high quality" label to me was to have "professional" intonation. I've had a nice email exchange with Ted Ridenour, he approached me based on my earlier post, and he is proud of their newest bass clarinet offering. It would be refreshing if their key work is well made and he's going to send me some pictures of their register mechanism. The only one pictured on their website is their bassoon range with multiple thumb keys. I've only played an Eb bass and am unfamiliar with this thumb key set up. I like the adjustable neck as well. After that it would be down to sound and feel.
"What advantage does hard rubber have over ABS?"
To Gordon, the advantage to me with regard to material is that hard rubber comes from a natural source. I personally find that more satisfying. Whether or not there is an advantage to the sound, I'm not going to speculate as the issue of materials is so heavily debated and I don't feel qualified to weigh in.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2014-02-15 18:26
I will add that I don't feel very good about buying Chinese made products, a personal bias. This would inhibit my purchase from Ridenour. Ultimately, I'm more likely to buy a used Selmer Paris if/when I switch instruments.
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2014-02-16 00:21
bbillings, I very much understand the hesitation to purchase products of Chinese origin, as I have had much the same fears over the years, but I have to say that I am very impressed with what Mr. Ridenour has done with his latest incarnation of the Lyrique bass clarinet. I play one every day, 8 shows a week (twice on Saturday and Sunday!) in the national tour of the Broadway revival of West Side Story, and I have not once been let down by the instrument. I made the decision to purchase it because I did not want to subject a 10K wood instrument to the rigors of touring life (pits are hazardous places, and we're just wrapping up a six-week stint in Alaska and Canada, where at one point, our entire orchestra gondola came off the truck encased in ice), and I specifically did not want to buy a Greenline bass for the exact issues that have been discussed in this thread. I have seen entirely too many Greenline tenons sheared off (especially in pits), and it just seemed a very expensive risk to take.
I play a fair amount of bass clarinet in the show, much of it exposed solo work, and much of it in unison with either a cello or bass...the intonation of this instrument is absolutely fabulous, and the sound is rich, powerful, and it plays very smoothly all the way up into the upper altissimo. I will say that the keywork of course is not exactly on par with the Selmer Privilege or the Buffet 1193, but for almost a quarter of the price, how could it be? I would love to see a redesign of the basset mechanism, but on the whole, I've had no problems with adjustment since we started the tour back in October. The keywork is much improved from the soft metal that was the chief complaint in the earlier incarnations of the instrument, and all the linkages are very solid. It isn't the fanciest looking keywork, and the thumb key arrangement is not my favorite, but it certainly gets the job done. In fact, of all the instruments I play in the show, it is the one I worry about the least.
Knowing Tom's work as I do (I have been a longtime player of the Leblanc clarinets he designed in the 90s), I have no doubt that future models of the Lyrique bass will continue to improve mechanically. It really is a viable alternative to the Greenline, though, and much more budget friendly, particularly for the casual bass clarinetist. I'm sure he'd send you one to try for a while just to form your own opinion of it, if you'd like :-)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-16 05:10
Success!! The broken Buffet Greenline Low C Bass clarinet has finally been cleaned up, keys replaced ( what a jigsaw puzzle! ) adjusted, tested and delivered to the player. He came and gave it a good going over and pronounced it worthy- he is going to play it in the California State Honor Orchestra performance this week. The players father has, along with myself, breathed a great sigh of relief.
My profound thanks to Gordon the Great for suggesting the methodology that I followed. I decided to use blue painter's masking tape to protect the areas near the break as well as allow me to draw pencil lines to indicate the drilling locations for both the big longitudinal pins and the small air-bleed holes- worked fine. I also used a drill press to make the pin holes, and an extra pair of hands was very helpful for this operation. I cadged some small disposable syringes from the local pharmacy and used a short piece of flexible tubing pressed on the spout to inject the J-B Weld epoxy, and a long threaded rod with large washers at each to clamp the works while it set. All in all, a big project, but one that I have derived great satisfaction in successfully completing. Pix later,as soon as I can get to it.
Jerry
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-16 09:27
"To Gordon, the advantage to me with regard to material is that hard rubber comes from a natural source. I personally find that more satisfying."
Hmm. Hard rubber is a natural material, sap of the rubber tree, chemically manipulated by scientists to polymerise it into a solid material.
