 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: obtuse
Date: 2004-01-04 03:01
I moved to my current highschool from a different district where we were taught to play Bb by using our knuckle (or around that area) to hit the 4th and lowest key in the trill cluster thing.
I've noticed that every other clarinet player (who all came from the same middle school) play Bb by using the banana shaped key underneath the D/A tone-hole. They say that's the fingering they were taught to use.
I find the fingering kindof difficult to use, but they don't seem to have too much trouble on fast passages or trills, so I guess it's alright.
What I'm wondering is, if there is one, which is the standard Bb fingering? And if it's really up to the player, which one do you use?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-04 03:12
I always use the knuckle on the trill key. I've never used the banana key. Many people use the sliver (banana) key when playing a chromatic scale. I always use the knuckle. Hey, whatever works, right?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2004-01-04 03:23
Hmm, come to think of it, I don't think I've EVER used that left handed Bb you're refering to, but always the right handed one, even for A/Bb trills. I know it's there, but it's just awkward to reach. I'll even guess that the person that taught everyone at your school that fingering was NOT a clarinet major.
I'm anxious to see if anybody else says they use the banans shaped LH Bb regularly.
I have seen some people prefer the LH pinky finger F/C over what I think is the more common RH fingering for it. I'll only use the LH when I HAVE TO jump to or from the Ab/Eb, which is the only note you can't finger with your left hand (unless your clarinet has the extra key).
Ooh, here's a middle school story of my own, even though it was long ago. A friend and I figured out that you can play a high C trill using the third triller on the right side. The CORRECT fingering is the Ab key on the left side. Our band director wasn't a clarinetist, and when we figured our way out, we told all the other first clarinets to use it too, so they did. It was the blind leading the blind! Those were the days...
When I first read your title, I though you may have been thinking of flute fingerings, since there are many doublers on here.
Post Edited (2004-01-04 15:17)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-01-04 04:46
I use _all_ of the Bb fingerings. Each has its own context in which it works best. For instance, if you're coming from G, the LH Bb would be much more difficult than the RH one. If it's a chromatic scale, I find the RH Bb a little more awkward, since you've got to coordinate your two hands otherwise. For me that works better...
And when you've gotta play a quick Bb arpeggio (either major or minor) nothing beats 1-1!
Katrina
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2004-01-04 05:30
I remember Alexi's discussion, and his novel ways of dealing with the unwanted intruder between the second and third tone holes. In my own playing, I use the front key unless the context of the note prevents me. It's on the principle that keeping the movement in the same hand is more economical for both physical movement and mental processes, which is what Katrina seems to be getting at. Admittedly it's a very small difference, but it helps in the faster stuff and chromatics.
With my own students who come from other teachers, I find that if they use the side key and have learned no other, it seems to be as natural for them as walking. I don't try to change their methods in one go, because that causes confusion. I encourage them gradually to use both.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-01-04 09:59
I was taught to use the 'banana' key because it's on top - you want to keep your fingers on top of the instrument for evenness' sake, and only use the side key when it's unavoidable. And only in an extreme emergency use the horrible out of tune forked Eb / Bb.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-01-04 14:35
Katrina says it well, I use ALL 4 of the "possibles" for Eb/Bb, #3 being the one and one, #4 being the 7th ring-fork available on full [or partial] Boehm-added horns [like the Pete F's], but dern it, not available on bass and alto cls! Like with the little-finger keys, PLAN AHEAD!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Avie
Date: 2004-01-04 14:37
I use the fingering that eliminates any sliding of the fingers and which is most convenient depending on the piece or run. Keith Steins book on "The Art of Clarinet Playing" has a very good explaination on alternate fingerings of this kind. Like alexi said "whatever works".
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-04 15:13
Hi Everyone,
IMHO it is not as easy as "whatever works." The sliver key is on the Boehm clarinet for a specific reason. That reason seems to be that there are places in the literature or in studies (chromatic for one) where the motions required to use it, considering what comes before and/or after that note, should be the the guide.
It is probably not in one's best interest to further a "whatever works" mentality in any form of woodwind playing (oboe and bassoon have some real tough fingering situations). You would then be limiting yourself when a more complex situation is encountered. Learn the instrument completely and you will be well served later.
Although I tend toward the side Bb/Eb, I know when it and the 1 and 1 (as well as a 1 and 2 in certain situations) should be best used. I even purposely use the sliver key in rehearsal/performance situations so as to maintain some dexterity.
For what it's worth.
HRL
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Author: Renato
Date: 2004-01-04 15:55
Well, the first fingering chart I got (I think it was from the Klosé method) shows the LH (using the "banana-shaped" key) as being the first choice, so I departed from that. Most clarinet players I talked to seemed to agree that this fingering, for the reasons given above (using the same hand for a sequence of notes, being on top of the instrument etc) was the one to regard as standard. Having no teacher to define things for me, I did my own research, and the conclusion I reached (at the time) was that I should by all means perfect the sound resulting from that fingering -- the worst, weakest note on my clarinet -- adding fingers, trying to give it a fuller tone, and all.... And the side fingering, using the knuckle on the trill key, was there for when I had a chance to use it comfortably, especially for long Bb's or in slow passages (I have small hands). So I never really took the trouble of practicing the knuckle motion, as I should have, to reach the side key an dperhaps make it my standard Bb fingering. Now, after reading a number of you stating that the side Bb has always been your first choice, I'm willing to reconsider and start drilling the knuckle-action so it works as fast as possible.
On the other hand, I agree with those who advocate the "all the fingerings are important and have their place" approach, as well as the "whatever works" notion, since it doesn't imply carelessness, it just means it's up to the player to try and see, for each context, each passage, which of the possible fingers works best (a compromise between fluency and tone quality).
Finally (is this becoming a letter?), the 1-1 fingering gives such a poor-sounding note that I try to avoid it like the plague.
One more comment: I even asked Mr. Sherman Friedland about it, and he said "improve your LH Bb but use the side Bb as often as possible".
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-04 16:09
Hi,
I realize the 1 and 1 fingring is not the best fingering around in terms of intonation but try Kroepsch # 176 at a brisk tempo and facilty certainly out-weighs pitch.
Perhaps I should clarify my position on the "whatever works" issue. To me, this phrase implies "just get the job done no matter what fingering you use." Such an aproach as that can lead to lots of trouble when you find that you needed to learn all the tools/fingerings. IMHO what might be best to say is "whenever a specific fingering is required, I'll be able to use the correct one." The side fingering works in most cases but when you are in need of the chromatic or the 1 and 1, those are the correct ones to use.
I would have been very remiss if I had not taught my students where and when to use the sliver key.
HRL
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-04 16:37
What I use:
"banana" key--for chromatic and fast scale passages not envolving Ab/Db key.
RH side key--99% of the time.
"one & one"--only for ultra fast transitions between Bb/Eb and F/Bb. *
"one and middle"--only for ultra fast between Bb/Eb and F#/B.*
* these fingerings are very out of tune and should be avoided if at all possible (and avoidance is possible most of the time)
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Author: marcia
Date: 2004-01-04 17:27
I would say whatever works best in the situation, be it banana key, right hand trill key, one and one, or one and middle.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-01-04 19:40
In the case of the Bb/Eb fingerings, all of them should be drilled to the point where they are equally easy to use. Then for any given passage, the clarinetist should study the passage to select the one that is most appropriate to the sequence of notes in that passage.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-04 20:20
Hi Dee,
That's the exact point. However, I'm afraid that if a young/inexperienced player was left to their own devices..... Sometimes, teachers must insist on not taking the easy way ("whatever works") and need to make their students well aware of the possibilities so an informed choice can be made.
