 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-09-24 12:14
I have just bought, and received, a pair of R13s (1974)
Both have "UK" stamped just below the Buffet logo of the UJ.
The only mention of this from searches suggests that this means that they were made to A=440 and for the UK market (this from a website of a company that sells many high end instruments in UK, and mentioned in one of their adverts).
I know there are many on this board well versed in the lore of Buffet instruments. I wonder if I can tap the collective knowledge and ask what you believe the "UK" stamp to signify.
Another question
The A has serial 144xxx and the Bb has serial B143xxx (on UJs and LJs)
Another web search does not yield anything to say why the Bb serial starts with a B. I would like to think that the instruments were factory matched, and the B shows which joints are the Bb. But that is just my imagination.
I confess never to have strayed to R13s before, having remained faithful to my Leblanc Opus over all these years, with my faith tested occasionally (and seriously) by my Couesnon Monopole (oh, and a pair of FB Selmer CTs). This means I have only the internet as my guide when it comes to serial numbers, and I had not expected to see the B at the beginning of the Bb serial number.
Apologies if this has been covered in previous threads, in which case my not finding those threads is down to lack of searching skill, but not lack of effort!
Chris
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-09-24 16:00
I'm sure I've read (probably on this Board - try a search) that the UK stamp was introduced as a marketing device by Buffet at the time the RC was developed (1975). The reasoning was that that the RC was more free-blowing than the R13, and thus thought to be more similar to the instruments UK players were used to playing. If this is so, then your instruments are early RCs, not R13s. The easiest way to tell is put a finger up the bell: the R13 has a "choke" where the diameter
at the end of the bottom joint is wider than the entrance to the bell, whereas the RC has no discontinuity in bore diameter at this point.
In any case, the UK label doesn't relate to 440 pitch. All Buffets are supposed to be 440, unless there is an "F" before the serial number, which denotes 442 pitch.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-24 20:21
I've seen RC UK clarinets from the '70s, but never R13 UK.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-25 00:42
The RC UKs I've seen had the cursive RC logo and the UK stamped below it, but that's the first time I've seen just the UK stamp.
What diameter is the bore at the middle tenon? R13s are 14.65mm and I think the RC is 14.75mm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-09-25 08:43
The lack of the RC logo could be explained by the date of 1974, since it was only about the time that the RC was officially introduced. I believe that Buffet did quite a bit of experimenting with an R13 alternative before they settled on the RC, and there were RC forerunners labelled S1 and BC20, so I could believe that the plain UK label might have been another one of this sort. I also have seen instruments with both RC and UK stamps, but I suppose this could be a transitional case?
Still, it's the bore that counts. I tried to measure the bottom end of my R13, and got 16.70 mm for the exit diameter of the lower joint. But I couldn't get inside the bell to get an accurate measurement of the choke. Feeling by finger, I'd say the step is half to one mm. I also just discovered on this board the statement that the RC is 3mm longer than the R13.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-09-25 08:58
All good information, thanks. On a search I also found that:
"The S1, Continentale and BC20, which became the RC, were all attempts to make darker, more focused sounding clarinets"
Does anybody know how these models were marked on the instrument? Or bore characteristics?
I will do some measuring when I get home tonight
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-25 09:12
I think I may have seen S1 clarinets with the UK stamp on them as well - hope I'm not imagining it!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-09-25 09:29
There is a pair of S1s on this website
http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/Ingamells-S1s.html
I can make out from the photos that one of them appears to be stamped UK on the top joint.
Post Edited (2012-09-25 09:34)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-25 09:52
Thanks for that - I knew I'd seen one but thought my mind was playing tricks on me!
http://www.clarinetsdirect.biz/Ingamells-S1s.html
I worked on a friend's R13 from the mid '80s which had a top joint transplant carried out at the B&H factory in London. How could I tell? The serial number was stamped on the top joint above the speaker bush like it is on B&H clarinets and the number stamps used were the same style (font or whatever) as B&H clarinets instead of by the C#/G# tonehole or with the more decorative style number stamps Buffet use.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2012-09-25 12:22
From some notes that I have the distance of the mid point of the register vent from the top of the joint (excluding the tenon) shows a significant difference between the BC-20 and R13. unfortunately no notes for an early RC. I do have a modern RC Prestige I could check plus what I mentioned above.
reg vent
BC-20 15.6mm
1965
R-13 18.95
1969
R13 19
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2012-09-25 12:27)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-09-25 12:55
More measuring from me, then, when I get home tonight.
The only other reference I could see to the UK stamp was on another couple of clarinets being sold on the website just mentioned, but they are all RCs and I was reticent to post a link to them as they were actively being sold and so might incur the wrath of moderators...
But RCs are clearly marked as such, and the S1 I think was marked as such, but difficult to make out on my phone screen. The S1 in the advert was 1973, so a contempory of mine.
When the RC and S1 serials are searched on the Buffet website, do the results show their model name?
I will do the measurements tonight and report back, but it is looking more likely that mine are R13s and marked UK, and that not many are around.
If that is case, it still begs the question, what does the UK stamp actually signify, and that goes for the stamp seen on S1, RC or R13?
