 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-06-26 15:15
Does anyone have a list of the French "stencil" clarinets, the brand names, and their characteristics?
For instance, I have four that I think fit in this category. One is a Thibouville / Masson, with all four pieces stamped. The left hand low E/F# pinkie keys are Buffet style (fit into a hole). The register key is also Buffet style.
2. Andre Chabot, same style left pinkie keys, but strange register key. Shiny finish on the keywork.
3. Brittany, Selmer underneath lever left hand pinkie keys, but the same strange register key of #2.
4. No name anywhere, but keywork looks identical to #1.
I have a Malerne Standard on the way.
One post on this bulletin board said that Malerne made many of these from !940-60. But some other posts seem to place them earlier. One post said there were 18 different brands made by Thibouville.
Does anyone have more complete information?
Thanks,
Phil
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2008-06-26 21:44
I have a stencil from Paris France that I bought in 1955. It was made by F. Buisson for the Dallas, London, Company. It is made from Granadilla wood and I am still impressed with it's sound.
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Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-06-26 22:26
Was that new in 1955?
What kind of left pinkie keys does it have?
And does the register key look like a Buffet one?
That's one brand down. 17 more to go!
Thanks!
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-06-27 07:39
I have a very nice Guy Humphrey clarinet in A, but the logo looks like it was stamped in a very sloppy way. I have no idea how old it is. Is this a 'stencil'?
Steve
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-06-27 14:28
GBK, Didn't we have a thread on back re: stencilled names ? I recall many discussions of Malerne made clarinets, which an easy Search [here above] should retrieve, Phil P, Are you at all related to the early 1900's Pedler Co which made many cls, my cousin had one in the 1930's, and I've seen a few !? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Bill
Date: 2008-06-27 18:42
Guy Humphrey and Linton, both considered stencils (AFAIK), were graced with high-quality QS Chedeville mouthpieces (stamped otherwise, of course).
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-06-27 18:46
-- "Guy Humphrey and Linton, both considered stencils (AFAIK), were graced with high-quality QS Chedeville mouthpieces " --
Aha, that makes sense.
My Guy Humphrey clarinet arrived without a mouthpiece!
Steve
PS It's probably worth a lot more than the clarinet!
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Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-06-28 00:27
Replying to Don,
There have been some rambling threads with information about Malerne clarinets. I am trying to assemble the various pieces of information at my web site.
I already had this from you:
fragment from Don Berger at woodwind.org:
...Malerne, who made many of the "stencilled" cls of that time period 40-60's. If, perhaps, the wood bodies were machined in France, and the keywiork put on here in the US, the neighboring [to NYC]] makers were Penzel-Mueller on Long Island, Pruefer, Pedler, and Bettoney in New England.
That is from http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=275320&t=275226 which started out about Woodwind Co, NY clarinets.
Insure2020 included this information in the same thread:
Martin Denis’s other son, Eugène (b 1832; d Ivry-la-Bataille, 1891), established his own firm by 1855 in Paris; by 1862 it was located in Ivry-la-Bataille as ‘Noblet & Thibouville’. This was succeeded in 1886 or 1887 by ‘Eugène Thibouville et fils’, the two sons being Adrien (b Ivry-la-Bataille, 1855) and Camille (b Ivry-la-Bataille, 1864). By 1890 it was called ‘les fils d’Eugène Thibouville’ and in 1909 ‘Thibouville frères’, which continued, after 1910, under the management of Adrien’s younger son George (b Ivry-la-Bataille, 1886; d Ivry-la-Bataille, 1957), passing in 1957 to Maurice Masson. The woodwind instruments made by Thibouville frères could also be stamped on request with the mark of any of 18 different clients.
So do stencil clarinets start a lot earlier than 1940? And what are the characteristics of these instruments? I assume they changed over time or had different models. Does anyone know how to tell them apart?
So far I have these names:
* Thibouville Frères
* Malerne
* Andre Chabot
* M Masson (Maurice)
* Woodwind Co. NY
* A. Fontaine
* Couesnon Monopole
* F. Buisson (Dallas, London)
* Guy Humphrey (with high-quality QS Chedeville mouthpieces)
* Linton with high-quality QS Chedeville mouthpieces)
* Brittany ??
* Alexandre ??
About my last name, Don, Pedler is not my real name. At my web page I tell why I am using a pseudonym. At the time I started that site, I was working on a nice Pedler unibody clarinet. I wonder now if some of the Pedler wooden clarinets were stencil models!