Note: several posters above have said that they have never used the sliver key for Bb/Eb. There appear to be some obvious gaps in instruction if that person is a college student but somewhat understandable for a HS student that is not studying privately. I'll bet the chromatic F/F# is not taught as well.
HRL
PS William has outlined the choices perfectly. Looks like they teach pretty good clarinet at U of W.
Post Edited (2004-01-04 20:51)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-04 22:55
Quote:
Note: several posters above have said that they have never used the sliver key for Bb/Eb. There appear to be some obvious gaps in instruction if that person is a college student but somewhat understandable for a HS student that is not studying privately. I'll bet the chromatic F/F# is not taught as well. Hank, as far as the "whatever works" comment I said it is because that I know that I can time my fingers appropriately so that whether they sliver key should be more convenient (as in a chromatic), if I can do it fine using the side key, I see no reason to try to learn another way and just further complicate my playing with another possibility. If this was the case, then perhaps everyone should strive for a Full Boehm clarinet so they can have that alternate Eb/Ab key. Certainly it'd be better than occasionally having to "slide" when theres no other alternative on your standard boehm.
Also, as far as the F/F# chromatic (two lowest side trill keys), I personally do use it and find it useful. However I remember in a past post that there are some pretty famous people who don't use it(I seem to remember Stanley Drucker being one) because they find it more useful to think of keeping the movements all in one hand instead of using two. And it seems to work fine for them.
Yes, it would have been nice to have been taught all the alternative fingerings, however I've learned to "do without" and I feel (like I previously stated) that whatever works, is good. There are those that never use the one and one. And they get away with it. So why should they have to learn if they are comfortable in their ways and you can't tell the difference as the audience?
Alexi
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Author: PJ
Date: 2004-01-05 04:45
Every teacher I've had required that the chromatic scale be played using the sliver key for Eb/Bb up and down in addition to using alternate C/F (left hand) with C#/F# on the right hand on the way down. Consequently I teach all my students to use this fingering.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-05 04:58
Hey, one of several thigs is happening. I never noticed that the famous L1-R1 fingering is out of whack. So having read that tidbit, I just assembled one of my weapons and played it. Well, seemingly either:
1) My Korg tuner is sick (all look good),
2) My ear and lip are working very well, or
3) (and this one's really hard to believe) My Clarinet has better intonation.
The Eb/Bb have more useful fingerings than any other notes on the instrument. Tremolo from F3 to Eb4, for example: the Eb can be fingered T, L1, R123, and R4F. Occasionally useful is the saxophone-like fingering of T, L1, L1½. L1½ is to depress with the second finger the pad attached to the L2 ring. On some sequences it does best for me.
Learn your Clarinet. Try it out. Know as many fingerings as you can. Understand that not all Clarinets can use the same fingerings equally well. And keep your own chart.
Regards,
John
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2004-01-05 06:01
I use the one and one (L1R1) for everything. Trills are a bit aukward, but I'm working on that. I don't find the one and one any more out of tune then any other key. If it is, there is a small leak somewhere. Check the bridge linkage.
Up until three years ago, I used the left bananna key on chromatics going down and the right bottom trill key going up. Then I decided there were too many keys on the French clarinet and simplified things.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-05 06:09
Quote:
Then I decided there were too many keys on the French clarinet and simplified things. Try an Oehler! A few less keys on that one!
My uncle (who doesn't play clarinet, but instead plays sax and is learning the flute) now uses the 1 and 1 on the sax. Not so much for simplicity, but because he's had to drill it into his head so much for the flute, he now can't get it out of his head for the sax! Just an interesting tidbit.
Alexi
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-01-05 08:24
I have the feeling that I fall into the category of Hank's inadequately taught people in that I seem to have been told the side key is the main fingering and to use the banana key only on occasions, if ever. In fact, the one/one (and derivatives) fingering was more heavily promoted than the banana.
Why was this? One obvious reason is that a good legato from a banana B flat to the notes all the way down to the bell B, the equivalents in the lower register, and to C sharp up to F in altissimo is not possible. This rules out the majority of intervals. Whilst it is true that, for many, co-ordination of two hands presents difficulties, and they may feel that using the side key puts the hand out of position, many other players will not find this to be the case. The system's designer may have included the banana largely for the sake of the minority who have this co-ordination issue. It is certainly worth having the key just to serve those people. Two further points: trilling from B flat to upper C is very much easier using the banana; on larger instruments such as the bass clarinet, the degree of hand movement required for the side key is greater, so I imagine more players would use the banana on those instruments.
Personally, I use the banana from time to time, but not that much. I often use it in slower passages as it seems a "calmer" sort of fingering.
One of the things I was taught about the one/one fingering (and derivatives) was that legato would be compromised if followed by a note lower than B flat (such as A or A flat). The logic is obvious (co-ordinating two hands: one with finger going up, the other going down). But I rarely find this a problem, and the tonal difference in this fingering is often very useful for expressive purposes. Hence I would tend to use it in a passage such as the opening of the Howells Sonata.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-05 11:35
Hi Everyone,
Some of you may be aware that I am also a certified flight instructor. During my instructing days (I still keep my CFI current), I have taught many people to fly. I also have taught many, many more people to play musical instruments (probably more clarinets than anything). There is a parallel.
One thing that is very important in the earliest stages of both learning clarinet and airplane-stuff is that the correct fundamentals are introduced and mastered in a "building-block" approach. If the FAA does one thing well, it is to insist on this approach; there is a compelling reason.
This approach is seated strongly in the theoretical work of Pavlov, Thorndike, and B. F. Skinner and is all about reinforcement, learning feedback, and transfer of learning. The Law of Primacy says something like "what we learn first is what we retain best." Considering this one idea, and it is a law, a case for how important it is to teach the complete instrument/process in a logical way can be made.
Perhaps PJ said it best with
"Every teacher I've had required that the chromatic scale be played using the sliver key for Eb/Bb up and down in addition to using alternate C/F (left hand) with C#/F# on the right hand on the way down. Consequently I teach all my students to use this fingering."
So, if you did not get a complete and "building block" type education what can you do about it? IMHO, you need to learn what has been missed and hope that you can overcome your previous and probably heavily ingrained habits. Learning theory says that undoing habits will be a challenge. You will need to relearn some basics but if you want to do it and give things enough time, I'm sure you can.
But then, if you want to do it your way, who am I to say you can't. I just know how I wanted my students to do things and I have to make no apoligies for not adequately preparing them; this goes for playing clarinet as well as flying airplanes (see above).
To take things one step further, if an inadequately prepared person become an instructor/teacher, how does he or she teach students? Hopefully, not "whatever works."
HRL
Post Edited (2004-01-05 12:57)
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Author: William
Date: 2004-01-05 15:35
Hank wrote, "PS William has outlined the choices perfectly. Looks like they teach pretty good clarinet at U of W."
The UW-Madison (and I) thank you--and it is a good school--but I would like to credit the private teacher I had while in high school, Benny Ehr (deceased), for teaching me the fundamentals, including the correct use of those pesky Bb fingerings. None of Bennys students ever had to "unlearn" anything even through the most advanced graduate studies and subsequent professional playing careers that many of his former students went on to. We were all fortunate to know him as a person and as a teacher/mentor.
As for the chromatic F#4 (T+2 side keys), I read that Robert Marcellus would not let his students use it, preferring to keep "all the action" in the left hand. I have switched to this method, after using the side keys all my life, and it works for me. The good news is that now I can use either the side keys or the "flipflop" with ease, depending on the technical situation.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-01-05 18:13
William,
I agree about the F#...I think I switched to "flip-flopping" sometime way back in High School, and I only ever use the bottom two keys in a quick trill (which happens very rarely!).
