 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jo4razorbacks
Date: 2012-04-09 17:14
My son's clarinet instructor has a friend that is trying to sell a Buffet Evett master's model. I'm totally clueless as to how much he should be selling it for, but he is asking $925, down from $950. My son will be in the 9th grade and is currently renting a Buffet from the local music store after his cheaper model, a previous beginner rent to own purchase basically bit the dust.
I'm requesting more specifics on it, as I haven't seen it, just my son has played it at a lesson. All I know is that it's an overhauled Buffet Evett master's model. Would it even be something I should consider? My son isn't a professional nor will most likely ever be, but I know he needs something better of his own to play when he goes to high school next year.
I'll update if he sends me more specifics. Thank you.
Joanna D. Metzger
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Author: jo4razorbacks
Date: 2012-04-09 17:30
I have the serial number but as far as he knows, it's from the 70's, was purchased for $750 and then refurbished. It has a few scratches, but no cracks or chips. Apparently, he trusts the seller as opposed to what you get off of e-Bay.
Joanna D. Metzger
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-09 17:37
In my opinion $925 is excessively high for an Evette Master Model. It was a pretty good upper-intermediate model when new but that was likely close to 60 years ago. I would put it's current value even in pristine, freshly-overhauled condition at more like $400-$500. People tend to try to overcharge for them based on a largely debunked rumor that some of them were actually Buffet R13's that were rejected for cosmetic reasons.
At the same price range you would be better off buying a new Ridenour 576BC ($960) or a much newer used intermediate/professional model.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-04-09 17:37
Some of these were excellent. Lee Gibson said they were very similar to the r13s in acoustic design, and that was the experience I had with with mine.
richard smith
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Author: jo4razorbacks
Date: 2012-04-09 17:44
Thank you. Like I mentioned, I am clueless. The instructor was excited about the Evette because of the sound properties. He said we could buy a new E11 for the same price but the metal bends too often. He said he could keep looking but it would most likely be a used R13 for b/n $1500-2000. Gasp! I don't think my son needs a R13, as I don't even know if he's going to stick with it, although I hope he does.
Joanna D. Metzger
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-09 18:05
jo4razorbacks wrote:
> Thank you. Like I mentioned, I am clueless. The instructor
> was excited about the Evette because of the sound properties.
> He said we could buy a new E11 for the same price but the metal
> bends too often. He said he could keep looking but it would
> most likely be a used R13 for b/n $1500-2000. Gasp! I don't
> think my son needs a R13, as I don't even know if he's going to
> stick with it, although I hope he does.
>
If you can play test it before buying and verify that it actually does have good intonation and a good sound then it might be worth buying but I still think that price is way too high for an intermediate model of that vintage.
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Author: TianL
Date: 2012-04-09 19:02
yeah it's way too much. with 925 you can purchase an R13 made from that period of time.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-04-09 19:18
There are better pre-owned clarinets available today for far less money. For example, you should be able to get a truly fine professional Leblanc clarinet for much less than $925.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-09 20:16
Ursa wrote:
> There are better pre-owned clarinets available today for far
> less money. For example, you should be able to get a truly
> fine professional Leblanc clarinet for much less than $925.
Agreed. I personally don't think any used intermediate clarinet that is more than 10 years old should command a price of more than $500.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-04-09 21:32
I bought a Selmer Signet for $100 on auction. After a good overhaul, it really plays like a fine clarinet and my granddaughter has been playing it for two years.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2012-04-10 00:16
Two of my younger students recently (within the past two months) purchased used R-13 clarinets in the $1200-$1800 range. The more expensive ones were in better condition and needed less immediate maintenance, of which I personally performed to help their families save money.
I was also lucky to obtain an overhauled Yamaha YCL-34 for a few hundred bucks from Charl Van Schoick (clarinuts.com) for another student. With the addition of a Muncy synthetic barrel, it performs like a champ.
I wouldn't pay more than $500 for a used Evette or E11, period.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-04-10 04:59
From the 1930's (or perhaps even earlier) through the 1970s and into the 1980s, Buffet labeled its wooden student model clarinet the "Evette" and its wooden intermediate model the "Evette and Schaeffer." This similarity in names has led to a lot of confusion over the years and many people, including folks on this Board who ought to know better by now (Richard), have failed to recognize the difference and/or assumed that the two models are the same. You have identified the clarinet as an "Evette Master Model." For the record, the model Lee Gibson was talking about was undoubtedly the Evette and Schaeffer. According to Buffet, the Evette and Schaeffer (E&S) was made in the same factory as Buffet's professional clarinets by the same craftsmen so it should come as no big surprise that a good one would demonstrate similarities to an R13. While there were some design differences, the biggest difference between the E&S and the R13 was the amount of hand finishing. (For those who have followed similar threads in the past, let's ignore the alleged anomalies --they aren't relevant during the likely time period in question here.)