Phil
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-06-28 04:28
So do stencils start earlier than 1940?
Indeed they do. Much earlier. I have a C-clarinet labeled Bay States. Removing the keys reveals, in very small but neat script, the name Laubé stamped in gold on each of the joints. According to Langwill's, Laubé ceased operations (if memory serves) in 1898. I expect stencils were probably around before that.
There are stencils with apparently made-up names, usually French, like Buisson or Guy Humphrey; stencils with the name of a music store that carried them as its private line, like Bay States; and stencils made by one instrument manufacturer for another so that the second company could fill out its product line. For example, Linton is an Elkhart manufacturer that has been in business for many years and is still in business today. The company is known primarily for double reeds but it also made plastic student clarinets around the 60's and 70's (and an unusual plastic clarinet d'amore). The company wanted to include harmony clarinets and professional models in its line but didn't have the capacity to produce them so it imported wooden clarinets made by Malerne and Buffet between around 1960 and 1972. Malerne also made instruments for Conn, Olds, and others.
For more examples of stencils (though be aware that there are some questionable items in the list), you might want to take a look here:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HasAnyoneHeard.html
Of the manufacturers and models on your list, the following are not stencils (though some of them made stencils): Thibouville Frères, Malerne (sometimes I find it hard to believe that they had the capacity to make all the instruments that have been attributed to them), Couesnon (Monopole was a professional model they made, generally pretty highly regarded as far as I can tell).
And to muddy the waters a little, also keep in mind that prior to WWII, there were numerous small manufacturers in the La Couture district. In fact, some of the so-called stencils may actually have been their clarinets. These makers often moonlighted at larger factories and probably purchased component parts from larger manufacturers (joints, keys, barrels, bells, etc.) which they then assembled in their shops or even homes. (I was told this by Jack Linton.) So, the fact that two instruments are similar in appearance or have similar keywork does not necessarily mean that they were made by the same manufacturer.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-06-28 14:05
What a fine "get it together" thread this has become !, a Keeper, GBK ? Reading Phil's and Jack's lengthy-but-complete posts answers many/most ?questions about this long-time manufacturing-marketing practice, and the multiplicity of names of generally "intermediate" and some professional-grade clarinets. One of my prizes is a 19/7 [no low Eb] Pruefer wood single [uni?] body wood, which is prob. destined to the NMM in Vermillion, if Debbi wants it ?? I've wondered about its ancestry, possibly USA?, but likely, IMHO, French, which were then the very best. Just rambling, AM thots. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-06-29 00:54
Thanks, Jack!
I have updated my list with some information I found at various eBay auctions, some conjecture, and from the HasAnyoneHeard page. More questions below.
I am considering that these are pretty sure:
* Martin Freres Lamonte Grenatex
* Andre Chabot
* A. Fontaine
* Andre Bardot Artiste, Paris
* Emil Jardin
* Guy Humphrey Le Superieur, Paris (with high-quality QS Chedeville mouthpieces (stamped otherwise, of course))
* Jeuffroy
* Jean Barre
* Jean Cartier
* Raymond, Paris
* F. Buisson (Dallas, London)
* Henri Farni Model Superieur, Paris
From the HasAnyoneHeard page at woodwind.org.
* Champlaine US Government; exported from Paris
* Greville US Government (Paris import)
* Guy Renne US Government (Paris import)
* Henri Frenier US Government (imported)
* Henry Mekel US Government - imported from Paris
* Labori US Government - imported from Paris
* Lacroix, M. US Government - imported from Paris
* M. Dupont Sears Roebuck & Co. (French imports) post 1918
* Le Maire US Government - imported from Paris
French made but marketed with American names:
* Bay States (also stamped Laubé)
* Linton with high-quality QS Chedeville mouthpieces (stamped otherwise, of course))
* Woodwind Co. NY
* Conn
* Olds
Questionable/Probable:
* Brittany ??
* Alexandre ??
* Henri Dubois
Can we divide stencil clarinets between the actual makers? (See Jack's paragraph below the web link.)
*Thibouville to Masson (Insure2020 made this sound like main stencil maker. But Jack says Thibouville is not one.)
*Malerne (Don's post would make this the main maker, but Jack listed Malerne as not a stencil maker.)
*Couesnon (who made clarinets under several names according to the HasAnyoneHeard page).
Jack, obviously I'm confused. Who was the main stencil maker? Or is it just anyone buying parts and working out of their homes or late at night at someone else's plant?
