 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2012-10-13 19:41
My 44-year old R13 (idle for many of those years) plays pretty well following a good overhaul, but middle B doesn't speak easily, and when it does it growls a bit.
My technician has gone over the horn well--No pad leaks, or other mechanical problems. He is concerned about changes in the bell's bore or resonance. He also notes that although my overall bore has improved with 6 months of playing and humidification, it is still somewhat "tight".
Does anyone have experience with this type of problem? Suggestions for diagnosis or treatment? It's only the one note--The rest of the instrument is fine.
Thanks.
Amateur musician, retired physician
Delaware Valley Wind Symphony, clarinet 1
Bucks County Symphony Orchestra, clarinet 2 (sub)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-10-13 20:11
I cannot say that sounds like anything I've heard of. I'd check (yourself) to make sure everything seals ok. Firstly, turn the top and bottom joints askew so that the bridge doesn't line up, and play the "B" that way. This at least rules out misadjustment here. Then to the old suction test on both the top and bottom joints independently (cover keys with appropriate fingers; stop bottom end with the other palm; suck on top end). The system should seal as if you did the same thing to a coke bottle. Also make sure you do a positive pressure test on the bottom joint. If the "Eb/Ab" key pops up too easily, this could also take away from the steadiness of sound at the bottom of the horn.
I'd like to hear what others say about this. But this is the first I've heard of a "tight bore."
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-10-13 20:37
To be sure we're understanding correctly - are you talking about "long" B - B5 (using the reference at the top of this page) - middle line of the staff?
Are any other notes acting "funky?" What about the bore has actually "improved with 6 months of playing and humidification?" I, too, wonder what a "tight" bore is and what does it feel like anywhere else on the instrument besides the long B. Do you mean the instrument (whether or not it has anything to do with the bore) is less resistant after 6 months?
When long B doesn't speak (I'm not sure what you mean by "growling") it's nearly always because air is leaking somewhere - either from a pad or from around one of your fingers. Unless the problem is with a reed that closes because of something that happens in your embouchure as you go over the break.
Which suggests some further questions: (1) Is there any consistent circumstance when the "growl" happens (and can you describe it more clearly)? Is the poor response constant or only intermittent (if intermittent, under what circumstances)? (2) Have you asked anyone else to try the clarinet to see if they have the same problem? (3) Do you find anything amiss when you try Paul's suggestions for leak testing? (4) How does low E3 (the 12th below B) play? How are F3 and C5?
One other problem occurs to me that might (rarely) cause a poor response and maybe even a kind of growl on long B - but only after you've been playing for a few minutes. If water is collecting in the register tube, it can cause both of these problems. Blowing the water out of the tube and swabbing the instrument should solve that.
Karl
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2012-10-14 18:15
Thanks for your responses. Yes, the B in middle of staff.
The rest of the instrument seems to play well. I have indeed had others play it, with similar result. It's a fuzzy tone, that I have to push a bit on, not a nice easy-playing and pure B. The low E does not seem to be affected, surprisingly. The problem is constant, not intermittent.
Yes, overall, the clarinet is less resistant than when I started playing again 6 months ago. In terms of data: back then, the measurement of the bore diameter was smaller than is typical for an R13, and has opened up somewhat since, but my technician still says it's small.
I guess I need to consider whether something is partially blocking my register tube (lint? Small insect? I can't imagine what could get in there!)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-10-14 20:58
Try removing the register key and play the throat Bb. If it sounds better, it will be the amount of lift of the register key. Insufficient lift can cause the problem you describe. While its off, run a pipe cleaner through the register tube.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-10-14 22:04
Fuzziness and resistance on B5 could be caused by a problem in the bell. The easiest way to rule that in or out would be to try a couple of different bells if you (or your tech) have them available. I wouldn't have him or anyone else try to ream or otherwise alter the bell without first finding if other bells affect the problem one way or the other.
Given all you've written, it doesn't sound like anything obvious or simple to fix. If your tech is competent, he/she would have the best shot at diagnosing it.
Karl
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2012-10-14 22:23
Thanks for all the replies. I tried all the suggested tests without finding anything, so I will try switching bells with some friends who have R13's.
Again, thanks for the suggestions and time.
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Author: interd0g
Date: 2012-10-20 01:24
For what it's worth, I played a 1960's R13 from new .I had two refits in the last five years in an effort to get it to respond as I remember it, one by well known self proclaimed eccentric genius, but it won't come back.
The long B is the worst, making transitions around the bridge very difficult.
As a daytime engineer I hate invoking anything I can't measure, but I suspect it's "blown out"
I got a new Leblanc and it was like the Road to Damascus.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2012-10-20 02:57
What is a "refit?" Has anyone else proclaimed him a genius (eccentric or not)? In other words, if these were overhauls, were they done by competent repair people or mystics?
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-10-20 03:58
Don't abandon your old Buffet until you tone holes checked for plaque buildup. This problem is covered under the topic of Blowout, and much of the discussion is on the Klarinet list. In particular, Alan Swiney wrote, at http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/1999/06/000791.txt:
"Lets talk about the swab! The swab is used to clean the BORE! Right? The swab never makes contact with the tone hole wall or undercutting. Usually when a clarinetist has finished playing, they must blow the water
from the tone holes or used a pipe cleaner. The pipe cleaner only gets the cylinder clean but the undercutting is left untouched. As the swab is pulled though the bore, lint or fibers from the tight swab will build up in the bottom section of the tone holes, especially with cotton swabs.( I recommend silk swabs as they shed less). This fiber build up acts as a filter. As saliva and condensation runs down the bore of the horn, this fiber filter sucks it right into the tone hole.
"Next the Moisture dries and leaves natural minerals like calcium in the fiber filter. Over a period of time the a crusty plaque will form in the tone made of lint, fibers and calcium. This Build up is very similar in appearance to calcius or dental plaque. Eventually this plaque will decrease the tone hole volume and occlude the undercutting thus making the clarinet play in a "blown out" manner. Each month I remove a tablespoon of plaque from or local symphony clarinetist's instrument.
"Chronic water gurgles are also a sign of fiber build up or tone hole plaque. I originally discovered tone hole plaque while doing medical studies on clarinets. I was X-raying some of the clarinets that I inherited from my
Repair teacher W. Hans Moennig. These white rings kept appearing at the apex of the undercutting with a resolution very similar to human bone. It was quite confusing to me because I could not find foreign material via the bore or tone hole cylinder. I used a proctoscope to view the undercutting and there it was Big as Day, a I.5 mm protrusion into the air path. At that point I design a cleaning tool that matched the tone hole profile. The tool was designed to reach the hidden section of the undercutting that the swab never cleans. After carefully removing the old plaque build up from the tone holes the instrument was much more resonant.
"In addition to improving the pitch and timbre, Removing swab and fiber plaque can also reduce wood cracks though tone holes. Such cracks are very common on the top joint side B and Bb trillers, throat A, and the Left hand G# hole. If you have a new clarinet, now is the time to clean the plaque from the tone holes."
Ken Shaw
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