Also according to Buffet, Evettes were produced in a separate factory by craftsmen supervised by experienced Buffet people. More differences in design, a different factory and different labor force.
An Evette Master Model could have been made as late as 1978 so it could be somewhat less than 40 years old, not 60, but that's still pretty old as student model clarinets go. While there are earlier E&S Master Models, beginning around 1961-63, Buffet began to use the "Master Model" designation to identify production Evette and Schaeffer clarinets that performed extremely well on final inspection. I don't know when Buffet started using the "Master Model" designation for Evettes but, at some point, they did (I own one from circa 1976) and while I have never seen anything specific from Buffet to back this up, I think it's safe to say that the Master Model Evette was simply a production model Evette that performed particularly well on its final inspection. In other words the "Master Models" were not specific models or even dedicated production runs, they were simply (good) anomalies that turned up during regular production runs and were discovered at the end of the line.
FWIW, the E&S was a higher-end model. The Evette was predecessor to the E11 and is a similar level instrument. The E&S was predecessor to the E13.
It might be useful to establish, given the amount of confusion that has existed, whether the clarinet is truly an Evette Master Model or whether it might be an Evette and Schaeffer Master Model. All other things equal, the latter would be worth more. However, when you start talking about clarinets this old, condition is a much more important factor. Over this length of time, a lot of bad things can have happened.
In any case, I totally agree with Steve that $925 is far too much to pay for an Evette Master Model from the 1970s. It is far too much to pay, even if the clarinet is actually an Evette & Schaeffer Master Model from that time period. I have seen recently on eBay, considerably newer R13s in apparently good condition, selling for $1,100 - $1,200. IMO, fresh off a professional overhaul by a reputable technician, an Evette Master Model from the 1970s might be worth $350-$400; an Evette and Schaeffer Master Model might be worth around $100 more.
You say the seller paid $750 for the clarinet and had it overhauled. It sounds like the seller thinks s/he should be able to recover most of the money s/he he has in the instrument. Be aware, however, that clarinets are more like automobiles than like fine wine. They don't mature and grow better (up to a limit) with age. They depreciate. I don't know when the teacher's friend purchased the clarinet or when it was overhauled but, at $750, the friend certainly overpaid. I see no reason why you should pay for his/her mistake. Also, unless you can evaluate the skills of the person who did the overhaul, you can't really know how much value that has added. The truth is that what the friend paid (including the overhaul) is irrelevant. What is relevant is what you would have to pay for a similar instrument and/or that you can get a lot more instrument than an old wooden student clarinet (even a Buffet student clarinet) for $925.
I'm disappointed that your son's teacher apparently doesn't know more about the clarinet's market value but I'm not surprised. Many good clarinetists aren't as knowledgeable about gear as one might expect. I would like to hope that everything is on the up-and-up here but I must note that there is an inherent conflict of interest in your son's teacher's recommending his friend's clarinet to you.
If I were you, I would simply pass on this clarinet. The seller's asking price is so far out of line that a reasonable counter-offer on your part will likely be viewed as an insult. Also, even at a lower price, the clarinet is old enough that you can't be sure it doesn't have some major problems that aren't visible to the uninitiated eye (or ear)-- and neither you nor your son has the experience and expertise to evaluate it.
A brand new Yamaha YCL-450N runs about $1,100. IMO, that would be a much better choice.
Best regards,
jnk
Edit: Joanna, what is the serial number, including any prefixes. That could help in the instrument's identification.
Post Edited (2012-04-10 05:23)
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Author: ttay1122
Date: 2012-04-10 06:15
$925 is WAY too much for an evette master model. As mentioned above you could get a much better, newer, instrument for much cheaper. I'd say go to some music stores and keep your eyes pealed.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-10 06:26
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> A brand new Yamaha YCL-450N runs about $1,100. IMO, that would
> be a much better choice.
I agree with Jack. A new intermediate Yamaha is a good option. You may also want to look into the Leblanc Bliss line. These are normally ~$1300 however Kessler Music has some of the now discontinued LB-310 and LB-320 models on sale for $600-$650.
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Author: jo4razorbacks
Date: 2012-04-10 13:30
Thank you so much for your responses, as they are very helpful. I didn't really feel good about it, but as mentioned, not really knowledgeable on the subject. Jack, the serial number is D22268.