Which maker made which names when??
It would be nice to get a better idea what dates certain names were manufactured.
And, showing my ignorance of history: Why did the US government feel the need to import French clarinets?
I fix old wood clarinets as a hobby, so I couldn't resist buying five stencil clarinets recently. They'll be fun to fix up. But it seems to me that it will be pretty hard to sell them again. I can easily sell restored Normandys, Noblets, Signets, etc. But I think the market will be pretty slim for restored weird-name clarinets! Any suggestions?
Thanks for your help in my research!
Phil
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
Post Edited (2008-06-29 01:03)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-06-29 03:24
I'm sorry. I was apparently unclear in what I said about Malerne. I never intended to imply that Malerne did not make stencils. They absolutely did. What I intended to convey was that clarinets (and oboes) labeled Malerne are not stencils. However Malerne did make stencils for Linton (Eb and bass clarinets), Conn and Olds (bass clarinets). Vytas Krass has also provided compelling evidence that Malerne was the manufacturer of any Buffet Evette & Schaeffer clarinet that doesn't have a K-prefix to its serial number. In a thread referenced below, Dave Spiegelthal lists some others. My comment about Malerne's capacity was actually in response to the fact that, recently, virtually every time someone has raised a question about a French-made clarinet that might have been a stencil, someone else has proposed that the maker was Malerne. I think I did some digging into the Malerne history a number of years ago and found some information. (My first wood clarinet was a Malerne.) At the time, I think I posted some of my findings on the Klarinet list. If you search for Malerne and my name on this Board and the Klarinet List Archives, you may find what I said. (Sorry, it's been so long ago, I don't remember everything I found.)
Some further clarification. Bay States was a music store (I want to say somewhere in the northeast, maybe Boston). While the Bay States clarinet I have is marked Laubé, it's my understanding that they, like many other stores that carried store-name stencils, bought from many different suppliers over the years, sometimes changing from year-to-year.
Le Maire is probably an error on the list. It probably should be Lemaire, in which case it is not a stencil but rather the intermediate model made by SML, a woodwind company founded in Paris in 1934 by three partners, Strasser, Marigaux and Lemaire. This company is best known, nowadays, for Marigaux oboes and english horns but, for many years they also made clarinets and saxophones. SML purchased the Malerne factory in 1975. The presence of "Le Maire" on the list suggests that not all of the instruments on the list are necessarily stencils, some were merely imports. (The presence of Noblet on this list further supports this argument.) Googling will lead you to more historical information (key words to include are marigaux sml malerne factory cicetti nora post in different combinations).
One reason the U.S. government imported French clarinets is probably the same reason it still does -- military bands. Our government still provides Buffet and Selmer instruments (among others) for military bands. There may be other reasons as well.
About a year ago we went through some discussion of stencils. You might want to take a look at:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=248131&t=248050
One of the comments in that list is that, at this point, in most cases we're likely never to know for sure who made what when. Too much of the history is lost.
It seems to me that the next logical step in your research should be to do a search (on this Board, on the Klarinet List Archives and perhaps on the internet) for each of the specific names you have on your list. You will probably find sufficient evidence to convince you of the bloodlines of some of the models. Others will likely be inconclusive.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2008-06-29 15:32)
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2008-06-29 23:52
I have a Henri Gunckel (Paris) metal clarinet. The only reference I can find on Google to that name indicates it is a stencil clarinet.
It would need a lot of pads to be playable, but it is a nice lamp.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-10-29 16:16
I had the impression that Le Maire as two words was stencil brand with no relation to Lemaire of S.M.L. Many have appeared labeled as such (Le Maire) on ebay. From the list above, Alexandre ("Paris") was also a stencil brand, from what I have found on the web. I do not think it has any relation to Alexandre Selmer, as some occasionally suggest.
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2008-10-30 02:52
"I wonder now if some of the Pedler wooden clarinets were stencil models!"
Me too!
I have two Pedler full-boehm Bb clarinets, both "THE PEDLER" not "HARRY PEDLER." One is wood, with serial number W91xx and the other is rubber, serial number E136xx. I got the wood one a few years ago; its barrel and bell have the Pedler cartouche but neither of the main joints do. I wondered whether the pieces even belonged together -- at the time I had never seen another Pedler with W serial number (and also had never seen another full-boehm Pedler). My guess was that it was a real Pedler-sold instrument (i.e. not a Frankenstein) but presumably a stencil. I got the rubber one just this year; it is marked on all pieces. Although the forked Eb/Bb is different (independent on the wood one, connected to the second ring on the rubber), the hardware is otherwise very similar and quite ideosyncratic. Now I'm assuming they are both really made by Pedler, but it's just a barely-educated guess.
