 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: normancult
Date: 2011-08-09 02:39
Hi there,
I am thinking to gold plate my 1193 neck.
Does anybody knows a good person to do this job and how much it would cost?
I am in the west coast by the way.
Thanks a lot guys.
Post Edited (2011-08-09 03:03)
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Author: dansil
Date: 2011-08-09 05:48
Hi normancult
is your intention to change the appearance or the sound of your 1193, and if the latter do you have any evidence or experience that a few microns of gold plating will change the sound of the bass clarinet?
Try Anderson Plating (www.andersonsilverplating.com)
Cheers, Danny
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Author: LCL
Date: 2011-08-09 12:58
Morrie Backun did my Leblanc neck about 3 or 4 years ago. He also installed a wooden bell that has a gold plated transion piece. It is very beautiful and it made a signifcant improvement in the sound of this low C BC. I'm sure a multitude on the board would beg to differ, but I won't debate anyone's opinion. I only know what I think I hear and what others have told me they hear as well!
Good Luck,
LCL
PS It is not cheap!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-08-09 14:26
I have heard excellent things about the folks at
St. Louis Woodwind & Brass Instrument Repair Inc
1773 N. New Florissant Rd.
Florissant, MO. 63033
314-921-0012
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-10 14:06
I had my neck and bell double gold plated
about 5 years ago. I did find a bit more
warmth in the upper register and many
compliments on how it looks. I had my
repairman send it out to a co. that coats
flutes. I did that when gold was only about
$700 an ounce, it may not be worth it now
it has to be stripped, coated with silver first
so the gold will adhere to it and then 2coats
of gold. I suggest at least two. Of course
having only the neck won't be as much as
the bell as well. I love it and I'm a pro.
ESP. eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-08-11 18:16
While I haven't had any plating done, I've seen recommendations for Artisan Plating, http://www.artisanplating.com/.
St. Louis Woodwind & Brass Instrument Repair Inc. no longer has a website. They can be reached at stlwwbr@gmail.com.
The price of gold this morning was $1,752 an ounce. As Ed Palanker says, you'll need a special reason to lay out that kind of money -- for example, if your sweat is so acidic that it eats through anything else, or if, like Ed, you're at the top of the profession and need that small extra increment to make your living. For that kind of money, you should get a Backun or Bay neck custom fitted to your particular bass.
Remember also that in a clarinet barrel (and a bass clarinet neck), the difference between a great one and a ruined one is measured in thousands of an inch. If you have the chrome stripped off and a layer of silver and two layers of gold put inside your bass neck, you'll need some artistic setup work done, in particularly in and around the register vent and on the key mechanism and posts to make it operate smoothly.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2011-08-11 18:18)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-15 20:56
Just a note for Ken, they don't coat the inside bore with the silver and gold plating, it only goes on the outside so it does not effect the bore. It's like when a flute gets gold plated. ESP
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-08-15 21:39
Even so, Ed, if Hamilton plating on the keywork can affect the sound of a Yamaha soprano clarinet as some claim, then gold on the outside of a bass clarinet neck has the potential of making it sound like an...........
...................ALTO CLARINET!!!!
Oh no!
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Author: salsacookies
Date: 2011-08-15 23:52
If you're going for pure cosmetics, how bout the DIY option?
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm
Probably cheaper than a pro plating place and you'll probably have plenty left of for any other small parts you want to make shiny.
My setup
Leblanc Legacy Bb with grenadilla barrel and bell, B45 w/Optimum lig.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-08-16 14:29
Ed -
The plating processes I'm familiar with involve dunking the entire item in a bath and plating the entire surface, which would apply the coating to the inside as well as the outside of a BC neck. Do they perhaps coat the inside of the neck with wax or another resistant or sacrificial substance?
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-16 17:22
Ken, your sort of correct. I just took another close look and there is some gold finish in the inside of the neck. It's not nearly as shinny as the outside, as a matter of fact it's rather dull so I'm not sure what it actually is. I can tell on the bell of course that it was plated inside the bell but again, the further down in the bell the duller the finish so I stand corrected. There is something inside, I just assumed no since I requested it to be coated only on the outside and not to plate the inside of the neck. In any case, I loved it when it came back. :-) Take care, ESP
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Author: Gregory Williams
Date: 2011-08-16 17:52
I second the recommendation for St. Louis WW and Brass. Ask for Bill Myers...the brass guy...or Marvin Krantz the clarinet repairman. They do great work.
