 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: EBC
Date: 2013-04-02 02:03
Hello everyone,
This is something of an odd question, but, to the E-flat clarinet players of the Board playing Buffets: what length barrel do you use or consider "standard" and what pitch do you play at?
I ask because I had assumed, since my new E-flat came with two barrels, that it was sort of a usual "long-barrel-for-440-short-barrel-for-442" deal, but I'm finding the long barrel (41.5mm) works at 442 (the pitch my orchestras play at) and the short barrel is too high. I understand that the E-flat is very temperamental and that every instrument is different, every player is different, etc., but I'm still curious as to whether this seems normal.
Thanks,
Eric
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Author: Ed
Date: 2013-04-02 02:12
The short barrel is for all of those times when you need to match the piccolo player!
;-)
FWIW- On my Selmer series 9, I use a 43 mm. I have some colleagues with Buffets who seem to use 42 or 41.
Post Edited (2013-04-02 11:43)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-04-02 03:31
For what it's worth, my eefer uses a 42mm barrel (pushed all the way in) to play at A-440. The instrument is an old wood unlabeled instrument only marked "Czechoslovakia". So it's not a typical brand and may not provide a useful data point for you.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2013-04-02 05:01
Type of Eb mouthpiece is a large factor when it comes to pitch, with regards to both the instrument's diapason (A440/442, etc) and the instrument's internal, relative pitch.
My Pyne Eb mpc plays a mile lower than all my Vandorens (B40s, B44s and 5RVs). My mpcs with shallow baffles, like Vandorens, tend to play higher than my mpcs with deeper baffles.
There are 5 models of Eb clarinet made by Buffet. Barrel length differs between some models. For example, you mention your long barrel is 41.5 mm. For my
RC Prestige Eb, the long barrel is 42.2 mm and the short is 41.5 mm. Barrel length can be particular to a specific Buffet model.
But overall, the Eb mpc plays a large part in determining the diapason of the instrument. My experience suggests Eb mpc pitch level and its effect on overall pitch of an Eb clarinet is more immoderate than that of a Bb mpc. One comes across wickedly sharp and wickedly flat Eb mpcs more often than aberrantly sharp or flat Bb mpcs.
My Kaspar and Chedeville Eb mpcs are longer than my Pyne, but each play at least 15 cents sharper than the Pyne. Shortening the Pyne by 1.5 mm helped bring it up to 442.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-02 17:02
Eb mouthpieces of the same model (whether it's vandoren, selmer, etc.) can have wide variations in pitch as far as the internal volume. It can vary WIDELY, 20-30 cents in the case of some of the problem areas of the instrument (upper register left hand, notably).
It is also important to note that Vandoren Eb mouthpieces are all quite open, and the different models are essentially the same. The tip openings vary only by 2-4 points from the "closest" model (5RV) to the most open (B44). There isn't any intended internal difference between the three either, nor is there a "13 series" option on Eb.
The facing question for Eb often is asked in this fashion: "Should the Eb mouthpiece facing\tip be proportionally smaller than the Bb, or should it be the same or similar to Bb?"
I've found certain things with Eb mouthpieces to be very important given the challenges the instrument presents.
1) The facing need not be proportionally shorter (32 instead of 36 for example).
2) The tip opening need not be very wide, just the same as a Bb mouthpiece need not have a large distance between the reed and the tip. If anything, closer is better.
3) There is a necessity on Eb for the facing to be perfectly symmetrical. I don't think this is any less important on Bb.
Why? Why would these design factors be helpful on Eb? What's most "scary" about Eb?
1) Response on any given note and range is less predictable than Bb.
2) Tuning is indeed more temperamental and the tuning scale of the instrument is variable from instrument to instrument.
3) Overall, we need as much FLEXIBILITY as we can get away with on Eb without compromising consistency.
Close tip opening gives us predictability of response and an easier blow through. Embouchure pressure needed for the setup to function is less than a more open tip. Focus is more naturally present with less work.
Medium to Long facings give us flexibility. If we're trying to keep certain ranges in check (upper register left hand, most notably) we want to be able to adjust at a moments notice. A shorter facing limits the extent to which we can move pitch. We never want to get to a situation where we can't adjust anymore and are STILL sharp.