I tell my students to use whichever of those they prefer. However, I DO "force" them to use the chromatic B/F# fingering which they really resist for some reason! LOL!
Katrina
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-01-06 02:53
There is an entire set of drills for acquiring facility with the various alternate fingerings in the Rubank Advanced Method Books, Volumes I and II. Volume I drills primarily on the lower register while Volume II hits the upper register. Not only do these little drills cover alternate fingerings but also address those types of passages where you may need to slide from key to key.
By the way, we had new music in our community band tonight and it so happened that for me, that the passages in the music split about 50/50 as to what would be the best fingering, sliver key or side key. In this particular piece, there was no place that would need the 1+1 fingering.
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2004-01-06 06:27
Hank, behaviourism´s days are past by now. When I teach I try to develop the pupil´s abilities to his/her most, and I am certainly not the one judging when that point is reached. There´s no way at all when one would be able to say "now, this is the complete clarinet", You will agree with me, in my own experience with this windinstrument, right now, I am in no position to say that I know what the "complete clarinet" means, as I learn new sounds (adding quantity), and re-learning what I already covered (adding quality). The term "correctness" is very irritating to me, because it entails such a lot of "I teach you the truth now, and you better listen!" - stuff, whilst I experience musical and cultural history screaming complexity and many-winded roads into my face. According to the "correct" - ideology, apart from Western methods of coming to grips with the clarinet, nobody would know how to handle a clarinet. There are more ways to the woods. I found the phrase "technique is like money, the more you have the more you can do with it" appealing (if it wasn´t this blunt capitalistic ring to it) - true enough, the more possibilities one has for sounding Bb the better - this pays off extremely well with contemorary literature, where there are weird fingerings galore.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-01-06 09:46
i confess i haven't read all the posts
sorry, it got tedious
Katrina and Hank made some good comments way back there....
NOW something no one has mentioned (unless i skipped over it, hmmmmm)
the LEFT hand key is usually tuned sharper than the RIGHT hand key (in theory- this is a tradition in French clarinets that goes back to Klose, but of course can easily be influenced by adjusting pad height)
The reason for this is so that you can use a sharper/flatter fingering depending on the harmony/melodic context. Read Klose Part/Book one for "leading note" exercises, and Hamelin Scales and exercises for a good run down of the "left vrs right" eflat/bflat key issue.
AND just to throw the cat in with the turkeys a very fine Principal clarinet told me he never uses the bannana key, not even in chromatic scales (he also does the finger swap for F-F#). This guy can play. Amazing technique, intonation and interpretation. He's beaten me in 3 auditions (hmmmph).
i personally use the left key in chromatic scales and some scale passages, when there's water in the other key (like, last page of Mahler 10th symph, live broadcast on national radio, exposed high Bflat at PP, can't blow the water out in the middle of a Bassoon solo..... or can i?)
well, there it is
donald
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-06 11:42
Hi Markus,
Several excellent points. In reviewing my posts, the work "correct" could probably be changed to "preferred" and the meaning would be the same. I'm sorry though that I do not agree that "behaviourism´s days are past by now" as you can probably tell that although I would hope the a student might quickly develop a high level of knowledge in the cognitive domain so as to intuitively find which is the "correct" way to handle things, I am still of the presuasion that specific conditioning (ala B.F. Skinner) is probably required.
While the discovery method of learning is a facinating possibility (here, this is a clarinet, see what you can do with it), I still think the teacher must drill certain habits in virtually any stage of learning. An intuitive approach is very interesting but...
I once saw John Daly, one of the longest hitters in golf, drive a ball almost 200 yards. The interesting thing is he used a putter! Works for Daly, not the best in most situations, however.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-01-06 15:17)
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2004-01-06 13:02
Hi Hank,
I must have expressed myself myself badly, for "intuition" is just another metaphysical misconception. For certain I don´t just hand over the instrument and more or less say "see what you can do with it", at least I hope I don´t come across like that. Either way is based on various axioms that cannot be justified on their own, the human mind isn´t just a black box a teacher is paid for getting the proper responses to a catalogue of stimuli either positive or negative, and it isn´t a demiurgan creator just to be triggered by inspiration. A musical instrument is a tool, nothing more, and all a teacher can teach is how to handle it. The number of ways of handling certainly is finite, including smashing it against a wall, but producing a work of art is transgressing a combinatory problem. Not so very long ago a certain combination of finger movements and embrochure was said to be allowed, others not, and if there is something in the musical history I am deeply grateful for, it is the dodecaphonic liberation and its wake, which made it possible to use the whole spectrum of audible sounds for the production of music, and to invent devices to lift those phenomena which couldn´t be heard up to audible range. A pupil has to trust me that if I suggest a certain fingering or attack the result will show itself, soon developing into what the pupil (NOT me) wants to hear. I am not so sure whether "preffered" is much of a gain over "correct", since it leaves the authority to the teacher still; I want no drills whatsoever, if I cannot give a plausible and rational reason for why this should be done like that etc, I can forget it. E.g., a clarinet is made of wood, wodd cracks when wet for a sustained period of time, therefore we players develop a solid hysteria in respect to cleaning out stuff. Everyone understands that (I hear the metal- and plastic - clarinet-people laughing...), no "one does it this way full stop".
My pupils teach me at least as much as I them, honestly, together we took to singing (well, better "screeching"-) difficult passages, they presented me with own compositional ideas, and some of them dropped the subject of playing alltogether, which is fine too. The only thing I cannot stand is when a pupil does not want to engage in playing full tilt, as fine as he/she can, because that leaves me to say either he/she does play more, more regularily, or drop the clarinet. You will agree, one cannot do this halfhearted, so to say. But this also is not a subject of getting the "preferred" across, it is just about determination of the pupil. No stimulus can provoke that (initially yes, like any moving concert experience or records might do, but not lastingly, if he/she sits down to rehearse day after day...or doesn´t).
But there´s something about this "preferred" I dig very much, it is this "you can acchieve this what you want to hear by doing that" etc, by suggesting a possible approach to what a pupil wants to get out of this wooden tube. This is one of the most intense as well as most difficult moments for me, when a composer or other performer answer my question in respect to a particular score by suggesting that I let them hear what I think proper to be played there. Teaching is giving an opportunity to let pupils listen to the sounds they already hear between their two ears, the rest is about effectively handling a sophisticated tool. I don´t want an automatic response but a reflected one, a "I want it exactly like that" from the pupil´s side, then I am happily grinning like Carroll´s Cheshire cat (positive enforcement, I have to admit it there).
I would love to learn golf, it seems a wonderful sport to my totally unexperienced eyes, but I suspect, if this John Daly is a very fine golfer, this using his tools in unorthodox ways makes him that, don´t you think? He seems to be successful exactly by not doing what is preferred to be done in those "long hit"-situations (in whose a "putter" is not used, I suppose?) -like most evolutionary steps in musical history were and are achieved by people questioning tradition (hm, I am quite sure there some situations in learning to fly which leave just one way to do it or one´s dead, but so there are with the clarinet) and acting against it, in every msuical dimension, be it tone-heigth, dynamics, duration, spatial projection, timbre.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-06 15:33
Hi Markus,
I do think we are on the exact same page with the "preferred versus correct" useage. We do want our student to make an informed choice though about what is the best in a certain situation rather than "this is the only way to do things." When there is just rote conditioning in a player's bag of tricks (the John Daly putter shot was really a comical, trick shot that everyone enjoyed) the player has not achieved a very high level of cognitive learning.