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2011-08-16 19:27
Ed, the dull finish you are seeing on the interior IS the gold plating, it just isn't polished. When a gold-plated item first comes out of the solution, it is generally dull and sometimes a bit blackened, and needs to be polished with a cloth to achieve the proper finish. It's nigh impossible to do that kind of polishing work inside a bass clarinet neck
(I recently rose-gold plated my flute headjoint using my home tank plating system, and the interior of the headjoint is much as you describe your neck.)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-08-16 20:19
Gold plating is electro plating which relies on the electrical current to carry the gold molecules from the anode to the piece being plated.
A hollow item such as a crook essentially provides an electrical shield that prevents most of the current reaching the inside (unless an anode was specifically placed inside the neck to increase the current flow there) so only a minute amount of the gold would actually get deposited on the inside and that would most likely be a chemical rather than electrical deposit and so very poorly adhere to the metal.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-17 13:19
Well, I'm glad we got that settled. I do believe that Norman is correct on the electro plating. All I know, this is for Alex, it does make a difference in the tone quality. I admit it is a very small difference but a difference. When I got it back, bell and neck, I wasn't sure what difference in any it made because with every different reed there is a very slight difference as well and there was a 3 week wait until I got it back. But a few years ago one of my students had the same neck model as mine so I played it with her neck and then mine, we both agreed it made even a bigger difference than I originally thought. Of course I am aware that every neck, just like the barrels on a clarinet, will play a little difference so I'm not a 100% sure how much the gold plating did. I'm sure I wouldn't do it at this time with gold 3 times the price as it was when I did it but yes, it does look great. :-) ESP
PS. I love it when someone tells me that my instrument sounds great, I usually ask how the player sounded. LOL
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-08-17 15:47
Was this test done blind? Not saying that there wasn't a difference, but I tend not to trust playtests if the player knows which he's playing.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-08-17 16:11
Alex, with all due respect you're wasting your time with that line of logic. Players' perceptions of improvements in their playing are basically "faith-based", like religious beliefs. If a player has spent significant money on a new gadget or improvement to his/her instrument, then the player very much wants to believe there has been an improvement and WILL convince him/herself that there has been an improvement. I asked questions such as yours during the Great BB Wood Bass Clarinet Bell Debate and realized it was a lost cause. I wish you better luck than I had.
In the end, who cares? Ed has his symphony gig (well earned), he will sound good on whatever he plays. For the rest of us, there are no symphony gigs to be had anyway, so as long as we're pumping money into the retail economy and feeling good about our own playing, then it's all wonderful. So to everyone out there, enjoy your Backun barrels and gold-plated bells and favorite ligatures and Hamilton plating and whatever else makes you feel warm and fuzzy, because self-satisfaction (not scientific plausibility) is what's important, isn't it?
I'm going out to my car now to wrap that magnetic thing around the fuel line, as you know it aligns the gasoline molecules and improves fuel economy by 25%.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-08-17 16:43
If you pinch the fuel line off with a hemostat, David, your car's emissions will drop to 0%. That includes CO2 *and* noise. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-17 21:34
Alex, it's hard to have a blind test when one neck is gold plated and the other is not. Mine sounded better, it was a fact. Just so you know the two reasons I gold plated my neck and bell where as follows.
I wanted to get a Backun wooden bell but he needed me to send him my bell when he got an appropriate piece of wood. Since I only have the one bass clarinet I could not do that during the BSO season so I decided to get it gold plated during the off season. As far as the neck, I changed MP a few years before that because I loved the quality of it. The only thing I wasn't as happy with was the altissimo register so I thought gold plating the neck "might" help. It did, Case closed. As I said, I didn't notice any real difference until I played on a standard neck, there was a difference for me. I don't need a blind test to know if one item sound better or worse than another. ESP
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-08-18 11:07
Even that test would be imperfect. How do you know if whatever differences noted are due to the plating or (more likely in my opinion) to dimensional differences between the two necks prior to the plating being applied?
