 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-13 01:33
I'm commenting as an occasional user of this board. I'm hardly even a lurker, I spend maybe one week every couple of months reading through the board, posting, and commenting.
I've noticed that the board becomes unnecessarily contentious entirely too often, typically over something really, REALLY stupid. Obviously there will be disagreements, but at least try to make them constructive rather than using them as an opportunity to fling passive aggressive commentary. It's distracting, it doesn't help anyone who's trying to learn something, and it does a great job of showing everyone else on the board how cranky you are.
It's extremely irritating to have to read through a thread and wade through that kind of trash. No one likes hearing children arguing over something absurd; surely no one like watching adults doing the same. There's something about the BBoard that seems to make clarinetists even bitchier than usual - so, for all you cranky bastards out there: leave that trash elsewhere. Seriously, just stop.
Protip: no one cares who started it.
'nuff said.
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-06-13 01:46
I can see this becoming a LONG thread..............
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-13 01:48
I'm sure it will be, but what better way to address the problem than by bringing it up directly?
Edit:
By the way, I was in Melbourne last August for the Orchestra Victoria audition, and it was mainly an excuse to hang out in Melbourne for a week. I must say, I really enjoyed the hell out of that town... hope to make it back sometime. Cheers!
Post Edited (2011-06-13 01:53)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2011-06-13 02:07
The disagreements I see on here seem relatively mild to me. We used to have real knock down drag outs on the Klarinet mailing list. Not that I ever participated!!!!!!!!
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Now on Facebook
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2011-06-13 02:59
sometimes i larn stuff from the actual arguments themself. but nothing that bad has happened here. not like myspace or facebook!!!!
Fernando
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Author: Kontra
Date: 2011-06-13 03:07
I've only seen one argument here, and it was nothing compared to some of the arguments on SOTW...
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-13 03:37
Honestly the few contentious threads we get on here are pretty tame compared to most of the internet forums I frequent. I think we should all be thankful that we don't seem to have many trolls showing up here with the sole purpose of starting arguments as this is a huge problem on many forums.
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-06-13 03:44
Paul Miller writes: ''.....what better way to address the problem than by bringing it up directly?''
Sure I agree, but what problems, specifically, did you want to address? Some examples would help.
For my part, I feel that trivia plays a big part with the correspondence posted here. I'm talking about the monotonous discussions about equipment which seem to circulate endlessly. Opinions pertaining to ligatures seem to be a big offender, but there are numerous others. If only the would-be poster consulted SEARCH beforehand, it would eliminate the need for the majority of these types of posts.
What IS required are more original postings relating to (say) performances recently seen, or participated in, or recordings recently acquired, or NEW(I stress) equipment and improvements to instruments. The history of instruments and compositions is always useful and instructional. Links to videos are quite informative and entertaining.
I'm not of the view that posts need to be absolutely and scrupulously researched, but by the same token, pure unprovable and subjective opinions need to be tempered with some reserve.
I compare this BB with that of a neighbour speaking over the back fence to another. You don't need to be a lawnmower mechanic to at least be able to offer some assistance to the neighbour if his won't start.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-06-13 03:49
I do like Paul Millers' use of "nuff said". There was no chance of it ending there! I personally would like to see more debate and interaction on the BB. In the future I will make more of an effort to be more amiable and perhaps even a little more thoughtful in my posts.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 12:30
>>There's something about the BBoard that seems to make clarinetists even bitchier than usual - so, for all you cranky bastards out there: leave that trash elsewhere. Seriously, just stop.
>>
I too prefer civility and mutual respect to feuding, but um, calling your fellow clarinet players bitchy bastards somehow doesn't strike me as the most promising way to promote peace and harmony.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-06-13 12:55
Why fix something that ain't broke?
I basically agree w. Walter Grabner"s reply.
Malcontents come and go, and some amazingly (or not so amazingly) disappear altogether.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: samohan245
Date: 2011-06-13 13:57
Don't you think its hypocritical of you to even be posting this thread? Stop and think what your causing. There is no self- control in posting this and I personally think THIS post is unnecessary.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 14:13
hmm, this evolves in a good example on how to start a brawl.
I, for my part, just say "okay, duly noted."
Then I hang my head a bit and retire to the practice room.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-13 15:06
Lelia, it's probably just a side effect from my time in the Marines, whose unofficial motto is, "Peace and Harmony through overwhelming force."
Actually my use of "cranky bastards" and "bitchier than usual" are calculated - and reserved for those people who are in fact cranky, bitchy bastards. They know who they are, and frankly they deserve to be called out, but since I don't want to make this into a post about individuals, I went in a more general direction with it.
