 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2012-11-21 20:24
I don't have a direct answer.
However, I have wanted to ask the list for years, what clarinets were played in the Soviet Union all those Cold War years? I assume that the orchestras behind the Iron Curtain were often excellent, and I assume that having Western instruments might have been looked at askance. So, there must have been a healthy instrument industry.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2012-11-21 20:32
The text below seem to be "Leningrad", in Cyrillic letters. So probably at least an instrument from the Soviet era.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2012-11-21 20:55
It does say Leningrad. Don't know what it refers to though...
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-11-21 21:04
> Don't know what it refers to though...
The Leningrad Cowboys? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-11-21 21:09
Ralph Morgan had an infinite stock of stories. Here's one he told me:
In the 1950s, he went to the USSR with a Selmer team to try to create a market. They found players even in the top orchestras using worn-out Albert system clarinets that were nearly unplayable.
They had brought a bunch of plastic Bb Bundys, which they gave to the players, to their great joy. As far as Ralph knew they were still being played in Russian orchestras.
Now in Ralph's stories, he always came out looking like a genius. It's hard to tell where the actual story ends and the embroidery begins. Still, I can believe that during the worst periods, good clarinets were hard to come by in the USSR. A new Bundy could well have been an improvement.
It would be interesting to know whether the Leningrad clarinet plays well, or at all.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-21 22:03
There were loads of these Leningrad clarinets on German eBay (no doubt from the former East Germany) back in the early 2000s - they're made in both German system or Boehm with bakelite bodies with nickel or chrome plated mazak keys or sheet metal keys. Very crude looking and no doubt crude sounding too. They also had a logo like a trident with a triangular base (or a Ш sitting on top of a Δ). There were also oboes from the same company which were of an old German design.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2012-11-22 02:28
This is Russian made clarinet. IMO, the worst clarinet ever made.
Ken Shaw wrote:
>>"They found players even in the top orchestras using worn-out Albert system clarinets that were nearly unplayable."<<
There is no truth in Ralph's stories. Actually the quote above is total BS.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-11-22 02:30
Chris -
I've seen a few of those clarinets, usually branded Wurlitzer. The keywork was astonishingly crude -- pieces of sheet metal bent at 90 degrees and soldered to axles, with holes drilled for the fingertips.
Ken Shaw
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-11-22 09:38
Uebel made both Boehm system and German system clarinets to a high standard (as well as lesser student models) in former East Germany (DDR) and a lot of these ended up in odd corners of the USSR....
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Author: KHandcock
Date: 2012-11-22 14:28
When I worked at a music store, we got to see a flute with the same logo, but the owner didn't know the brand; all he knew was that it was manufactured in East Germany prior the dissolution of the USSR, and he believed that the company who made it manufactured cars from Monday to Thursday, and musical instruments on Friday!
Incidentally, that flute was the scariest musical instrument I've ever seen. It had a wall about 3 mm thick and it was so heavy it felt like it was made of depleted uranium! The springs were equally beefy, so when our repair tech took the keys off there were all these giant spikes sticking out of the thing. We nicknamed it the "safety flute" -- we figured if you were attacked you could fend off your attacker with it!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-11-22 22:13
How did it play?
The last East German flute I saw was a B&S which was owned by a Russian player which had reversed thumb keys and open G#, so a pretty tricky thing to play if you're used to closed G# and the thumb Bb key uppermost. The only others I'd seen before that were an Uebel 'New Metal' aluminium bodied flute and piccolo - both had the black plastic reform lip plate and stopper/crown.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2012-11-23 10:14
„East German“, that is German Democratic Republic until 1990, instrument makers, mainly in the Vogtland area around Markneukirchen, indeed had difficulties maintaining the former quality standards of e.g. Wurlitzer, Neidhardt, Uebel and others after they had been forced into cooperatives or expropriated. Many of the best professionals went to the West. Besides, they had difficulties getting good material. But on no account, as far as I know, they produced the sort of junk (sorry) you are showing here. A Wurlitzer brand on such an instrument must be a fake. In a German forum: http://www.klarinette24.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5267&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=russisch&start=0
a similar “instrument” is described, made by “Orfeo” from Kiew, former Ukrainian SSR before 1990.