This is the problem with testing musical instruments. In most situations you simply cannot eliminate the effects of multiple variables and change only one thing at a time, with the evaluations done immediately back-to-back, and with subjectivity removed. If medical trials were done the way musicians 'test' their instruments, we'd all be dead.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-08-18 15:42
hehe, lol, yeah.
Which is why I only somewhat trust trials when the difference is so dramatic that there's no guesswork as to whether or not there was a difference.
Even then, there tends to be a "different is better" danger. A significant improvement on a peevy note may cause you to not notice a much more slight detrimental effect on multiple other notes. Whether a neck, barrel, whatever improves or hinders things on the balance is up to the individual player to decide. For that matter, I guess having something shiny at least has the head-turning car-with-spinning-rims effect.
I rarely use tone as a reliable criterion when trying equipment. Response is a more tangible aspect, though even that can be thrown off by reed and ligature position, etc. Products with significant mechanical or logistical differences have more appeal to me, as "this one has an extra key" or "the register vent is adjustable" are more concrete benefits.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-18 18:00
Alex, it is certainly true that when I compared the neck to my students it could have certainly had nothing to do with the gold plating but to assume that an experienced player and teacher can't determine a difference between two necks or barrels or what ever without doing it in a blind test is a bit insulting. I can't speak for everyone but if there is a difference I can tell. Eyes opened, eyes closed, in one room in another if there is a difference in the tone quality or resistance or feel in any way I can tell. With that said, sometimes the difference is so slight or not at all that I can't tell, in which case I will say, I can't tell a difference. You're assuming that an experienced player can't tell the difference between say, two mouthpiece, or barrels or bells or maybe even clarinets as long as they see what they're playing, I totally disagree with you. Maybe you can't, but I certainly can. ESP
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-08-18 18:42
There are two separate issues here: (1) Ability to eliminate all variables but one and vary just one parameter at a time; (2) Ability to identify and detect (with some accuracy and repeatability) audible differences, if any, resulting from the variable/parameter change. Ed, just because you can hear a difference between two items (and I don't doubt that you can) doesn't mean that the difference was necessarily caused by what you think it was!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-08-18 22:42
Ed,
I accidentally hit the 'Delete' instead of the 'quote' button on your last post. I'm really sorry about that -it was an accident. Fumble fingers on my iPad ... here's what you said:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Alex, it's hard to have a blind test when one neck is gold plated and the
other is not. Mine sounded better, it was a fact. Just so you know the two
reasons I gold plated my neck and bell where as follows.
I wanted to get a Backun wooden bell but he needed me to send him my bell
when he got an appropriate piece of wood. Since I only have the one bass
clarinet I could not do that during the BSO season so I decided to get it
gold plated during the off season. As far as the neck, I changed MP a few
years before that because I loved the quality of it. The only thing I
wasn't as happy with was the altissimo register so I thought gold plating
the neck "might" help. It did, Case closed. As I said, I didn't notice any
real difference until I played on a standard neck, there was a difference
for me. I don't need a blind test to know if one item sound better or
worse than another. ESP
----------------------------------------------------------------
What we're trying to say is that it is literally impossible to do an A-B comparison between your neck before and after being gold plated. Memory is notoriously inaccurate - you can honestly argue and say it's better sounding now and truly believe so - you have no reason to lie - but there's no existing proof other than your say-so. Often people put price & sound hand-in-hand, and mentally make it so - but there is concrete psychological evidence that we can often be fooled by that which glitters. Oenophiles, for instance, have been publicly fooled more than once. Not to say that you are wrong, but there is a statistical chance that you are, and we can't tell either way.
We all realize that you can tell the difference between two necks, but many are suspicious of your claim that you can tell the difference between the ONE neck plated and unplated. And ... It's impossible to prove either way.
Along with this for others who think that we NEED to do a double blind test ... Double blind testing is the "gold standard" but is often literally impossible. Single blind and "unblinded" testing still can have significant statistical accuracy. You just have to devise more devious testing methodologies. A test I'm currently proposing (and waiting for approval) for a psychology experiment is "unblinded" but that matters nought in the testing and statistics I hopefully will be deriving from it.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-08-18 23:17
I'm with Ed Palanker on this one.
It's a professional's business to know what he can and can't do on his instrument. A good pro will know every tendancy of his horn: which solo passages are tricky, which aren't on his particular instrument. He'll know each and every note's tendancies.