Joanna D. Metzger
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Author: Vubble3
Date: 2012-04-10 13:51
get a new intermediate or a used r13. believe me, used r13s play amazing,especially from 50s, 60s, and 70s
Buffet Bb R13 A RC Prestige
buffet chadash and moennig barrels
Lomax classic lig
b40 lyre
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-04-10 14:26
Joanna,
I think D22268 is consistent with an Evette Master Model made in the late 1960s or early 1970s. There are no serial number lists in existence for this model. However, I remember from an lookup that's no longer available, that D1 was made sometime n 1960 and my Evette Master Model has a number of 36xxx. I traced it to 1976. That suggests an average of around 2300 per year but production was probably an increasing function of time. If the clarinet was an Evette and Schaeffer from that time period, its serial number would have a K-prefix.
I have not personally played a Leblanc Bliss clarinet but they have generally received very good reviews and their designer, Morrie Backun, has impeccable credentials. At the prices Steve quoted, I think they would be well worth considering. The two models he identified are both "composite" (think plastic) clarinets. The more expensive one comes with a wooden barrel. Given their designer, I expect they are a significant cut above the average student plastic clarinet from a major manufacturer. And a plastic clarinet might be a good idea at this point because they tend to stand up to the rigors of marching band better than wood.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2012-04-10 15:38
If your son is playing a plastic clarinet now, and you decide to upgrade to a wooden one, it's a good idea to keep the plastic one, too, instead of trading it in. In high school, he'll almost certainly spend some time playing outdoors. Bad things happen to wooden clarinets out in the weather.
I agree with the people who say the price on the Master Model is too high. I hope this teacher isn't pressuring students' parents to buy from him, oops, I mean from his friend.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: musicalexcess
Date: 2012-04-10 17:03
A brief summary of everything so far (in terms of price) to help you organize your thoughts:
Used options:
Evette: $925
Leblanc professional: <$925
r13: $925 - $1800 (depends on condition, age)
New options:
Bliss line: $600-$650
Ridenour: $960
Buffet E11 (older model from 2000s): $700-$750
Buffet E11 (most recent model "France"): $1100
Yamaha YCL-450N: $1100
I would go with the R13 route- currently own and E11 and have tried many used R13s and regret not choosing an older used R13 instead.
http://musicalexcess.tumblr.com/
for everything clarinet related- pictures galore
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-10 19:16
musicalexcess wrote:
> A brief summary of everything so far (in terms of price) to
> help you organize your thoughts:
>
> Used options:
> Evette: $925
>
> Leblanc professional: <$925
> r13: $925 - $1800 (depends on condition, age)
>
> New options:
> Bliss line: $600-$650
> Ridenour: $960
> Buffet E11 (older model from 2000s): $700-$750
> Buffet E11 (most recent model "France"): $1100
> Yamaha YCL-450N: $1100
>
> I would go with the R13 route- currently own and E11 and have
> tried many used R13s and regret not choosing an older used R13
> instead.
>
For clarification purposes I'll correct a few errors in the above list. The E11 France actually sells for ~$1580. There is also a cheaper version of the E11 using Asian-sourced keys available for ~$900.
Also regarding the prices for used R13's I will mention that no R13 I have ever seen sell for <$1000 has been in playable condition so you should really take the cost of an overhaul into account. The vast majority of R13's in "ready to play" condition are going to be in the $1300+ range.
Used professional clarinets from the other brands will generally be available in the sub-$1000 range but the issue with all used clarinets of any brand is going to be availability and whether you can play test them before buying. If none are available locally then the only option is to purchase one off of an auction site or from a non-local seller. Often this means having no recourse if the instrument proves to be unsatisfactory.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-10 20:37
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> There are 2 E-11's currently???????
>
Apparently so. I dug up this blog post from Dave Kessler on the subject. Apparently the "cheap E-11" is actually a rehash of the Schreiber-made E-11 with nickel plated keys. I have seen various comments on this board that these keys are made somewhere in Asia to keep the cost down but unfortunately Kessler does not mention this in his post.
http://www.kesslermusic.com/blog/?p=375#more-375
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-04-10 23:56
I have an E-12 from the mid/late 80's and it is quite good, though I realize that they are different models. Though, I normally play a festival. And, I would never buy a clarinet without having a chance to play it (though the exact opposite is true for my sax experiences). So, whether vintage or new I would give the instrument a good playing test (as all horns even of the same model can be different). This is not to say that online sources should be ruled out, just the ones that don't allow for returns (ie. some ebay postings).
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Author: pewd
Date: 2012-04-11 05:10
brand new E11's can be had for under $800
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2012-04-11 13:08
Jack, at that time, the E-11's were coming with barrels and upper joints that were way, way too tight. Almost every one that my students got (and I had a lot of students playing them) had to be worked on just to assemble.