M.W.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2012-11-23 10:47
Hello guys,
yes, this looks to be a Soviet clarinet from the 80's or 90's. But the sign "Leningrad" is not the typical brand. Mostly the "Russia-borne" clarinets came from the ORFEO-factory in Kiew, and they didn't work out any cars - only instruments and many of it ;-)
If we forget all the tales above, the real situation in Soviet Union was much more bettern, than the published horror scenario from the Western press... The larger and distinguished orchestras played only well done clarinets from Germany, Great Britain or Japan - like any professional musician all over the world. The Soviet Union was very proud of their musical quality, and they bought many instruments from GDR, from Western Germany and from France, Czechoslovakia etc. Many of the USD or other foreign money reserves were spent for such imported goods - much more, than common in Western countries! Culture was a high good, and they payed a lot for.
Therefore I only can smile about the preconditioned look to Russia of many of the users here ;-)
The fact is: The clarinet shown on the pics is a very worn instrument - better to say scrap.-( The same we can say about the cheap ebonite-models from ORFEO, as I wrote in my thread in Germany.
But this factory (ORFEO Kiew) did some good instruments too, often used in music schools and smaller orchestras in the late Soviet Union or better in the early "new" Russia after 1990. I know this, because Russia is my business area, and I saw some of this good masterpices there in last years.
kindly
Roman
PS: The Ucraine factory is not working any more, but in Petersburg (Leningrad) region a instruments factory should be working and manufacturing guitars, flutes and many more. But more detailed information ist not found about yet ;-/ May be, they produce clarinets too?
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-11-23 12:31
Interesting thread--especially Micahel W and RoBass's posts on the quality of clarinets in Soviet era Russia/the Eastern Bloc.
The old recordings of the Leningrad Phil with Mravinsky should be enough to convince anyone of the quality of the music being made in the Soviet Union during that era, at least in places.
Does anyone have any specifics about certain players? Who played in the Leningrad Phil, and what was their equipment?
As a footnote, Fritz Wurlitzer stayed in the GDR after the Iron Curtain fell, and I've always wondered how many of his instruments ended up being played in major orchestras of the Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-11-23 13:08
I have three GDR-era clarinets (two soprano and one bass) from F. Arthur Uebel and one soprano from G. R. Uebel, and they are very good instruments in every respect. Uebel is not relevant to the original post.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-11-23 17:45
I have many Soviet-era recordings (vinyl LPs, old-school!) on Melodiya/Angel and other labels, of the Moscow and Leningrad Philharmonics and USSR Symphony Orchestra --- no idea what sort of clarinets they were playing on but they always sounded marvelous.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-11-23 20:34
>> I have many Soviet-era recordings (vinyl LPs, old-school!) on Melodiya/Angel and other labels, of the Moscow and Leningrad Philharmonics and USSR Symphony Orchestra --- no idea what sort of clarinets they were playing on but they always sounded marvelous.
>>
Yes, they did -- bearing in mind that splicing, pitch-repair and other miracles of modern engineering were already possible (and common, from what a relative in the broadcasting biz has told me) on mid-century vinyl recordings. There was also a persistent rumor that some of the Melodiya recordings in the 1960s were copyright-violating re-issues of famous performances from the past, with names of fictional soloists and orchestras on the covers.
But those caveats aside, yes, some of those recordings made by well-known (real...) orchestras do have excellent-sounding clarinets on them. I think generalizing about the output of any particular country is dangerous. Even the French produced some bad clarinets along with the fine brand names we talk about most around here -- and today, apparently, even the Chinese produce some good ones.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-11-23 23:23
>>[...]splicing, pitch-repair and other miracles of modern engineering were already possible (and common, from what a relative in the broadcasting biz has told me) on mid-century vinyl recordings.
>>
Which would be no different from techniques used in Western recordings (we could all insert that caveat in our favorite studio recordings, no matter which orchestra).
>>There was also a persistent rumor that some of the Melodiya recordings in the 1960s were copyright-violating re-issues of famous performances from the past [...]
>>
Keep in mind that stereo recordings of the Leningrad Phil from the late 50s/early60s couldn't have drawn from a very distant past (recording technology was changing rapidly, mono to stereo, etc), and there are plenty of airchecks showing the obviously excellent quality of that orchestra and clarinet section. From the recordings of Leningrad from that era, I'd stack them up against any Western orchestra, and can't think of any reason to assume other Russian orchestras weren't performing at extremely high levels as well (why on earth not? They have a long and storied musical tradition). I'm not a big fan of repeating old rumors, unless they're brought forth with new evidence.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-11-24 13:10
>>Keep in mind that stereo recordings of the Leningrad Phil from the late 50s/early60s couldn't have drawn from a very distant past (recording technology was changing rapidly, mono to stereo, etc), and there are plenty of airchecks showing the obviously excellent quality of that orchestra and clarinet section. >>
Of course the Leningrad Philhamonic recordings are for real: That's an important, well- known orchestra. I never said otherwise! The recordings that raise the questions about copyright theft feature names of *unfamiliar* soloists and orchestras on the jackets; and the rumor has nothing to do with the *quality* of the playing but with the provenance of the *recordings* -- with the companies that manufactured and sold the LPs under false names.
