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 older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: gjohnston 
Date:   2012-07-19 22:23

Hi all,

this is my very first time posting, so be gentle.

I have bought a few older intermediate level clarinets and refurbished them for the joy of making something good work again. I am just learning. I have had some good luck with Selmer Signet Specials and a Signet Soloist. This summer I have a few old Evette Schaeffers to work on. I have enjoyed immensely the expertise available on this board as I have worked with these horns.

I also have Evette-Schaeffer Master Model. From what I can figure out by reading all of the opinions, it will date to somewhere around 1954. I have read all the debates about blemished R13s and such. The horn I have has a S/N 49xxx, no letter prefix. It does have the A and G sharp key sharing a post. The wood on the lower joint, underneath the right hand pinky keys (C, C#, B) is cut out.

Now, when I bought this, it came with the keys off, all in a jumble in the case. The owner said all the keys were there. Cool....I can repad and put keys back on. I actually enjoyed re-surfacing the wood and watch the beauty of the wood come out again using micro mesh and such....so, now, ready to put the thing back together, and of course, problems begin.

First, a couple of broken springs. I had no trouble punching the stub of the first one out, and then replacing it. The second broken stub won't back out of for the life of me. Any ideas how to remove it.

Second, the previous owner was correct, all the keys were there, but.....it looks like my 500 pound aunt sat on the throat tone A-G sharp assembly....do I just carefully use needle nose to bend back into shape so it with align with the holes?

Lastly, if I were to need missing rods, pivots screws and a post, is there somewhere I could find these goodies. When comparing to regular Evette Schaeffers from this time period, the posts and keys are not the same....this master modele has key work similar to an R13....more delicate than the Evetter Schaffer (which could be actually have been made by Malerne, while this particular Master Model might have been made by Buffet....just piecing together the stories from other threads) So, would old R13 rods, screws and posts be what I should be looking for.

Thanks...I love this board!

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 Re: older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: SteveG_CT 
Date:   2012-07-19 22:47

Replacement parts are going to be hard to come by. Your best bet would be to either find a donor instrument for the missing post and pivot screws or to ask some repair techs if they have any spares in their junk drawers.

Missing rods are easily replaced by fabricating new ones. Just measure the diameter of the rods you have and order a piece of hinge screw rod of the appropriate size from a place like Votaw tool. You will also need to order a threading die of the appropriate size and a jeweler's saw to cut the new screw slot.

As for the post with the broken spring stub stuck in it, you have a couple of options. Ideally you would like to punch it out with a very small drift (a watchmakers staking set works well for this if you have access to one). Alternatively you can soak the post in a solution of alum and water. Using alum will dissolve the spring without hurting the post but will take a lot of time (a few hours if the solution is heated to boiling, a few days if left at room temperature). I recently had to use alum to remove a spring stub on an HN White Silver King clarinet as you cannot remove the posts on those clarinets.



Post Edited (2012-07-19 22:48)

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 Re: older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2012-07-20 04:59

For rod screws I do what SteveG suggested, though I'd rather check the rod in the actual key instead of measuring. If you measure and can't actually check (e.g. if you buy online) then I would probably get the two closest sizes.

For pivot screws you can try repair suppliers like Ferree's Tools or Allied Supply, they have many. Old Buffet pivot screws (which they have) might work. I don't think they specify the exact model (but can't remember for sure).

For the post it might be easiest to ask the same suppliers if they have anything or if they know how to get one. Maybe a post from a current model will work as is or with only slight modification and then you can probably get one, maybe from Buffet.

Re the bent G# key, mostly use pliers to straighten it. I rarely use needle nose pliers for that. It depends what part is bent, whether it's the hinge, the key arm, the key cup, etc. Depending on which part is bent, I mostly use parallel flat jaw plaiers, swdeging pliers and a few specialized home-made pliers. If you give more details abotu what part exactly is bent then I can explain more.

For the stuck spring, does it stick at all from the post or is it flush with the post? There are several types of spring pliers for that.
For ones that are sticking a little, there's a split jaw that supports from the other side and a (more or less) regular jaw that is pushing the spring.
If it is flush, the pliers are the same except the pushing jaw has a pointed pin to push the stuck spring.

Another possibility is to use patent pliers (not sure of the English name, but thye are the ones that grip very strong when closing and you don't have to keep pressing) to hold either the spring sticking out or a punch (can use a new spring) and tap on it, while supporting the other side of the post with something like a block of wood (or remove the post if you can). It's a bit cumbersome but can be done by one person.

You can use alum as a last resort but I've never had to for a stuck spring.

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 Re: older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: gjohnston 
Date:   2012-07-21 19:14

Thank you both......like I said, this is something I am new at, but love the idea of making the old stuff work and shine again.

A question for SteveG....how do I know what size threading die to get. I have a micrometer on order...will that give me the right rod size, and do I order the die based on that? I can't do Clarnibass's suggestion about testing rod diameter first, so his idea of 'bracketing" the size is the route I will have to go.