I was part of several interesting research studies that were done with airline pilots and their instructors a few years ago (I can reference you to the published papers and articles if you are interested). I worked with several professors/mates from Australia. In looking at over 600 airline pilot and instructor surveys, we were able to support our research hypothesis that airline pilots want to learn in a Deep (high level cognitive) Approach rather than Surface or Achieving. There is a parallel here in musical instrument training. An advanced pilot wants to know what makes things work and why; not a Surface Appoach where there is just a rote type response. I'd like to extrapolate that advanced clarinetist probably are probably the same. What separates the expert from the novice is the level of inquiry; as teachers, we must support that kind of growth but not until the preliminaries have been completed.
So, maybe we better carry on any furture scholarly discussions by email before we are baned from the BB for being too dull and stuffy. I think I hear people snoring!
HRL
PS Take up golf. If you think worrying about which Bb fingering to use is tricky, wait until you get a few years of play under your belt and are trying to cure your slice, putt better, etc. Now that's almost as challenging as trying to play the bassoon well!
Post Edited (2004-01-06 15:39)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-06 17:24
I love this BB. Where else could a simple question of appropriate fingering transform into a philosophical discussion covering everything from learning techniques to behaviorism vs... well, whatever.
This is going too well for me to contaminate it with my views.
Regards,
John
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-06 17:46
Hi John,
Come on in, the water's fine. I have not lost sight of Obtuse's original question about which fingering to use but sometimes, the philosophical underpinnings must be clarified.
I think the reason I got into the learning theory stuff was not only because I love it and enjoy talking about how people learn (in airplanes or on clarinets) but the more I look, the closer the two things are in theory. One other reason that I am so strong about doing things in what might be best called the preferred way is that anyone that teaches anything less than that is setting their pupils up for some bumps in the road.
I deal with college students of all shapes, sizes, and ages everyday and the one thing that separates the gifted (a few) from the average (the vast majority) is their preparation for academic work at the higher education level and their continued willingness to learn and explore. I know there are others professors on the BB that will agree that all too often, an earlier instructor or two has let someone by with inadequate preparation. I don't want to see any of our younger BB members take the responsibility of instructing too lightly; never let it be said that you told your student "whatever works." Life, as well as clarinet playing, is not that way.
Soapbox pushed out of sight! I can hear the snoring even more.
HRL
PS Actually, the theoretical literature we were using as a basis for the airline pilot research came from how people approach leading to read. Go figger!
Post Edited (2004-01-08 23:24)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-06 17:51
Been doing some thinking and reading Hank. (both on BBoard and in the book I ordered called "The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing" by Robert Schmidt). I see now that regardless of my habits and the fact that I choose to use the side Bb, it is important to (if I were teaching) to show the student all alternatives, the advantages/disadvantages of them and allow them to choose from all available fingerings whatever THEY want to use. It wouldn't be fair.
Thickheaded Alexi has realized the error of his ways.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-06 18:33
Hi Alexi,
There was never any intent to show you or anyone else the error in their ways. But I am glad that you have grown through the BB discussions that have transpired with this string.
IMHO You are correct that it would not be fair to your students to give them anything less than all the alternatives. What you and they do privately, is your own business.
Glad you learned from the dialogue. I do enjoy being part of any educational event!
HRL
Post Edited (2004-01-06 23:25)
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-06 19:48
Hank: Well, you asked for it. Experience is the best teacher? No, experience can be the most difficult teacher of all. It's much better to have someone tell you to take the yellow part off a banana before you eat it. Trying to take a big bite before you peel the thing can be very distasteful, "But hey, it works with apples and pears, y'know?" Hence the advantage of having a good instructor.
But beyond rather straightforward fundamental aspects of any craft, personal investigation can do a great job of learning assistance for some people. Many autodidacts will learn despite any obstacles placed before them. Others need to have things spoon-fed. Nowadays, thanks to Gardner and those who amplify his concepts, we even know that different people learn in ways that are very diverse. And what works for one person may be a complete failure with another. To me, one of the big problems in education today is that so many people of all sorts tend to believe that the way they learned will work for everyone, and it just is not true. When these people hold high positions in the field, this may bode ill for many learners.
If I'm in the main cabin, I would hope my pilot reacts in a Skinnerian fashion if some anticipated problem arises (such as a small fire), not having to figure things out as the problem develops. But "If this light comes on, push that button" won't always do the job, as you well know. So, the pilot who has deep-learned the whole body of immediate knowledge is the one I want up front if something unanticipated happens, such as the top skin of the aircraft peeling off in flight. At that point, "whatever works" would suit me just fine. In that case, of course, it isn't like fingering a Clarinet, because for those pilots, there are several thousands of possible actions that would *not* work, not help at all, or might even be devastating. I would hope the forward crew has enough smarts to figure out pretty quickly what does work, so they can keep on flying the plane.
If something new happens to your environment, such as a new navigation system or a new FMS, rote learning is great to get you started, but it sure won't do it all. Deep learning becomes tougher for most learners the more one gets into whatever body of knowledge one is pursuing. From then on, no longer can you simply memorize a bunch of factoids; you have to really understand things. And rote memorization just plain will not grant you real understanding.
Regards,
John
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-01-06 22:34
I use four of the five Eb/Bb fingerings I know (I have never found a context for the 1/6 fingering); however, I mostly use the side key fingering (even in chromatic scales) and the 1/4 (also called the 1/1) fingerings.
I find the fork (banana key) fingering rather cramped, and therefore rarely use it. Very occasionally I will use it for getting a slightly "softer" tone quality for the Bb (I don't really use it for the Eb), such as m. 17 of the second movement of Carl Stamitz' 3rd concerto, which I find the side key too bright.
Neverthelss, I teach my students all the fingerings for these notes. With the side key versus fork key, I give my students a choice: most find the side fingering easier, one is about equal, and one prefers the fork fingering (though the last uses the side when he can't use the fork). All of them learn the 1/4, 1/5, and 1/6 fingering, knowing that the most common used is the 1/4. They also develop an understanding of context of using different fingerings. There are early-level pieces and studies that require alternate fingerings; hence, my decision to teach students all fingerings for each note. (though generally not at the same time).
But, this sort of thing happens a lot, where school music teachers often only teach one fingering for a given note. (Even clarinet majors) Hence the necessity of private lessons.
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-01-06 22:53
I was (unfortunately?) left to my own devises when it came to using ALL the keys on my clarinet as a student. My teacher showed me the basics and not much else ... not to downgrade her as a teacher, she was splendid. So figuring out all the alternative keys has a voyage of discovery in my case.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-06 23:23
John,
You understand the whole things very well. Yes, the Deep Learning thing is the best but when emergency items occur like rapid decompression, fire, certain failures, a conditioned response is the only way. No time to say "well let me see."
Funny personal story about when the skin peels off situation you cited. I think that was an Aloha 737 and the the pilot Bob Shotenstien was a guy that one of my sisters dated in college. Talk about the small work. But I digress.
Meri,
Sounds like your students are really winners here with your instruction. I also use a 1 and 6 once is a great while just for grins like if I have a D to Bb (G to Eb) passage that is quick. I had a post a year or so about the BIS key (if you are a sax player you know all about the 1st finger Bb). Why don't they put one on clarinet. Actually, there is a Santy Runyon key that you can attach. I got one but it fell off during an outdoor concert into the grass and...
Diz,
The discovery thing is really good in certain settings. Sounds like you found one where a little more direction might have been beneficial. Still time to learn all those extra finerings :-).