Generally I agree about spreading rumors; and I admit that I'm remembering back to the 1960s and 1970s and I don't have Internet links to the information. I shouldn't have brought up the subject (out of context as it is here) without more specific data. However, side-by-side comparisons substantiated these stories. I participated in one such comparison when I lived in Atlanta between the summer of 1974 and the summer of 1975. The participants were my husband's piano quintet, with spouses and partners. I reported the test here as a rumor because I can't recall the details of which legitimate recording we identified as identical to a Russian-published recording from the 1960s, issued with mystery names, but there was no doubt in our minds that they were the same recording. The cellist at the session, Bill Gripp, was a pro music critic. He reported the test to the company that published the legitimate recording.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2012-11-24 23:49
Glad we're on the same page about the orchestras, Lelia. That's really all I was concerned to clarify--that these were top notch orchestras, not to be written off by selective discussions of recording technology or rumors. Your earlier post wasn't very clear as to what you were addressing, how far you meant your points to be taken, or why you were bringing in the topic of copyrights, etc.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: kenb
Date: 2012-11-25 00:40
Valery Bezruchenko was a solo clarinet in the Leningrad Phil. from 1961 till I-don't-know-when. According to Pamela Weston in her second 'Clarinet Virtuosi' book, he played German system Koktans as had his predecessor.
I also remember reading somewhere that Leopold Wlach (solo clarinet in the Vienna Phil. before Alfred Prinz) played Koktans.
MarboroughMan - I met a Russian player here in Australia who had played in military bands back in the Soviet era. He saw I had a Wurlitzer and told me he had one too, a Reform-Boehm with low Eb, made by Fritz!
Post Edited (2012-11-25 06:07)
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2012-11-26 12:01
Ahem, what was the topic of this thread...?! ;-)
Yes, of course the Russians (and Soviets before) have many musicians of top level. But the question was: What kind of instrument is shown?
Answer: A cheap, early post-Soviet (I would bet on this) or late Soviet instrument of scrap level - made for the dumb mass of money-less folks. This is a simple, not well crafted industrial product from ebonite. Mostly this "plastics" were made from horrible ingredients (revulcanized fibre reinforced rubber waste f.i.) and smelling like a chemical plant. The keywork is weak, leaking and sharp edged, etc. etc.
I got one of it two years ago - and spent it to the museum ;-) It was unplayable at most, smelling like chemical waste and sounding like a squeezing chicken ;-)
But I'm sure: No one professional musician in Russia has blown any note on this... ;-)Therefore they use(d) only well done instruments from allover the world - from Soviet Union and Russia too...
kindly
Roman
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Author: Brent
Date: 2012-11-27 16:38
I have a few reeds with the same brand name on them. They were given to me when i was in St Peterburg by someone who found out i am a clarinetist and thought i could use them. They are the most unplayable reeds i have ever tried.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2012-11-27 18:24
FWIW I met the Moscow State Symphony Orchestra's clarinet section on tour in the mid 80th and they all played reasonably new Buffés. To my surprise at the time, since I had heard rumours about how bad instruments they had to their disposal.
Alphie
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-11-29 04:20
David Spiegelthal wrote....
"I have three GDR-era clarinets (two soprano and one bass) from F. Arthur Uebel and one soprano from G. R. Uebel, and they are very good instruments in every respect. Uebel is not relevant to the original post."
I mentioned Uebel only to dispell the myth, presented and debated in earlier postings in this thread, that there were no good quality instruments available to musicians in the former USSR. Several Uebel clarinets have turned up in NZ (I have one) brought here by former orchestral musicians from Russia and the Ukraine.
dn
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2012-12-17 02:08
Cool!
What a great resource all of you are. That the players of the great orchestras of the Soviet Union used whatever instruments necessary for them to play well, makes sense!
WT
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The Clarinet Pages
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Love that film!