I have found these ideas to be most helpful to both people who have not played much Eb to people who play it frequently. Many people prefer to use Bb reeds cut down or Vandoren blackmasters for example. The facing length being closer to similar to Bb allows more of the reed to vibrate (as intended).
Just the same as Bb, or any other clarinet, the setup should be as predictable as possible and require the least amount of work for basic functionality (including tuning). Eb should be able to be played with the lightest reed we can get away with without sacrificing tonal stability or closing off.
All of that being said, there are a few things to take away as far as where to go from here. Most Eb mouthpieces from Vandoren are too open for an ideal playing experience. Even many custom Eb mouthpieces have the same problem, many times combined with a very short facing that lends itself to being inflexible. Zinner blank Eb mouthpieces tune similarly, if not a bit higher, than vandoren mouthpieces. Basically, there are relatively few Eb mouthpieces on the market that provide ample tip openings and facings for the best likelihood of predictable and flexible tuning.
My Eb clarinet is a standard R13 which came with the standard 41.5mm barrel. I have yet to find a mouthpiece that would be below a comfortable 442 with the standard barrel. Other Eb's vary a bit on this, but the shorter barrel with most Eb Buffets should be more than adequate to play at 442. It's certainly a rare experience to hear an Eb be FLAT at any given time with the shorter barrel. I have a 43mm barrel for my Eb in order to be comfortable at 440. With the same setup, a 42mm barrel would comfortable cover the distance to 442.
The balance between stability and flexibility on Eb is one of great importance, since any given note can pretty easily be heard, even through a large orchestra. In my opinion, most things on the market favor too heavily on the side of stability and leave people at a loss for playing at pitch.
As with Bb mouthpieces\instruments, the way to go is:
1) Understand the design aspects of mouthpieces and instrument models and the affect it will have on your experience.
2) Try as many as possible, finding the balance of tip opening and facing length with a variety of reeds that provides the best result.
3) Unless you have your own Eb, making sure your setup is flexible enough (not compensating too much for that specific horn) so you can use it effectively on other instruments.
(FWIW) I use a Selmer table hs from the 1920's that has a deeper baffle along with great rubber. The facing\tip opening is roughly 0.97mm tip with a 17.5mm facing length. Vandoren Blue Box 3's as well.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-02 17:10
Side note: Playing in the Contemporary Music Ensemble at McGill in 2010 I was using the standard 41.5mm barrel with a B44 and was constantly frustrated keeping the pitch down. A year or so later I started mouthpiece refacing and closed the B44 down from a 1.10 to a 1.00 and saw significant improvement. Eventually I moved to a 43mm barrel to play 440 then to the Selmer I acquired and now I just make sure my reeds are good. I would only use the 41.5mm barrel now to bring the pitch up to 442, but would still be pulled out a bit.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-04-02 17:36
The body lengths of Buffets and Selmers are different - the Buffets having the longer body and shorter barrel and Selmes having longer barrels and a shorter body joint - you can see this if you line them up so the toneholes line up with each other. Obviously there will be differences in tonehole diameters and placements between Selmer and Buffet as well as with old and new Buffets as they change things over time.
My Buffet has three barrels measuring 42.4mm, 42.2mm and 42.0mm and the only barrel that came with my Selmer is 46.2mm, so is considerably longer than Buffet barrels. The 42.2mm one on the Buffet is the original and the others are replacements. There was a 51.5mm Selmer Eb barrel listed on eBay the other week (as well a 68-69mm Bb/A barrels), so they catered for all tastes.
As for measuring the joint lengths on my Ebs, that's really an impossible task for any comparitive results as my Selmer's built to low Eb.
The bell on my Buffet is 75mm tall and my Selmer's bell is 79mm - most newer Buffet Ebs I've seen have bells that are much longer than the 75mm one mine has, again this has fluctuated depending on what was best at the time they were being made.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2013-04-02 18:07
NBeaty, which of the custom or mass produced Eb mouthpieces do you recommend that are on the market today? You have me intrigued. Thanks.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-02 18:36
Hi Clarimeister,
Feel free to send me an email, nathan.beaty@gmail.com, and I can give you a few suggestions.
Nathan
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-04-02 21:19
With my Noblet Artist Eb, the barrel length is 41mm and it is fine at A440 with several mouthpieces I have.
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Author: EBC
Date: 2013-04-02 23:15
I must admit, I wasn't expecting this post to spark so many responses. My fears have been laid to rest!