They play pretty well, but the keywork feels unergonomic to me. The rod that the lower-joint rings are on is strangely high.
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Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-10-30 17:55
Does your Pedler full-Boehm look anything like the one on my web page?
The link is http://clarinetpages.wetpaint.com/page/Pedler+unibody+B+flat
I take it that yours are not unibody models. I did a tiny bit of research on Harry Pedler at the time I wrote the page above. (My real name is not Pedler as you can see at my web site home page.)
Mine said Elkart IND Primiere, but since other stencil horns were branded with USA names, I think that is no indication of where the instrument was made. The keys could have come from Germany while the body might have been made in France, and the instrument assembled in Elkart. But who knows anymore?
Also, do you think the non-wood one is rubber? I would guess bakelite.
I have a THE PEDLER on my wall in front of me, but it is not a full-Boehm. The rod/bar holding the rings for the right hand are quite low, lower than most.
Some THE PEDLER key work has seemed soft to me. This one seems OK.
Phil
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
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Author: Phil Pedler
Date: 2008-10-31 15:52
Thanks to modernicus also for the helpful clarification about Le Maire and Lemaire.
I wish we knew more about Alexandre. I had a plastic Alexandre (shown under Plastic > Vintage, at my web site). I really liked it.
Is your hunch about Alexandre Selmers not being related to Alexandre stencils based on time period, instrument characteristics, or other information?
Thanks!
Phil Pedler
clarinetpages.wetpaint.com
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-10-31 17:38
The Alexandre brand name seems to be fairly mysterious. I wouldn't doubt that maybe Alexandre Selmer did make some clarinets with his own name if somebody out there is claiming as such. However, I think the fairly common Alexandre Paris instruments out there that pop up on the auction site and the subject of questions on various different formus, etc.., are a separate stencil brand. I have seen or heard of wood, hard rubber, metal, or plastic clarinets with this name, marked made in U.S.A, Germany (Schreiber?), or no country of origin. I read on the web somebody asking about an Alexandre flute (Made in Italy IIRC?) and the flute expert said it was a worthless stencil. Apparently the Alexandre saxaphones are marked made in Italy, and maybe not that good. However, I have seen nothing bad in any forums where people reported on the playing characteristics of the Alexandre clarinets at all, quite the contrary in fact. Lastly, I just last night received my ebay Alexandre Paris metal clarinet. I had been researching it after seeing it listed, and had seen a very similar clarinet marked Kleartone Paris Professional. I consulted www.clarinette-metal.fr and indeed, they are listed as both being identical stencils (possily made by Bettony, but not a duplicate of one of their own models? Raises the question of A. Selmer assocation as well. Mine says "France" on all joints, though it is indeed in quotations on the instrument...) www.silver-clarinet.com lists Alexandre as a stencil brand ranging from student to professional level.
Post Edited (2008-11-01 13:46)
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2008-11-03 13:35
"Does your Pedler full-Boehm look anything like the one on my web page?"
What's usually called full boehm would include low Eb and the Ab/Eb lever for left pinky. Mine have those features along with the articulated C#/G# and forked Eb/Bb, and have separate upper and lower joints. There are some other details in the hardware that are different, like the little protective housing for the top trill key is alike on both of mine but different from on yours.
"Also, do you think the non-wood one is rubber?"
The upper and lower joint are definitely hard rubber. The barrel and bell, especially the bell, may be plastic; they do not have the slight yellowing that the body has and the texture of the bell is, under close inspection, noticeably different than the rest.
I'll try to post some pictures tonight.
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Author: Robertoes
Date: 2011-09-30 03:28
Phil,
I went to your website - http://www.clarinetpages.wetpaint.com/ - and it said to ask you for a request to join. I guess I'd like to join!
I have several silver/metal clarinets that I'm restoring, including a Silva-bet and I used to be a woodwind player (clarinet, Tenor Sax, Baritone sax).
Anyway,
Thanks!