HRL
Post Edited (2004-01-06 23:29)
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Author: JimV
Date: 2004-01-07 05:10
Boy this is a long thread! I play jazz clarinet and was taught the alternative Bb fingerings. I have to say I use the sliver key a lot when doing up tempo songs and arpeggios in concert F. When in concert Ab I use the 1 and 1 or 1 and 2 a lot. I also have the luxury of the forked Bb on my clarinet. Try playing fast triplets Bb to G to Bb and adding F# and F in between the triplets. I would be total amazed if you can do that lick with the side key! I use the side key on slower songs but not always. Anyway as long as the student knows the alternative fingerings they can experiment with what works best in a given situation. As was said "easy for you, hard for me".
PS - If your clarinet will not play the 1 and 1 or the 1 and 2 solid and clear, better have someone look at it, it should.
Thanks
Jim
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2004-01-07 06:41
Well, Hank,
It seems we have started off some nice and longwinded discussion, high time so, for how long can one talk about which reed to use...(oh I see, quite some time amongst us woodwindplayers, but there are reasons for comprehending what it means to play the clarinet (or any instrument) on a more reflected niveau). And You´re right, the water´s fine, really...
I suspect people who corner You into brute rote learning and automatic functioning as far as playing an instrument is concerned, are mistaken. Only the crudest examples of behaviorism thought this as the high road to comprehensive reaction. What I didn´t get clearly enough so far is this differentiation between Deep and Surface Learning. The former distinguishes from the latter by this that the rat can give the reason why it jumped the button? I am quite certain that we both want a player to have all the possibilities of this toll called clarinet on the palm of his/her hand, and we want him/her to choose among them in the easiest and fastest way, so that as little as possible is used to answer "how do I do this" in favor of "this or that works best for me now", the meaning of "works best" sustained by mostly non-subjective assumptions, everything going into the realisation of the work of art. I admit that as far as music up to the 19th century is concerned a more or less rote way of responding to scored demands worked extremely well; the catalogue what was preferred, proper, simply right was down to intricate individualities of certain scores common ground, there was just one way, more or less (although the creative and the inventive at all times distinguished themselves by doing things differently, inventing, just for its own sake). But now, 20ieth century and 21st, it is common ground that every single composition is to be dealt with its own way, individually, extremely often demanding own solutions by the performer, one has to learn to play by playing it, head first so to say. Every performer becomes more and more a composer-performer (oh how I love it, honestly), and every interpretation sounds categorically, not only gradually, different, and this is the compository intention. Yes, there are only so many ways to play Bb, but the end of that ladder is reached all too soon; to make music doesn´t start after one went through so many preparatory stages - no, making music is already happening when they clack open the case and arrange the sheets (we often found wonderful preludes by fuzzing around thus, and consider the great Hespos, his work has many extremely difficult and plainly beautiful passages of sound for woodwinds that are derived from all this "getting ready to play"-stuff, e.g.). As soon as the sound can be heard, it is part of the work of art, the imporatant thing here is this awareness in performers, this responsibility that every sound is possible, and so they are responsible for every chaircreaking, sucking saliva and air out of the clarinet (consider Lachenmann´s "Dal Niente", or Karassikov´s pieces for windinstruments), every key-click (nasty thing, if one has to make a click, or several, and the clarinet, as it is the "preferred way", makes no keywork-sound at all...!) and so on. I played several time under the guidance of a performer-composer who screamed and whailed into the violin whilst playing, he was such an awesome and beatiful sight to behold and listen to during those passages, and he demands e.g. spasmodic movements of the performer during play, choking sounds, syllables, cries etc - all that is undoubtedly part of the 20ieth/21st -century instrumental technique, but neither learning method mentioned above can possibly teach those qulities but get out there and play as often and in full earnest as possible. My point is that those "exotics" aren´t exotic any more, if one doesn´t want to stick well-tempered scales, those candystores from Salzburg and all that overripe results of diverse romanticisms, we more and more have to say "it is up to you, show me what you think is fitting". There is no way of avoiding those "bumps on the road", methinks, - and honestly, I don´t think they´re snoring, are they? (I watched some golf on a European sports-channel, after reading Your posts...I think I would love to try this).
Markus
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Author: Alyra
Date: 2004-01-07 07:55
I've recently re-taken up clarinet - but I don't recall ever using the side-key fingering for Bb when I used to play it. Even now, having taken it up again I find the Bb bananna key oh so much easier...I tried today while I was practicing with the side keys and I just cannot do it!
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2004-01-07 09:44
And I find the side key MUCH easier, although I use the 1-and-1 quite often and the sliver key occasionally! As well as 'mind-sets' etc, I think that people's preferences must have a good deal to do with the shape of their hands and fingers.....
Joanna Brown
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-07 10:56
Hi Marcus,
Send me an email and we can discuss the concepts of Surface (a rote-type approach), Deep (the rat knows all), and the third dimension, Achieving (I will be first chair and/or I'll practice, practice, practice until I ...). The preliminary work was by Entwhistle in Australia. Fascinating stuff.
Good on you about the golf. You'll be able to play as long as you can swing a club. But remember, while John Daly can hit a ball 200 yards with a putter, it is not for everyone!
HRL
PS Yes, one would think that there were no more reed or which Bb fingering questions out there but ..... Let's rest a very good thread and save some band-width. Talk to you on email.
Post Edited (2004-01-08 03:15)
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Author: coasten1
Date: 2004-01-07 21:13
I have learned to use the banana figering for chromatic, but I seldom use it. I don't know if anyone else has wide fingertips. I find it clumsy to use the banana for the sole reason that the side of my third finger practically touches the banana when covering the 2nd tone hole. It is difficult for me to catch on to the key with my 4th because all I have room for is the side of my 4th finger to catch the key. My fingers have to touch for the key to go down without slipping off it. Maybe it is just a matter of getting used to.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-01-08 16:07
Some things are issues and some things are non-issues. My views are as follows.
1 - THE LAW OF PRIMACY IS COMMON SENSE. Any teacher in any field will tell you that presenting too many options at the outset of instruction promotes indecision and inhibits the abilityof the student to perform in real time. There HAVE to be defaults. These are side-Eb/Bb, one-finger F#, and 123/2 B/F#. They qualify as defaults because they can be approached from anywhere on the instrument, and can pass the test of functioning in a major scale, chromatic scale, scale-in-thirds, and arpeggios. Anything that does not function properly in one or more of these situations must be an alternate.
Banana Bb/Eb is an alternate because it presents difficulties with scales-in-thirds, and with arpeggios. It's not the fact that it's simply inferior to another fingering in these situations. It actually inserts considerable difficulty and a need for technical planning that breaks down the ability of a student to use it in real-time sight reading. It only works throughout the range of one scale, and that is the written Bb scale. It is not even appropriate for both octaves of the Eb scale.
Side-key Bb is a primary fingering because it can work in any situation--even one where another fingering would be superior. And actually, 1/1 Bb/Eb could squeak through as a primary. Ask any flute player (who has no side-key or 1/2 option), and many old-school sax players. I don't favor this, but note that 1/1 is the only Bb/Eb fingering that doesn't require any finger to shift position. Technically it better suits one of the best arguments that I've seen in favor of the banana key!
2. THE LEVEL OF TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION MUST SUIT THE NEEDS (note that I didn't say the 'wants') OF THE PERSON INSTRUCTED
We do not begin flight instruction with a multi-engine rating. Even military pilots start off in single-engine propeller-driven aircraft, which will at least glide in case of an engine failure. Most student pilots will never fly anything more than this, and I imagine that most will not even learn to fly by instrument. This is because the primary mission of every pilot is NOT TO CRASH THE PLANE. A weekend pilot putting in one to two hours per month doesn't need to know how helicopters or jets work. He just needs to fly his little puddle jumper safely.