Since my instrument (a Tosca E-flat) came with both 40.5mm and 41.5mm barrels, and I play a 65mm (as opposed to 66) on both my A and B-flat instruments, I felt like I should logically be playing the 40.5 barrel. It's good to know that many players use Buffet E-flat barrels that are 41.5mm or longer. Lesson learnt.
Of the mouthpiece/reed question, which has been very helpfully explained by a few of you, I have to admit I'm pretty happy with my current setup (Vandoren B44 and cut-down 56RL 3s). I would hypothesize that this may be because my B-flat/A setup is relatively similar (PlayEasy B2 with 56RL 3.5s). Both are relatively open with medium-long facings. I'll of course keep all of your advice in mind, though, should I go mouthpiece shopping in the future (sadly, quite likely).
To Nathan and Simon (and anyone else who wants to chime in): how do you feel the effect of depth of baffle in E-flat mouthpieces compares to that in B-flat/A mouthpieces? From my personal experience, I've found the most obvious effects of a deeper baffle in B-flat/A mouthpieces have been flat altissimo and "upper-register-left-hand" notes and a greater tendency to go flat with increased volume. (Relying here mostly on my own M13lyre and other 13 series mouthpieces I've tried.) Since these problems would logically be exacerbated on the E-flat clarinet, would it not be better to use a shallow baffle mouthpiece?
Thanks again to all who took the time to answer!
Eric
PS: To Ed - I chuckled.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-02 23:25
Hi Jason\all,
Indeed I left things a bit open ended. I'm happy that a number of you read one of my "short dissertations"!
!Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with any other mouthpiece crafstman!
My experience, as I stated above, is that very few mouthpieces available "out of the box", custom or otherwise, meet the needs of Eb players (and Bb\bass etc) as far as attaining the best possible playing experience.
As far as mouthpieces: The best options, in my opinion, are:
1) Vandoren\Selmer (of most any vintage, some better than others) refaced by Bradford Behn. He is a true artist in both playing and crafting superior mouthpieces. He also is running a special for refacing Vandorens for $50 instead of his usual rate of $75. Most refacers who've been around charge at least $75. Rest assured that it is money well spent. He provides free consultations and can customize an existing mouthpiece to a customers request with absolute artistry and professionalism.
His normal rate of $75 is well worth it if you already have a zinner blank mouthpiece or others that aren't currently to your satisfaction.
2) Zinner based mouthpieces offered by Brad Behn are already customized to the philosophical principles stated previously in this thread. These are the highest quality Eb blanks available today and he provides a lifetime adjustment guarantee. Basically, he does not want any mouthpiece he works on to be sitting in a drawer!
DISCLAIMER: I do refacing work frequently but do not wish to market myself in a thread to conform to the requirements of the bboard. I don't need to have our moderator on my case for doing that. This is part of the reason I stopped short of making specific recommendations in the previous post.
3) I acknowledge that there are many mouthpiece crafstman out there these days. While many of them do great work, most of them operate with different philosophical principles and different designs than what I prefer. To each their own, although I stand by my preferences of philosophy and design.
That's as specific as I can get I think =)
Re: your mouthpieces
-I use play a Zinner 32, 21, 12, 5.5 1.02.
-and an old French blank 34, 22+, 12, 6 1.04
-with cut off V12 3 3/4 and 4's
-on a Buffet RC
-41.5mm barrel pulled out a bit for "true" 440 playing
When using a Bb reed especially, having a longer facing on Eb is generally preferable. Keeping in mind that Bb reeds are designed to vibrate best with the facings they have on their mouthpieces (which are generally longer than those you mentioned). That's not to say that it won't work, it's just more efficient when you have a facing that matches the reed.
Most zinners have similar facings to the one you describe, which are pretty short. While this provides certain advantages, I don't find it to be ideal for flexibility of tone and pitch. The tip openings of the two mouthpieces of yours are about as open as I would go, but I'm convinced that a closer tip opening will give you response and blow through aspects that will improve most mouthpieces' functionality.
Let me know if I need to elaborate on any of these points or if there is a stone left unturned on this topic.