ABS: A material occurring in nature, manipulated chemically by scientists to polymerise it into a solid material.
So what are you saying?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-16 09:31
Thanks for your report, Saxlite. I am so happy to have helped... an empathetic tear in my eye for your success and satisfaction.
Quicker the second time. 
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-02-16 09:45
Gordon- you are most welcome. You have been an inspiration.
Jerry
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-02-16 08:15
Congratulations, saxlite! What an interesting and informative thread — with a happy ending, no less!
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2014-02-17 00:01
Saxlite,
Really brave of you and congratulations on a result! Looking forward to those pictures!
Gordon,
Not to debate chemistry and composition with you, however, there are SIGNIFICANT differences between vulcanized rubber with sulfer added and a thermoplastic derivative of polystyrene. Not the least of which would be the ability and usefulness of it for recycling and the hazardous chemical offshoots of the process to both create and reduce. Without a doubt, hard rubber is more eco friendly and has a much greater percentage or reuse in recycled form. So what I'm saying is that rubber is renewable and recyclable and more environmentally friendly.
Brian
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-17 19:14
I can identify more with your new claims.
Your original claim was about coming from a natural source. You say that "thermoplastic derivative of polystyrene".
ABS is derived from acrylonitrile, butadiene, and styrene.
Acrylonitrile is a produced from propylene (from fossil fuels, but it occurs in nature as a byproduct of vegetation and fermentation processes) and ammonia (also occuring in nature, but commercially produced by catalytic combining of the natural gasses nitrogen and hydrogen.
Butadiene is a naturally occurring petroleum hydrocarbon - I suppose about as natural as the sulphur used to make hard rubber.
Styrene is made by dehydrogenation of ethyl benzene — a hydrocarbon obtained in the reaction of ethylene and benzene. Ethylene is an important plant hormone, but produced commercially using ethanol (the booze alcohol) and aluminium oxide, very common naturally in the environment, while benzene is a natural constituent of crude oil, which is natural - I guess about as natural as the sulphur used for hard rubber.
I wonder if mining sulphur and putting it on the surface of the planet is any more environmentally friendly than digging up the same quantity of crude oil.
How much of that sulphur eventually becomes acid rain, killing the likes of the Black Forest?
More questions than answers.
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Author: bbillings
Date: 2014-02-17 23:30
Gordon,
Seems you know quite a bit about the chemical engineering of the products. There are certainly hazards to the chemical modification of any natural product for commercial use. I will note that there are far more long chain organics involved in the production of the ABS plastic. Particularly notable to me is benzene and its derivatives which are known carcinogens. Styrene and polystyrene I don't believe will biodegrade either. Sulfur has its challenges but I suspect jet fuel has a greater effect on acid rain than clarinet manufacture! :-)
With regard to my original line of thought, regardless of synthetic material, I believe a professionally keyed, acoustically very similar, and high quality synthetic bass clarinet can be produced much less expensively than a grenadilla one. Especially given the rarity of the source and the curing process involved in the production of wooden instruments. For an adult amateur of my skill and with my lack of professional aspirations it could be an ideal combination. So called student clarinets are made with durability being the primary focus since children and schools may not care for the instruments properly or afford the time and money to maintain the instrument. I, however, would be very pleased with an automatic double register set up and be willing to maintain it and am careful with my instruments. Further on that line of thought I have a hard time accepting that Greenline instruments are: A) as or more environmentally friendly given the binding agent for the wood dust and B) that it is equally costly to produce as the grenadilla units though the pricing is identical. Especially since I suspect they disposed of this dust in the past. This makes it difficult to accept as an alternative. Those are my thoughts and I'm certain I'm not alone in being put off by the cost of the Buffet Greenline instruments.
Good exchange!
Brian
PS - In response to CocoboloKid, my concerns about Chinese products have more to do with politics and financial support for China than they really do with quality. With regard to quality, mainland China is supposedly improving but Taiwain is still the preferred manufacturing point to my understanding though losing favor due to their higher labor rate. Regardless, my experience is that you can choose as high quality product as you are willing to pay for in Taiwan. Mostly, they are financial decisions that limit the quality.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-02-18 13:19
BobD wrote:
> bb: Bushwa.......
>
A little expansion on your terse comment might make it more endearing to me.
Otherwise: why are you wasting space on my disks?
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The Clarinet Pages
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