As Meri points out, many band directors--even clarinet majors--stick with the primary fingerings. This is by far the greater wisdom, and I praise the restraint of those clarinet majors out there who know how to keep it simple. (Personally, I advocate labelling fingerings as either diatonic and chromatic at this age, but KISS gives the private teacher a clean slate)
These are people who understand that the primary job of any musician is NOT TO WRECK A PERFORMANCE. For band students who don't really practice or study privately, alternate fingerings can become a serious stumbling block. Usually this happens when 7th graders learn their Bb scale, and are told to use the sliver fingering as part of it. Easy songs, slow speeds, and kids who tongue EVERYTHING camoflauge situations where the fingering won't work. Start slurring a passage, speeding it up, etc., and that 'new and improved' fingering is a disaster. So the music is slowed back down and the kids get bushwacked when they start high school with bad habits. Why waste time on these alternates when we already have mandatory work to do with the pinkies?
Fingering issues are non-issues at young ages. We need to KISS and concentrate more on rhythm, expression and ear development. Band directors should deliver a functional student to the private instructor, so that the private instructor can deliver a fully competent player back to the band director.
3 - THE RESULTS ARE THE PROOF
We are seeing plenty of people in this thread admit that scores of side-Eb/Bb devotees are managing to make the fingering work quite well in all applications. No one is even attempting to make this claim with the fork fingering.
The funny thing about fork Eb/Bb as a primary fingering is that there are so many situations were it CAN'T go at all. To me, this negates its potential superiority in those few applications like the chromatic or Bb major scale. Even the 1/1 can go anywhere, and is often good for jumps of all kinds where both those fingers would be down--not just F/Bb or Bb/Eb.
As for the few situations where the fork fingering might be better, anyone who has experiemented with holding down the side key throughout a lick has found the better way.
4 - MY ONE CONCESSION TO THE "THEY'RE JUST DIFFERENT" FACTION
Sure. Let them try them all in a given situation. Make them play slurred, and keep speeding the passage up. That's usually how I present my case to students. But--wouldn't a default fingering come in handy for sightreading. And if you had to choose that default, which one would it be?
There is one situation however, where I'll agree that fork Eb/Bb is completely superior--PAGE TURNS!
Allen Cole
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-08 16:55
Quote:
I've used that fingering for that same reason MANY times. Defintely handy for that!![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-08 17:27
allencole...
Thanks.
As correct fingerings are one of my primary concerns in teaching clarinet, I had consciously stayed out of this thread, quietly becoming more amused at the number of uneducated and uninformed opinions offered by many of the people who offered to "help".
Finally, someone has summarized the correct fingering principles in a clear and lucid explanation.
I would hope these same people would make a copy of your last posting and tape it to their music stands.
Reading some of the fingering tenets of Bonade and Marcellus wouldn't hurt either...GBK
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-01-08 17:54
kai ora Allen Cole
in complete agreement with your posting except for one detail
the "left hand bannana key" Eflat/Bflat fingering is not a "forked" fingering- near the end of your posting you keep refering to "forked Bflat" and i'm pretty sure you mean "left hand bannan key" Bflat.....
this could produce confusion with readers as the 1/1 fingering IS a forked fingering. As 1/1 clearly would not be helpful when trying to do page turns (re end of post) i'm pretty sure you meant the left hand fingering in those last paragraphs.
donald
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-08 18:44
Allen Cole,
A terrific post. The "default fingering" concept is one that I think we all need to embrace and remember. Loved the page turn comment. A well crafted and a complete look at the whole, sordid Bb fingering thread :-).
You are right, all pilots do start on a SEL airplane and then progress to appropriate equipment for the task at hand; wonderful analogy about multi-engine (I'm a CFIME, do you have a ME rating?). Also correct about IFR; we all know what happens when an in-experienced pilot gets into IMC and losses control (JFK jr.).
Nice work as well, GBK. I knew you'd eventually get swept/drawn into the discussion. Your comment "quietly becoming more amused at the number of uneducated and uninformed opinions offered by many of the people who offered to 'help' " really scores a bullseye.
I think we have, with allen and GBK's posts, done this thread pretty well in.
HRL
Post Edited (2004-01-08 19:06)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-01-09 00:21
Thanks for the kinds words guys. Can you tell that I've had a few argumentative students in the past? <g> I try to pounce on this issue because so many of the fork/banana/sliver Eb/Bb's proponents seem to have been conditioned at an early age by an insistent teacher.
Most of my students learned it as part of their Bb major scale during middle school. During the first couple of years of band, that scale is often the only application for an Eb at all. Things go so slow that the students don't trip up even playing a scale in thirds. (often because the band director makes them tongue everything in order to have some semblance of rhythm) By 8th or 9th grade, the stumbling block fully emerges. This is one reason why I've become so enthusiastic about taking on beginners.
Hank, I am not a pilot but I like to listen to the all the fighter planes in eastern VA on my radio scanner. The desire to understand what I'm hearing has led to me becoming a full-blown aviation buff. Would love to learn to fly, but would probably get way too absorbed in looking out the window to be a safe pilot. But learning about aviation and avionics has made it very fun to fly from my armchair.
GBK, where can I find commentary by Bonade and Marcellus? I researched this issue a few years ago and all I could find on the internet was a Marcellus interview in which he quoted Bonade as saying that the index-finger F# is THE F#. I have read the fingering info in The Art of Clarinet Playing (Stein), The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing (Pino) and the Clarinet (Brymer), but didn't feel that any of these guys really wanted to address fingering technique beyond the most general guidelines. (were they afraid to alienate the fork faction?)
I am frequently in need of ammo to press this point with students, and sometimes with band directors. Although I've developed some skill in arguing this issue, I am not an authority. Like a politician, I can only go so far on logic. I need the opinion of a celebrity!
Donald, are you sure that it's wrong to call this a fork fingering? After all, it's the same combination of index and ring fingers that goes into fork B/F#.
Allen Cole
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-09 04:27
Quote:
Donald, are you sure that it's wrong to call this a fork fingering? After all, it's the same combination of index and ring fingers that goes into fork B/F#. Not the exact same combination of fingers.
In my mind a fork fingering seems to be where there would be a "gap" or in other words where one or more fingers are skipped over before putting another down. So there could be a "fork B-natural/F#" for the right hand, the one and one Bb would be a fork, the standard? altissimo G and altissimo Eb would be fork fingerings, etc. The sliver key Bb/Eb doesn't seem to fit the fork description. It's more like a spatula in my head.
Incidentally, there would be a fork Bb/Eb if you happen to have a full boehm with a seven ring system (GBK pointed out to me in a previous post that the purpose of that ring is to allow the option of a fork Bb/Eb and it's not for the articulated C#/G# as I once thought).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-09 04:48
"'Common sense' is just another term for the prejudices we grew up with."
-- Stephen W. Hawking
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-09 12:58
GBK,
And I thought this thread had run its course. The string with Gregory Smith talking about the chromatic F/F# fingering and the Rose measure is excellent. However, there is a caution that reader should not take the advice out of context (if it works here, it should work here). Such a transposition may not always be correct.
Gaining facilty with the flip-fingering, mostly in legato section, is a must but the player or better yet, the teacher should have a few cautions about exclusive use.
HRL
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-01-09 14:30
"Gaining facilty with the flip-fingering, mostly in legato section, is a must "
I come from a completely different school of playing. It is physically impossible to play a proper legato from F-F# using this flip-fingering. I would play every single legato between these two notes using the sliver key. I was taught a techinique to slide onto, or off, the sliver key. It is difficult to explain here without demonstrating. Suffice it to say that it is very effective, and facilitates a much better legato than the flip-fingering.