-Nathan
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-04-02 23:45
Eric: Re; Baffle question
This is a good question and a good point brought up by Simon. 13 series vandorens, zinner A blanks, and a variety of other Bb mouthpieces have a much deeper baffle than others. It does provide lower pitch and a "darker" (I hate using that word, but there it is...), and a "rounder" sound. Having the lower portion of the baffle going into the chamber being very "dug out" and low provides the aforementioned characteristics partially by increasing the overall volume of the mouthpiece. Often this is accompanied by a slightly larger bore size which helps to lower the pitch.
It is not safe to assume that Eb mouthpieces follow suit in this manner. The Eb zinners and Vandorens generally don't have these characteristics, nor do most selmers for that manner.
There have been a variety of lengths for Eb mouthpieces (as Simon mentioned) as well as variation in internal design that includes more than just the baffle, but all affecting the volume of the mouthpiece. Variations in production consistency have lead to the same models having wide variations in pitch from mouthpiece to muthpiece. Vintage mouthpieces have been produced in a wide array of styles as well, many having been adjusted by hand adjusting the internal dimensions of the mouthpiece.
I think part of the reason that there aren't many of the "13 series" variety of Eb mouthpieces, especially regarding the baffle, is the question of compromise with adding depth to the upper baffle as well. The upper baffle being higher gives a little bit more sparkle and focus to the sound as well as quicker response (something Eb is always in need of).
Another more logistical point to make about Eb mouthpieces is how many are produced. Obviously, there are many more Bb mouthpieces made than Eb. More Bb players means more demands for different designs and variations to accommodate for the needs of all the different players. So it makes less sense for vandoren, zinner, etc. to produce a wide variety of blanks for an instrument that just won't sell as well. The research and development and investment required to make a new blank is staggering and has to be offset by sales of that product, otherwise it would be cost prohibitive. Being cost-prohibitive is my guess as to the reason there aren't more variations in design.
Additionally, most people playing Eb aren't playing it all the time and are less likely to really understand or care about the equipment questions...they're just trying to learn the instrument. Many accomplished players fall into this category. Not dissimilar to bass, unless you own one or have constant access- there's not going to be much need for an exhaustive equipment search. College students typically don't have the money and are using whatever is in the case provided anyway.
Back to the baffle question. I don't think it's necessarily "bad" to use a lower baffle Eb mouthpiece. I use one. I find the extra volume internally to be beneficial in lowering some of the troublesome notes on the horn and the facing (including tip opening, facing length\curve, rail widths, upper baffle, etc) have been adjusted to not have to compromise anything due to this deeper lower baffle. The Selmer Table (not oval stamp, but table written on the table of the mouthpiece) are incredibly difficult to find for Eb.
Any existing mouthpiece can have this "treatment" done to it by a professional. Although it is something most people don't consider\aren't aware of for Eb, I can imagine many would find benefit from it.
LAST SIDE NOTE: I think it is in every players best interest to have their own Eb mouthpiece\ligature even if they don't own the instrument. Having gone through the process of finding something that works well for you will allow you to keep your sanity when the time comes to play it next!
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2013-04-03 15:48
This is a beast of a topic.
One thought for the OP. I am guessing that the Tosca Eefer is rather new.
Was it this way from the start???
If not, perhaps a factory acoustician should re-check the bore and tone-hole dimensions, including that of the barrel. A minor shift in this most fickle of clarinets (the e-flat vixen in general, I mean, not this particular make) can make a big difference, and this is especially noticeable in the first year of use.
Worth a try. I agree that the choice of mouthpiece is critical.
My own favorite is the old Hite version, but the Vandoren 44 is popular as well
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: EBC
Date: 2013-04-07 20:41
To Nathan: Thanks again, the information you've provided is fascinating.
To Dr. Segal: The Tosca is new, yes, but it was this way from the start. With the 40.5mm barrel, it does in fact play quite well in tune, with the exception of a few notes in the lower chalumeau and clarion registers. Unfortunately, I don't see how these can be corrected without major voicing work, as the tendencies are opposite (sharp in the chalumeau and flat in the clarion). I'm still learning this particular instrument (I played my school's Yamaha YCL681 for quite a while before this), to tell the truth, so I'm hesitant to begin pointing the finger at it without first examining other factors, i.e. me!
Eric
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2013-04-07 23:24
Nathan - Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and knowledge.
Writing clearly and intelligibly is an art. To write comprehensibly about something as abstruse as Eb clarinet mouthpiece design is a double art!
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