 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: earlthomas
Date: 2004-12-20 15:17
How do you feel about alternate fingerings for the first B-flat above the staff (b-fla 1')? Some prefer exclusive use of the first trill key plus the fingering for A 1 (1,2,0 in the left hand) often referred to as "side B-flat", while I note in the Hamelin Leduc publication "Gammes et Exercices" an abundant use of F1 and sometimes F2 ("sur la table" - "en la mesa"}. Your opinions and discussion are appreciated.
Post Edited (2004-12-20 15:18)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-20 16:13
I use almost exclusively the trill key Bb. I have since been getting used to (and liking) the feature of my FB clarinet that allows me to use the "fork" Bb (which is => T R xox|ooo ) Fingers one and three. I can use this due to my third key ring and it being a FB. I use it now for trills from Bb to B, any time there's a passage alternating C and Eb chalemeua (as in the third movement of Weber's 1st clarinet concerto), and any other time it seems an easy alternative. I'm getting more and more used to it and loving it!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-20 17:10
Hank... Thanks for finding and posting links to these 2 important threads concerning the fingering in question.
Well worth reading both threads in their entirety ...GBK
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Author: earlthomas
Date: 2004-12-20 17:52
Thanks, Hank, for the links. I notice that one of them pertains mostly to the "sliver key". My post refers to either the bottom trill key or 1 over 1 for use in playing the first B-flat above the staff. They're fairly well covered in the topmost post of your much appreciated response. I would also point out that Hamelin suggests we not "rest on the tonic" 1/1 on the low e-flat, because it is "sensitive". I do not notice any tuning problems with the first B-flat above the staff, however. Again, the links are very interesting, especially to the theory of "action in the same hand", which, ironically enough, also applies to the use of the "sliver key".
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-21 15:13
I think that whether you 'exclusively' use a particular fingering depends on how much you practice.
If you don't practice much, then I would definitely go for the "side B-flat" as primary. It can be used in just about every situation--even when it would not be the preferred choice.
If you practice with at least some regularity, the 1/1 (or sometimes 1/2 or 1/3) B-flat can be very handy--particularly on arpeggios, grace notes, big jumps or other situations where you don't want to straighten your right index finger.
If you really seriously practice, you can develop the sense of judgement and strategy that goes along with the all left-hand 'sliver' B-flat, but it will never be more than an alternate fingering.
You've seen a lot in those links, so let me suggest some ways to test fingerings if you want to experiment:
1 - Slur your test passage. Tonguing conceals fingering flaws and slurs expose them. Slurring is thus your worst-case scenario and a very good test of your technique.
2 - After trying your fingering in a scale, try it in an arpeggio. Then try it in a scale-in-thirds. This helps to simulate some of the surprises that you might encounter when sight-reading or improvising.
Here's where I've arrived over the years:
'SIDE-KEY' or 'TRILL-KEY' B-FLAT - First Choice
If you only know one, this is the one to know. Can actually simulate many benefits of the "sliver" B-flat if you hold down the side key during some passages. May not be the ultimate chromatic fingering, but it hasn't slowed me down yet. I prefer it as a chromatic fingering because I have more flexibility about where I can go when I exit a chromatic passage.
1/1, 1/2 or 1/3 B-FLAT - Second Choice
Great for B-flat arpeggios and low E-flat arpeggios. 1/2 is also helpful in the key of B. Also good for E-flat to E grace notes, and provides a very controlled way to waver the pitch of a first-line E. (i.e. good for concert B-flat blues) Inferior to the 'side-key' fingering IMO for most scale runs, but far superior when there are jumps that make you want to keep your RH index finger close to the horn. Some folks do use this as their primary, although I don't agree.
"SLIVER", "BANANA-KEY" or "ALL-LEFT" B-FLAT - Third Choice
Good chromatic fingering, although less flexible than either of the others IMO. Usable on straight B-flat major scales, but crashes and burns when you try to meander back and forth along the same scale. Any benefit that this key is thought to have, can arguably be attributed also to the much safer side-key fingering. (thus, this fingering is not truly needed)
Bad diatonic fingering because it occupies the same part of the same finger as the C/G hole. (and thus cannot be used directly next to a note more than a half-step below it) To me, this makes it the most dangerous as well as the least necessary key on the entire instrument. Many young schoolchildren are virtually crippled by its incorrect and unsupervised application.
The sliver key's location also makes it very easy to vent by accident when fingers are big and/or hands are tense. There is also a mental burden in trying to avoid improper application of this fingering. Too distracting for me when sight-reading or improvising. (this is a RECITAL fingering, if you ask me...) Every time I see an old sax with a cork shoved in its alternate low E-flat, I think about cutting off a sliver and sticking it under this key. But then of course, there are the page turns. That's where this one really shines! <g>
Ergonomics! If we're lucky enough--and open-minded enough--perhaps one day they'll be applied to our instrument...<sigh>
Allen Cole
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-21 15:58
Hi,
Allen, you and I must have had the same teachers somewhere in the past as your post is exactly how I approach all the Bb/Eb fingerings. I do know though that whenever I took lessons from a professor that had either Bonade or Gigliotti as their teacher, the sliver key was always (and I mean always) used for chromatic fingering. There was no alternate choice in either Fred or Ed's mind (two wonderful and fantastic teachers none the less).