And still no light on the B prefix to the Bb serial number
Thanks for all your input, I am learning a heck of alot about Buffet instruments!
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-25 13:09
I think the Buffet site gives the model number as opposed to the actual model name as we know it - usually a four-figured number, so an RC Bb will be 1111, RC A is 1211, RC with an Ab/Eb lever is 1113, RC Prestige is 1106L, an R13 Bb is 1131, A is 1231 and R13 Prestige Bb is 1133L.
There is logic to these numbers, I'm sure with more time to study them I'll work it out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-09-25 13:39
The buffet web site did not give any codes, just R13 for the Bb and La for the A, both followed by Am?rique
As for the codes, This is what I gleaned in 2009 pasted below:
Author: Chris J (---.range81-156.btcentralplus.com - ISP in Bristol, B7 United Kingdom)
Date: 2009-01-27 18:17
I have posted this before, so apologies for repetition here
Looks like 16 relates to Key of C.....
***************************************************
Below is a collation of information from the BB regarding common info on Buffet site
Model designation n�1 indicates polycylindrical bore
Am�rique appears to be the designation for an R13 made for American market
It looks like that if there are no other codes, it is assumed to be a R13
Decoding the letter and number sequence
For a sequence such as BCxxyy(c)-d-e ...............
BC = Buffet Crampon
xx
This specifies the key, with
11 = Bb (old code, SiB=Bb)
12 = A (old code, La=A)
15 = Eb (old code, MiB=Eb)
17 = F
yy
This specifies the model, with
02 = E13
12 = RC
31 = R13
83 = Prestige RC Bass to Eb
93 = Prestige RC Bass to low C
23 = Basset
c
Optional code, meaning
G = greenline
L = Left hand Eb lever
d
Specifies key plating, where
02 = silver
05 = nickle
e
Specifies pitch
0 = 440
2 = 442
4 = 444
So
BC1131(L)-02-0 equals a Bb (11) R13 (31) with a LH Eb lever (L) with silver plated keys (02) tuned to 440 (0)
Information attributed to Jack Kissinger and Francois Kloc
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-09-25 14:26
In fact, these were sold as BC1102-2 and BC1102L-2 which translates as 2 Bb E13s - one having a L hand Eb lever
So the seller had plugged the serials into the buffet website and advertised them as the first thing that came up.
Clearly the picture showed an A and Bb, and the second choice of R13s in the serial look up was closer to the mark, but the labelling made them a bit of a bargain...
Chris
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-09-25 18:03
So home and measuring...
Just for clarity, these are the measurements of the Bb, and I will take measurements on the dimensions as they appear in the thread
Diameter of bore at middle tenon - this lower bore of the upper joint
14.50
so less than either of Chris P's figures (R13 14.65; RC 14.75)
Exit diameter of lower joint. Hard to measure as there is a flare out there
22.30
Much larger than John Peacock's measurement16.70, though the flare may confound the measurement
Mid reg vent to top of joint, excluding tenon
18.75
Closer to Steve's R13
Steve - if you have an R13 of the same year as mine, then a few choice measurements from your for comparison should clinch it.
Are there any distinguishing key work features that would help, so I can take other pictures?
I hope people like Jack Kissinger or Francois Klos might wander by this thread, to see if they have any views about what the UK stamp was all about, as I think we are going to prove my instruments are R13s but not get any further about the UK stamp. I assume it is for the same reason as the UK stamp on the RCs and S1s - but why?
And the B prefix to the serial?....
Are Buffet Company responsive to email questions like this?
Chris
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2012-09-26 07:46
Sorry, don't know what happened with my exit bore measurement: maybe the calipers weren't zeroed, and I failed to notice. Anyway, the correct figure for my R13 is 21.70 mm, which sounds significantly narrower than yours, so it's not clear the RC hypothesis is ruled out. Perhaps an easier way to tell is just via the thickness of the wood at the end of the tenon: because the RC flares more, the end of the tenon looks much thinner than an R13 - you can easily see the difference by eye (do you know anyone with an R13?).
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-09-26 14:35
My S1 Bb (1972) lists on the Buffet site as an "S1 Amerique"and the above advertised A clarinet (1973) lists as "S1 La avec leviers Mib" however the 1980 Bb advertised shows up as BC1111 so perhaps Buffet changed their listing policy between these years.
My 1972 S1 A shows up as a BC 1102 made in 2001 - so much for their accuracy!
Have just noticed that one of the 2 instruments advertised, the later 1980 A clarinet, has the UK stamp on it but the 1973 Bb does not.
The advertised S1s are I recall nice instruments - some 20 years ago my 2nd in a pit orchestra played on them - she had borrowed them from her then teacher who I know died recently.
I suspect that the UK stamp has more to do with "marketing" than anything really technical. I think it was John Coppen who some years ago told me that Buffet were making quite a push to convert the UK players of B&H clarinets to move to Buffet. John was heavily involved with Buffet UK for many years.
Even many Yamaha clarinets imported here (mainly student models) have had a UK stamp for some years now but the only technical difference I know of is that they supply a 6C rather than 4C mouthpiece.
Post Edited (2012-09-26 15:27)
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