Clarnibass...the broken spring is flush...of course...and this broken spring looks like someone had previousaly "squished" the spring hole...it is not symetrical. It is also part of the damaged A-G# assembly...it honestly looks likes someone had just hammered (exaggeration) the stuff to fit. The A G# damage is to the cups, and the A arm no longer meets its respective key hole. I will try to round up some of the tools you suggest, especially the split jaw pliers...where do you recommend I find and economical but functional pair.

Again, thanks so much. All the rest of the horns have been pretty easy, but the one that is potentionally the best (and the one I laid out the most money for) has presented nothing but problems.

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 Re: older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: bill28099 
Date:   2012-07-21 19:53

The "Old Buffet" pivot screws sold by Ferree's are for their clarinets made in the 1980s and early 1990s. I know for a fact that they will not fit my 1954 Buffet or models that I own from the early 1900s. Does anyone know when after 1954 Buffet changed the thread pitch of the pivots or where one might obtain some of the truly old ones.

A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.

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 Re: older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: ww.player 
Date:   2012-07-21 20:17

With the shared post and cut outs under the RH pinky keys, what you have is one of the rare E&S's that really is an R13 reject. It's pretty valuable, as in $600 to $800, in top shape. It's a pro horn of a vintage that many prefer, so you may want to have it professional fixed and use student horns (like Evettes) to learn repair on.

That being said, the spring pliers with pin are a must if you're going to be doing repair. They will save you a whole lot of time and headaches. Also, make sure the pliers you use to bend keys have a smooth face in order to not score the metal.

When a key with a rod in the middle gets bent, it becomes a real mess. Rods are very easy to straighten using either a dremel and your smooth face pliers or even a vice with smooth facing plates. The problem is that the tube the rod passes through can never be bent back into round. Many repairmen will have several dozen sizes of drill bits and redrill the tube to the proper bore after straightening the key as much as they can. After straightening, you can also lap the tube using the straightened rod and lapping compound. This is usually very time consuming, but if you do it using your dremel and a good lapping compound, it shouldn't take too long. Just be careful when lapping with a dremel as the key will get really hot. I stop often and hold the key under running water to keep it cool.

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 Re: older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2012-07-22 04:46

>> I can't do Clarnibass's suggestion about testing rod diameter first <<

One rod is about $3 (about half a meter long). What I recommend is to measure with a micrometer and then buy the two closest sizes, if you are ordering online, on the phone, etc. If you are going to a store then just take the key with you and check. If you are considering buying a die, some pliers and ordfered a micrometer, then an extra $3 is almost nothing in comparison...

>> how do I know what size threading die to get <<

Maybe someone remembers the size of this clarinet model. You can buy a thread measuring tool. Preferably two, one for American threads and one for millimeter threads. Ferree's Tools has good ones but you can probably find them in many stores (search online). It's important to get ones with the right sizes of threads so it's a good idea to buy from a woodwind instrument repair supplier like Ferree's Tools.

There is another way that most of the times works for finding the thread size. You need a camera with a Macro mode for this. Take a photo as big and sharp as possible, along with the diameter of the threads (which is often smaller than the rod diameter itself). It is then usually possible to find out the thread size. You can try yourself if you know how or I can try for you if you want.

I can also email you a chart with the more common woodwind thread sizes, then you can narrow down the options based on diameter.

>> the broken spring is flush...of course... <<

Well, I asked just because most of the time it breaks with a little stub left and there are different ways to remove them.
If it's flush, the best tool is the pliers such as these http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-pl104.html
They even have a video on that page that explains how to use them (remember to push with the screw where the spring is broken) and these particular ones look good to me.
Sometimes the whole thing is too messed up and even these pliers won't work, but this is rare.

For installing the new spring, or removing a broken spring where there's still a stub left, use pliers like these http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-pl100.html
These look decent though Ferree's Tools, Boehm Tool and other places might have even better ones IMO (but also more expensive).

>> The A G# damage is to the cups, and the A arm no longer meets its respective key hole. <<

If the cup itself is distorted (i.e. not in relation to its arm) then most common to put it against flat steel surface and tap it flat. You can also use big flat jaw pliers in a controlled way to try to see if you can do anything with them.

For any bending that involved the key arm, the most useful pliers to me are the small parallel flat jaw pliers, like these http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-pl250.html

Also helpful are duckbill pliers, like these http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/tool-pl201.html

By the way if the key cup is not aligned with the tone hole length-wise, then either the key arm is severely bent, or that's just the way it was made. I've seen old Buffets (even their top model at the time) with this problem.

Here are a few more pliers I use to align key cups over tone holes. The first two are home-made. The third is modified from a pair of Ferree's pliers that is mostly useless without this modification. The first two are use most woodwinds while the last mostly on saxophones.







Here is a photo of the spring pliers (one for installing and removing stubs and two types of pliers for removing springs broken flush with the post).





Post Edited (2012-07-22 04:46)

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 Re: older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: Tony F 
Date:   2012-07-22 08:11

Clarnibass,
It wasn't my question, but if you're going to email that thread chart, could you add my name to the list? It will save me light years of research.

Regards,
Tony F.

Tony F.

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 Re: older Master Model Buffet parts
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2012-07-22 10:26

I can if you give me your email.

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