The keys were nickel at that time also. The keywork was smaller than the upper models - I don't remember if the E-12 had a larger spread (bottom stack, and the throat A key) or not, but I think it did.
So for a while I was having my younger students get the Yamaha YCL 34 instead.
Eventually they fixed the fitting issue. Also, the wood didn't look great at all back then.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-04-13 06:08
On the E12 the spread is pretty good on the keys and is a bit better than my festival (I have some big hands too). And, I had the exact problem that you were talking about (bell and barrel fittings); however, the real problem is in the dis-assembly (or lack there of). I've actually had the same problem with my festival as well though (though not nearly as bad), so I'm not entirely sure that they fixed that issue completely (but it may have been bad luck). I think I was fortunate enough to get one with good wood as well (though a bit on the grainy side; but hey, it's an intermediate horn).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-13 06:23
>> Eventually they fixed the fitting issue. <<
Unfortunately not true with the new E11 France model. This model is by far the worst I've seen as far as fitting of the tenons and sockets, statistically speaking. I've seen a few that weren't just tight, but impossible to assemble. The German E11s from any year have their issues, but in that respect are significantly better.
Post Edited (2012-04-13 06:30)
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-04-13 07:40
Weird, you'd think Buffet would catch that problem over the years. Possibly the wood expands due to the moisture associated with normal playing after they leave the factory, as for both of my horns no problems arose until I had owned each for a decent period of time. Is this a problem on other makes, as the only wooden horns I've ever owned are all Buffets (my oboe being the only one unaffected by this problem (but it's coated with plastic, as it was from the awkward phase when they were still developing greenlines so instead they coated wood with plastic for oboes (at least that's what I've been led to believe (and sorry about all the side notes (it's late (and I've taken to many logic and coding classes (extra ones <-->)( ))))))).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2012-04-13 08:38
>> you'd think Buffet would catch that problem over the years. Possibly the wood expands due to the moisture associated with normal playing after they leave the factory <<
Sometimes the problem is the wood changing dimensions. Although it's usually possible to have the dimensions accurate so it works in many different areas, it's better to make it slightly tight as opposed to loose.
But the problem I've seen with the new E11 France model is significantly worse. The fit is so bad that it's simply turned to the wrong diameter. It's much more than is possible by the change in moisture. Just poor QC IMO.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2012-04-13 12:25
In this price range take a look at the Antiqua by Backun. $1299 a whole lot of clarinet for a very modest price. I've been playing one for 6 months now and it's very much a Backun clarinet at a very affordable price.
Tom Puwalski. I'm a Backun and Antiqua by Backun Artist.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-13 13:45
I like how we started with a $925 price point and people are now suggesting $1300+ clarinets and saying they are in the same price range.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-13 14:29
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> What's a couple of hundred $ when you're playing it for so
> long?
>
A fair point but this assumes that you have the extra couple of hundred dollars to spend and that isn't always the case.
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2012-04-15 20:46
Last week I went to my local music store to try the E11 France. The guy took the instrument out for me while telling me how great this instrument is. He opened the case and began assembling it for me but suddenly stopped and just looked at me and said "well there seems to be a bit of a problem..."
Buffet really needs to fix this..makes them look not too good...
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Author: vljenewein
Date: 2012-07-30 18:32
Last Sunday I bought an Evette "West German" model for $30.00. Came with a Selmer French mouthpiece. I replaced 2 pads, and redid the tenon cork on the one that fits into the lower section and plays like a champ. I also have been able to buy a pretty nice Vito Leblanc and Selmer Bundy for around 35.00. Most I spent was 75.00 for a wooden Boosey & Hawkes Edgeware model. Beautiful Grenadillia wood! For someone that you don't know how far they are going to go, I think you can find some suitable clarinets out there, just look a bit.
Disclaimer: I'm a newbie, so take my advice as such.
Vernon
Jenewein Duduks Manufacturing & Research
www.duduk.us American made Duduks
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-07-30 22:21
About 15 years ago I bought a Buffet Evette Master model that looked a lot like an R13. It was a dead sounding instrument that was not useable for me until I undercut most of the toneholes to raise the low register pitch and minimize the deadness of the low register. After some more tuning and adjustment, it played ok.
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-07-31 07:15
It's a lottery- some years ago a Canadian clarinet player living in NZ imported a bunch of various Evette clarinets and overhauled them. Of the three I tried two sounded great but had dodgy intonation (though, i was comparing them to my pro clarinet, not to another student instrument) but the third was awesome- a beautiful clear tone quality with very very good intonation. One of my students bought it, and has since won various competitions, been accepted for a performance degree and studied in the UK, without finding any need to buy a better clarinet.
dn
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