However, we had a discussion a bit ago about the BIS key fingering. Since you and I are sax palyers, we are very fmailiar with that one. For Earl's benefit, here is the link.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=83577&t=83577
HRL
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-22 04:04
My middle school band director was a Gigliotti devotee, and second clarinetist in the local symphony orchestra. He had me using the sliver key more than I do today.
But one difference that I see today--particularly with all the students who practice so little--is that we are more in a sightreading/improvising mode than before. It seems to me that there is less music being actually prepared with any great degree of care--and that may be forcing more players to play more simply.
Allen Cole
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Author: stebinus
Date: 2004-12-22 07:29
I find on my old Selmer 9* that the 1/1 has a very good sound and is nicely in tune so I use it a lot. I just got a used Buffet E-11 and find the 1/1 to be quite sharp and somewhat fuzzy so this is a problem being used to using it so much. I'm wondering if this is a trait of Buffets in general since so many of you play R-13s and seem to favor the trill key Bb/Eb or if it is just an idiosyncracy of my Buffet or some glitch I haven't worked out yet. I also notice that the upper register is better in tune on the Buffet and perhaps this is related.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-12-22 11:10
I always use the 'banana' key - it keeps your fingers 'on top' of the intrument so as to avoid unneccesary contortion in the fingers. When you think about it, it makes sense; as opposed to putting up your whole right hand to play a note that's on the left hand of the instrument. It's just very inefficient to me.
But anyway, I've spent time doing excercises on both fingerings, because you never know. A really good player should have excellent technique no matter what fingering they're using.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-12-22 12:25
I happen to believe that all three fingerings (side key, 1+1, and sliver key) for the Bb above the staff are quite important and should have almost equal status. There are a lot of passages for each of these fingerings. For slow passages, intonation is the critical factor on choosing a fingering (sometimes the 1+1 is a little off). For fast passages, the one that makes the most mechanical sense would normally be the best choice although there are exceptions. So I usually go with the 1+1 for arpeggios and many other jumps, the sliver key for scale type or chromatic type runs, and the side key for most other occasions.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-22 13:46
The sliver key is great for players with slender fingers...
Bob Draznik
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2004-12-22 13:55
stebinus---if your 1/1 Bb is out-of-tune and fuzzy, I would look to the adjustment of the bridge mechanism--it sounds like it is not fully closing the small key on the upper joint. Check this out carefully. Sometimes loose cork on the upper joint tenon can cause slight misalignment of the upper and lower joints with the same results, also. You can check this by pressing the small key down with your left hand middle finger-if this makes a clear sound, you have found the problem!
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Author: stebinus
Date: 2004-12-22 15:34
You're right. Not enough cork on the bridge. I missed that. Assumed the tech I just got it back from wouldn't make that mistake. Warning: beware cheap techs.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-02-26 19:35
The banana key doesn't fit my fingers. When I'm using the top two fingers of my left hand, the third finger of that hand barely has room to depress the banana key. I don't even have fat fingers. It seems the banana could be further moved down towards the tone hole that would make the G above the staff without interfering with that note. Why is the banana key closer to the second tone hole than the third on the upper joint? Ok, it's not really closer to the second tone hole at the tip, but the majority of the banana key rests almost on top of the second hold and it's only a tiny piece of it that resides half way between the two holes. It seem that the key could have a different curve so that it could make a straight line that divides the distance between the two holes on its entire finger contact length.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-02-26 21:26
You can always have the LH Eb/Bb 'sliver' key bent downwards or the curve straightened out to make it easier to use. Keys and touchpiece positions can easily be adjusted by bending them to suit your hands (and they don't need to be warmed up or heated to do this as the metal is usually already soft enough from having been cast or silver soldered during manufacture), but do take it to someone experienced in doing this kind of thing instead of doing it yourself (unless you know what you're doing).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2012-02-27 15:26
Hi Garth,
Chris P.'s advice is right on. Check with a good tech and a few "adjustments' with key bending pliers (don't try this yourself) and you should be fine.
My old pal, Dave S., has done some sliver key mods (thinned as I recall) to better fit individual's unique hands. That's the point, we are all a little different. BTW, if you find things tight with a Bb, wait until you try an eefer!!!!
What we are talking about here is ergonomics and just like shoes, "one size does not fit all." See a good tech!
HRL
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-02-29 22:49
sfalexi's joy over being able to play Bb5 AND Eb4 by fingering Ab/Db and simply raising the left hand middle finger to get a nicely in-tune result is a thing that we all should experience!
Just yesterday, working on the quick Ab5/Bb5 switches in the last movement of the von Weber 5tet, I was dumbfounded to find my fingers remembering to use TR XOX G# | OOO (also in the 2nd movement of the Mozart Concerto). Now, it's been 50 freakin' years since last I seriously worked on the Weber, and I've been without my Full Boehm clarinet for 5 years; and I still have that habit.
In this case, the sliver key Bb is just out of the question, the 1-1 is silly; and I miss my "complete' clarinet.
Bob Phillips
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