With this in mind, if Ed says he wasn't happy with his altissimo before gold plating, you can be pretty sure he had very specific things in mind--passages, etc., that were trickier than he felt they needed to be, or notes that didn't project the way he wanted them to. It's easy to see that the supposedly "impossible" A-B comparison in this situation is nowhere near impossible: it's basic--you get the neck back and see if the passage that bothered you in question works better. You don't need some superhuman recall capacity to know that the annoying spot in the Firebird is now easy. Any professional knows the tough spots, and any professional is glad to find something that fixes them.
I don't know Ed personally, but I've also read posts of his where he dismisses the notion that more expensive is automatically better--he's actually said that sometimes it's cheaper equipment that turns out to work better-- so implying that he might be psychologically blinded by the bling, consciously or subconsciously, doesn't jive with his other posts, at least not to me.
And I completely agree with his earlier statement: I don't need a blind test to tell when one thing sounds good and another doesn't.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-08-18 23:45
MarlboroughMan wrote:
>. It's easy to see that the
> supposedly "impossible" A-B comparison in this situation is
> nowhere near impossible: it's basic--you get the neck back and
> see if the passage that bothered you in question works better.
No, you're very, very wrong, because the mind is a powerful instrument that plays more tricks than you can imagine. It does amazing things, but comes to incorrect conclusions much more often than you might think.
But it doesn't matter in reality, because in this case if someone THINKS it's better, and they play the passage with more ease, it's irrelevant as to the cause. It only matters in our understanding of how the brain works and makes decisions.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-08-19 00:06
I'm not saying they can't tell the difference. What I'm saying is that there are so many variables floating around that it's possible to be distracted by one significant change and overlook others, and it's also possible to trick oneself into some self-fulfilling prophecies about what some equipment will do. Someone may have a problem with a high E, and the mere suggestion that "this barrel aids in the facility of high E" may cause them to do something without realizing that fixes the high E (perhaps not stressing about what a problem note it is), independent of the equipment. Granted, that's a very non-subtle example.
Just not playing an instrument for several weeks while the neck is out is enough for me to distrust any before-after comparisons I would have. I only really attached to Ed's story because it mentioned some uncertainty as to how much of an effect the plating had, which suggests to me that it may have been within a margin of error.
As far as necks go, anything that makes the flimsiest segment of the bass clarinet thicker is a good thing in my book, though I don't know if the plating adds enough mass to be significant in that regard.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-08-19 00:38
The mind is definitely very powerful, and sometimes there is placebo effect in many walks of life over many issues, including equipment changes. But I'll still maintain that an honest, competent pro can tell the difference between one set-up and another on Firebird or the glisandi in the Artie Shaw concerto (or response in the Barber Essay Bass Clarinet solo, for that matter).
There are real differences, and yes, you can remember them rather easily. I would further suggest that most serious players aren't looking for some alchemic majic wand when they change equipment. They have specific goals in mind, specific problems, and know when a change has made it worse or better (oftentimes a switch entered with high hopes results in something worse, not some great mind trick that made it better--just ask players who made expensive changes to their instruments and wound up ruining them--it happens).
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-21 03:00
This has become an interesting conversion at best. I didn't intend to infer that anyone else should get their neck gold plated because I can not tell you that it will make a positive difference for you or not. I had it done because I wanted to see if it would make a positive difference and at the time, I could afford it. As I indicated, I would not do it now with gold three times the price it was when I had it done. I also had my bell plated at the same time but can't really say if it made a difference or not. I believe doing the neck made a small difference. When I played my students neck the difference was huge but I realize that it could have just been the difference between one neck and another, just like two different barrels. As I said, two may sound so close alike that the difference can not be noticed yet they could be world apart. Please don't read anything more into my statements then that. I feel plating the neck made a little difference for me on the neck of my bass clarinet. It probably makes no difference to the listener at all but I think it makes a slight difference to me. I think we should just leave it at that.
The main point I've been trying to make is that it is possible to tell the difference between different pieces of equipment without a "blind" test. The problem with gold plating is you can't really compare it to before it was plated, you can only depend on your past experience. I think my altissimo register sounds, or at least feels like it sounds, warmer then before I had it plated, I'm a happy camper. ESP
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