The same questions come up regarding German system fingerings. When teaching students on German system I encourage them to use the side fingering for legato between high B and C, rather than using the forked C fingering. This goes against the traditional German style of fingering, which claims that the forked C has a better sound. Actually the difference in sound quality is negligable, but the difference in legato quality is huge!
As an advocate for the use of "chromatic" fingerings to facilitate true legato playing, I suggest everybody try the following experiment:
Round up a group of musicians that play any instrument other than clarinet. Play the opening of 'Der Hirt auf dem Felsen', once using the standard fingering for high Db, and once using the two side trill keys. Many clarinetists would be reluctant to use the two side keys because of the "inferior" quality of this tone. But I guarantee that the non-clarinetists will prefer the "chromatic" fingering because of the far superior legato.
The same is true for F-F# in throat and clarion registers.
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Author: donald
Date: 2004-01-09 18:16
one day in the 21st century this thread will END....
but i MUST add one more...
sfAlexi is right where "forked fingerings" are concerned- it doesn't matter that much, and i really did think that Mr Cole pretty much said it all... but a forked fingering is where.... i don't need to say it- sfa did
just think of F# or Bflat on the recorder- these are forked fingerings
if you look at the left hand key vrs right hand key from an acoustical viewpoint, they are nearly identical and neither is a forked fingering. In general forked fingerings don't work that well on the clarinet, especially in the lower register. This is a significant factor when working with "early clarinets" (with their fewer keys)- even on a 5 key clarinet a chromatic scale is possible in the top register, but pretty disasterous sounding in the lower register (due to that fact that you need to use.... FORKED FINGERINGS)
.....but this is "tiny little wafer" added to what hopefully is the END of this thread, and i fear if we have another i might explode.
donald
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-09 19:09
Licquorice,
Check out the thread from GBK about Gregory Smith's comments on the F to F# legato issue. Using the flip flingering is his idea, not mine.
HRL
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Author: claren11
Date: 2004-01-09 20:22
The banana key is all I have ever seen in any fingering charts or practice books. In fact, no alternative fingering has ever been offered.
Until reading the BBoard, this is the first I have heard of the knuckle key for Bb fingering. Why is that? Has this something to do with where you live? I am in Rockford, Illinois.
Post Edited (2004-01-09 20:25)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-01-09 21:19
Hank, I did read the thread with Gregory Smith's comments, and I completely disagree with what he and HAT had to say in it.
HAT: "There is only one good way to finger this, and it means using the proper 'normal' fingering for the f#. "
This is not true. Using the two side keys is a better way to finger it.
HAT: "if you are going to play the clarinet well you MUST be able to produce a perfect legato between the thumb 'f' and the first finger 'f#.' "
This is physically impossible. And no matter how close you get to it, you'll never be able to play as good a legato as you can using the 2 side keys.
GS: "The Bb/Eb fingering you speak of is a chromatic fingering. Descending to the C below the staff from this fingering would of course be impossible."
Not true. If you place the third finger on the hand-side of the sliver key, it's possible to slide the finger down onto the hole when slurring from B-flat down to C. It wouldn't be my first choice of fingering, but with practise it can be done without any problems. In the same way one could slur from F# (clarion) to D. So for the combination F-F#-D one can get a much better legato using this method than by using the "flip-fingering" method.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-01-09 22:35
Claren11, what books have you used? I would be curious to know that they're using for early instruction in Rockford. I still have distant relatives in Ogle County.
GBK, thanks for the link! I'm going to try to find a way to save that somehow. I often think that we become technical wonks from our constant study of exercises designed for OUR instrument. I am coming more and more to believe that we need to encounter something like the Clarke Technical Studies or the Arban book in order confront the true realities that we face in a sight-reader's world. Still, I wish that advice on this subject were more frequently published--perhaps in an updated version of the Rubank, Klose, Lazarus, etc.
JMcaulay - I have to say that I'm amused by the Stephen Hawking quote, given the subject of our discussion. I think Prof. Hawking would be the first to agree that he has not yet walked a mile in our moccasins.
Allen Cole
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-09 22:54
allencole wrote:
> I am coming more and more to believe that we need
> to encounter something like the Clarke Technical Studies or the
> Arban book in order confront the true realities that we face in
> a sight-reader's world.
How true! I've mentioned before that I have been supplementing my students' lessons with the Arban Method. A feature that I like about the Arban book is that all the exercises, melodies, duets, themes and variations, etc... all lie (for the most part) between C4 and C6, thus the student gets to build technical skills in the most used clarinet register.
Also, the student finally gets to use his scales and arpeggio training in real life melodic situations ...GBK
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-01-09 23:08
If an instructor or student discounts the importance of alternate fingerings, SHOW them the drills in the Rubank Advanced volumes. SHOW them the drills in the Baermann books. The fact that there are drills for them show them to be important. SHOW them the spots where these fingerings are taught in the Rubank Beginner book (yes they are taught in this beginner's method book).
The alternate fingerings are shown in almost every fingering chart I have ever seen except for the very basic fingering charts used in the simplest beginner's books.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-01-10 14:06
Of course the alternates are important, and of course they are included on fingering charts. No one here has advocated eliminating them. The majority of this thread has been a discussion of the fact that they are indeed 'alternate'--as opposed to primary.
Secondarily, we've discussed the advantages of defaulting to primary fingerings for students who lack private instruction.
But I challenge you to show me one serious exercise which contrasts side-key vs. banana/sliver Eb/Bb in the Rubank Elementary. In fact, its fingering chart uses the same code (#7, I think) for BOTH keys.
I know of only three which even involve it: L.16 #5, L.17 #1 and L.25 #5. Only the one in L.25 would illustrate a difference between the fingerings. This is pretty poor for a book designed for two years of instruction. My students learn more about this in their second-year band books than they would in Rubank Elementary.
For my money, the best time to delve deeply in these fingerings is in L.18 of Rubank Intermediate.
No one is saying that an advanced player shouldn't know their alternate fingerings. But if some only could only have one Eb/Bb, only one B/F#, and only one throat F#, which should they choose? Like it or not, this is true of many young players who lack private instruction.
Allen Cole
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-01-10 19:37
My comments were addressed to a post where the person had contact with an instructor who mandated a certain one as being the only one to use and yes this does happen.
Now as to which is primary, that is largely a matter of opinion. However if one were to look the way in which keys were added to clarinets, the side Bb/EB would not be primary. It is designated as a so-called "trill key" although I consider it much more important than just a trill key. If I had to pick a "primary" fingering, it would be the banana key as it keeps everything in one hand.
Now as to the Rubank Elementary book. Granted it does not drill extensively on the various fingerings, it just introduces them and shows some places to use them. However this is more than I've seen in the various band books used in the schools that my children attended. Since we moved quite a bit, I had the opportunity to see several different series of books. The really intensive drills do indeed come in the later volumes. Now one of the posters had made the point that introducing too many alternates at once is a problem. I agree with that. What the Rubank Beginner volume does is introduce these over the course of the book and gives some basic drilling not intensive drilling. However when the student gets done with it, he/she has at least been introduced to these alternates so that they don't get stuck on only one fingering and resist others.
The Bb/Eb, in my opinion, is somewhat unique in that these three fingerings are of almost equal importance in effectively playing clarinet music. I would hate to do without any of them.
On the other hand: For the B/F#, I could cope with the banana key fingering and sliding if I had to choose. For the F# just below the throat G, I'd choose the side key version if I had to pick only one. Still I prefer to have the choice and use what fits the pattern of the piece. Afterall there was a reason the keys were added to clarinets.