Robert
Buffet Bb R13
Evette-Schaeffer Bb
Auguste Buffet Bb Enhanced Boehm (circa 1920's)
Selmer Silver Bb Full Boehm (Nov 1930)
C.G. Conn Metal HP Bb Double Wall (1895)
Silva-Bet Silver Enhanced Boehm Bb (1930)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2011-09-30 06:47
Hi, Robertoes:
Phil is currently unavailable until at least Oct. 22nd. I suggest you wait 'til the last week of October, then fill out the inquiry form on Clarinetpages requesting membership.
I'm also a clarinetpages member, currently researching the early Normandy line of soprano clarinets, and I also share your interest in vintage metal clarinets. I'd sure like to get my hands on a good working Silva-Bet someday, as well as a Boston Wonder, another Bettoney metal equipped with rolled tone holes.
Cheers,
Greg
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2011-09-30 11:26
well since it's reopened:
Martin Freres LaMonte grenatex - not a stencil.
Masson successor to Thibouville Freres (at Ivry-la-bataille) - not a stencil
Henry Gunckel - a Buffet stencil
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-09-30 12:41
If there's nothing in the Klarinet archives, another way to find out that some clarinets with unfamiliar names are stencils is to Google that brand name + "store." Then try + "shop." Often, those stencilled brand names are the names of the stores that sold the instruments. Maybe Google will turn up a link referring to a music store with that same name. Some well-known old stores turn up in Wikipedia with surprising amounts of information -- fanatics for those businesses may post links to antique advertising and even catalogues. If the label includes a state, try old phone directories for the major cities.
Once you know you've got a store brand, then the trick is to find out where the store got the instruments. That can be much more difficult, although sometimes that information can turn up without much trouble, too. For instance, a search of the Klarinet archives will turn up the information that Buffet made the early 20th century Albert system clarinets labelled "C. Fischer New York." That one's easy, because the Carl Fischer catalogues from the period state that Buffet made the clarinets and some of us have old catalogues.
Interesting archaeology!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2011-09-30 12:44)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-10-01 23:15
Other probable stencils I have are:
R. Lefebre, a fine bass clarinet, probably a 50s Baxter Northrup import.
Marcel Deleau, a fine C clarinet, also probably a 50s Baxter Northrup import.
Thibouville-Lamy, from a swap meet.
Henry Gunke, from a swap meet.
Tribert, from that auction site.
Also, I've seen photos of but do not own, two Lemery clarinets, possibly from Clermont about 1800, one left-handed.
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Author: Robertoes
Date: 2011-11-24 10:09
Phil,
Could I get a recommendation to the clarinetpages.wetpaint.com clarinet site?
I went to it and it stated to contact a member to get a recommendation to be permitted to access the site.
Thanks!
R-
Buffet Bb R13
Evette-Schaeffer Bb
Auguste Buffet Bb Enhanced Boehm (circa 1920's)
Selmer Silver Bb Full Boehm (Nov 1930)
C.G. Conn Metal HP Bb Double Wall (1895)
Silva-Bet Silver Enhanced Boehm Bb (1930)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2011-11-24 11:48
It looks an interesting site
It appears to have open access at its new address:
www.clarinetpages.net
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-24 13:48
There are some Selmer Paris clarinets going under the name Sterling Paris - they're not the same as the intermediate level Selmer Sterling clarinets made for Selmer London (which were Malernes), nor Chinese ones from recent times, but actual pro level Selmer Paris clarinets made in the '30s or thereabouts with a diamond logo instead of the laurel wreath logo.
I've seen a high pitch silver plated metal semi-Improved Albert system one which has all the classic Selmer traits and more recently, a wooden one with similar keywork. Just searched and seen a metal Boehm system one listed in a classified ad a well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-11-24 13:55)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-11-24 13:56
Attachment: sterling clarinet 1.jpg (34k)
Attachment: sterling clarinet 2.jpg (34k)
Attached are two pictures of a wooden Selmer (Paris) Sterling albert system clarinet.
I don't know of any other makes of Albert or non-Boehm systems that have three large pad cups on the same side on the lower joint - only more recently German Boehm and Reform Boehms have this layout, but they're Boehm systems.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-11-24 14:00)
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2011-11-25 12:52
Selmer used the 'three in a row' design on their 'improved albert' system horns around the 1920s. These had six rings and some other additions to standard Albert keywork and the usual Selmer markings and serial numbers. Quite sought after today as a "jazz clarinet" - I believe Jimmy Noone played one.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2013-12-14 13:24
Wes- Triebert and Jerome Thibouville Lamy are actual makers- whether or not every instrument with their name was actually made by them...
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