While I think more students should have private instruction, better method books for school band would help a lot. I did not have private instruction in my school years. Our band director did give like instrument lessons in addition to teaching the band as a whole. He was not a clarinetist so could not really advise us well on the details of the clarinet BUT he chose the Rubank series and required us to do the drills AS PRINTED in the books. Thus if the drill called for key X, that's what we had to use to get a passing grade on that exercise.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-01-11 22:42
Dee,
That's very interesting. You would choose--if it boiled down to a single choice--banana/sliver Eb/Bb, side-key F#, and fork B/F#--as your primary fingerings. You've told me in the past that you were conditioned to banana/sliver Bb/Eb at a very early age. Is the same true of these other fingerings?
On better method books for band, which ones have you encountered? What aspects would you want to see improved? Is it the alternate fingering issue that primarily bothers you about them, or are there additional issues that you take exception to?
Personally, I am acquainted with Standard of Excellence, Accent on Achievement and Essential Elements 2000. Standard of Excellence was the one that I turned to as an alternative to Rubank Elementary. I like these much better than the older band books but this might be something on which we won't agree.
Allen Cole
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-01-12 00:15
Correction: I said that on the Bb/Eb, I really couldn't make a choice as to which it would be if I could only have one. On the others, you are correct.
I was introduced to three Bb/Eb fingerings within the first year of playing (Rubank Elementary book). These were reinforced slightly in the Rubank Intermediate book and drilled extensively in the finger twisters in the Rubank Advanced books and in the Klose book.
What bothers me is when I see my section mates in community band struggling to smooth out a passage simply because they know no other fingerings. Naturally I help but it just saddens me that they were never taught these things. Now I'm not talking about all possible alternates, just a handful of the most useful ones. Some of them seem unaware that there are even alternates to pick from.
Actually I think beginners in the school setting should have like instrument classes only for the first year or two rather than a full band. What I find objectionable is that the full band methods slight everything. There really is no point in having a 5th and 6th grade band. The band should be introduced when the students have some fundamental facility.
My daughter's band used Standard of Excellence and if the teacher has no choice but to start the 5th and 6th graders as a band, it is probably better than most that attempt to have the teacher instruct the entire band as a group but as far as doing a good job of teaching the individual instruments, it doesn't.
There is no escaping the dull drills if one wants to really get good. Rubank, Klose, Baermann, Pares Scales and so on do this. Now good instructor can strike a balance between the hard work material and the fun material but that means the instructor doing a lot more to search out music and integrate it into the teaching than perhaps they have time for.
What I did with my daughters was to take them to private lessons making sure that the instructor used a method that met my standards. Then to balance the fun with the work, I would buy them music of their choosing for playing around with such as the music from "The Little Mermaid" or "Alladin" and so on. If they wanted me to play duets, I'd drop whatever I was doing and play duets as another form of encouragement.
The result was that both were the best players in their respective school bands at the time and both enjoyed playing. Unfortunately the older one eventually switched to oboe and the younger one focused on piano. But at least they had the background and understanding to continue to play and enjoy music.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-01-12 09:16
I don't think that it's all that difficult to bring in more interesting material. I find that Belwin's Tunes for Clarinet Technic, and Alfred's Learn to Play Clarinet duets help tremendously without requiring a lot of search. One only has to become familiar with their contents, and I don't know why any teacher would not take the time. Once the R&D is done, it lasts for years.
But that means multiple books for each student. Most of my younger ones have four. But they are fairly cheap, parents don't object, and the music stores are supportive for obvious reasons.
Allen Cole
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2004-01-12 23:12
I don't like to beat a dead horse but here goes: All you folks who advocate the use of the side key, how do you play the cadenza in the 2nd mvt. of Scheherazade? ¿Do you honestly think that you can play faster, cleaner, and with more freedom using the side key than with the banana key? Just wondering.
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Author: SaraSoda
Date: 2004-01-13 05:16
whenever possible i use the side key, no matter how difficult it may be. maybe this is just on my personal clarinet, but i always get a better tone when i use the side key
[in the year 2000] when it is discovered that it takes exactly 437 licks to get to the center of a tootsie pop, it will be announced that science is officially over.
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Author: clarinet_mike
Date: 2004-01-14 00:44
I know three fingerings for that certain Bb and depending on the situation I'll switch between two of them. In a couple pieces I switch them around. In a piece called Hill Country Holiday which my band at Las Vegas Academy is perparing I use the sliver with my left index finger, banana key, in order to give a quick motion. I also use that finger for A to Bb trails in music, I just find it easier. For a different piece called Into The Raging River I use the bottom key of those four on the side, I forget what they're called, but I use that one for things where I do have the ablity to cleanly move to Bb, in the piece I go from Ab to Bb back to Ab in a two sixteenth eighth note pattern.
It's just whatever you feel works and sounds the best for that situation, obvious if it's a slow moving piece you want the one that will produce the darkest or richest sound. The case may be different in an Allegro piece.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-14 01:17
clarinet_mike wrote:
> I use the bottom key of those four on the
> side, I forget what they're called, but I use that one for
> things where I do have the ablity to cleanly move to Bb, in the
> piece I go from Ab to Bb back to Ab in a two sixteenth eighth
> note pattern.
For Ab5 to Bb5 (and back) quickly, why don't you just play Ab5 with the standard fingering and then lift the 1st finger of the left hand to get Bb5? ...GBK
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Author: Dee
Date: 2004-01-14 03:14
To GBK:
Unfortunately no one teaches the trill from clarion Ab to Bb. Although large fingering charts and fingering books do show it, there is only one place in the more common books that I have seen that specifically shows this as the way to trill here and that is the trill chart the Rubank Advanced volumes.
I've ended up teaching this to some very competent players in various community bands that I've belong when it has come up in various pieces.
In the bands that I've been in, this trill crops up about once or twice a year.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-14 04:45
Dee ... The Ab5 to Bb5 trill is shown in the Langenus Method, Part 1- page 49.
It is also shown on the separate fingering chart which is enclosed with the book.
I do agree that this is an important trill fingering which should be taught as soon as the student begins playing in Eb major ...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-14 10:53
GBK,
What Dee has stated was the case with me also. I was only taught this trill when it popped up in a piece of music I was working on and I asked the clarinet instructor at my school for help. He suggested that. Another important trill (comes up in Bb major) is clarion Eb to F. holding the Eb and lifting the second or third finger.
It's amazing how many little tips and "cheats" there are on this instrument. I love it! There's always something to learn!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: vin
Date: 2004-01-14 16:44
Elmo Lewis- To answer your question, yes, I am going to use the side fingering in Scherezade next week in a concert, yes, I have plenty of facility with it (certainly more than the banana key), and, yes, I have seen many other professional clarinetists use the side key. I even know one clarinetist in a top 5 orchestra who had the banana key removed off his e-flat clarinet because "I never use it and it just gets in the way." Good enough for me.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2004-01-14 17:24
A few weeks ago, near the beginning of this thread, I wrote:
"Learn your Clarinet. Try it out. Know as many fingerings as you can. Understand that not all Clarinets can use the same fingerings equally well. And keep your own chart."
I suggest that no one should be a slave to anyone else's fingering chart. "Oh, I didn't know that fingering; it's not on the chart" seems a rather weak excuse for playing a stilted and rough passage.
Fail to experiment with our favorite instrument, and you will stay at the mercy of charts built by others. In developing your own fingerings, it helps to understand at least something about the instrument's acoustics, so why not learn something in that area?
Regards,
John
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The Clarinet Pages
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