Ned, I don't really want to make this about individuals. But I'll give the example as to what triggered my post. I was throughly enjoying and learning from a particular thread and then out of nowhere these two otherwise intelligent posters derailed the entire thing by getting into the single dumbest, off topic argument I have ever heard. What was even worse was that they were trying to keep the topical argument going at the same time, so we all had to dig through these posts that are a.) obviously no longer emotionally objective, b.) littered with passive-aggressive commentary, and c.) were so far off the track from the OP that the entire latter half of the thread was essentially made useless - it became about those two people and their dramatic crap rather than about the OP's question/comment.
Now, in a tiered comment system, that would be fine, because you could just close that line of the conversation - but here? It wrecks the thread. Wading through all that was pretty disappointing, because I thought both parties were making some sense up until the point where the whole damned thread suddenly imploded.
...and this isn't a unique phenomenon on the BBoard. It happens frequently, and not just because someone throws out a bitchy comment, but because the other party can't just let it go. Yes, the Clarinet BBoard is generally pretty good (Even if there are TONS of reposts - we desperately need a FAQ by the way...), which is why it's even more disappointing than usual when a good thread is collapsed by a couple of cranky people.
Samohan245: No, not hypocritical at all; there is nothing passive aggressive about what I am saying here.
Let me be perfectly clear: I am inviting the members of the BBoard to check themselves, in order to make sure that we are all posting commentary that is constructive to the conversation at hand, and that we leave personal baggage or bad moods at the door.
Tictactux: Exactly.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-06-13 15:22
Bitch, bitch, bitch, it's those damn reeds that make us crazy. ;-) ESP
eddiesclarinet.com
PS. I agree and I don't agree. Some people do act like the writer stated but I find it to be a very small minority. I just ignore the person that does it the most.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-06-13 15:41
"I am inviting the members of the BBoard to check themselves"
Hmmm.....last time I checked myself, I was perfect--although others may disagree.............
Seriously, I have generally found all clarinetist's to be competative (we all want to be the best) but none the less, congenial and friendly. We disagree on many things, but it's the discussion and resulting self evaluations that make us "better"--or at the very least, more informed. However, let's keep our passion under control and keep our valuable discussions civil.
brtw--well said, EP.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-06-13 15:46
Keep the dialogue going! You have to be tenacious. If you think the discussion is worthwhile then wade through all the conflict and keep the discussion on track. If it gets down to a two person discussion then perhaps email is the alternative to being annoyed by irrelevant posts.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-13 15:58
Welcome to the internets. Serious business.
This board is quite civil (too much for my tastes sometimes, especially given its distaste for scatological themes, even when entirely on topic).
On a scale of 1-10 for board nastiness/chaos, I'd give this board a 2. To kick it up to a 3, I might post the following image, which I find completely appropriate to this thread, as a standalone message without discussing it first:
http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/131450-1/THIS_thread.jpg?
To make it a 4, I'd post it inline rather than as a link. I can demonstrate 5-10 if you like.
It's a balancing act. If the board isn't civil, you lose a lot of new posters. If you try to enforce too much nicety, you lose a lot of the more rambunctious and contentious (and often more knowledgeable) types who add a lot to the discussion.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-13 16:14
Mark and GBK are pretty good. From what I see, they allow people's opinions and a moderate amount of jabbing, but they step in when it's off-topic or too personal. I've gotten frustrated with, really, just a few people, and at this point I just ignore them and don't read their posts.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-06-13 16:15
Paul Miller wrote:
> we desperately need a FAQ by the
> way
No we don't - I had a whole website as a FAQ, and guess what - the exact same questions that were covered by the website got covered again here.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-06-13 16:22
Paul Miller wrote:
> Let me be perfectly clear: I am inviting the members of the
> BBoard to check themselves, in order to make sure that we are
> all posting commentary that is constructive to the conversation
> at hand, and that we leave personal baggage or bad moods at the
> door.
Of course, your post shows a cranky mood, neh?
Glenn & I wade through every post ... and we make some decisions here & there about what's proper and what isn't. We can ask all we want, but it comes down to the level of moderation since what YOU think might be bitchy or cranky might be something that OTHER people don't believe is - sometimes it's a useful technique to get people out of their complacency and force them to think for a change. Glenn & I arbitrate that between us. And moderate very lightly (unless of course a poster that gets edited & doesn't feel that way, and then we get accused of all sorts of wrongdoing and bias and heavy-handedness and whatnot by the poster and whoever happens to be on the poster's "side" at that moment).
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Author: Kontra
Date: 2011-06-13 16:24
Quote:
"I can demonstrate 5-10 if you like."
If you want something ranging from 5-10, look up the thread on SOTW concerning the evolution of saxophones. Most idiotic thread I've ever read and I still want those precious minutes back. Just people bickering over stupid crap and throwing in their belief system (trying to do it discreetly too, they put it in where it didn't even relate to the argument!) where it wasn't even needed or wanted.
(I'm surprised it wasn't deleted.) So I consider this board to be mild and lucky.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-13 16:55
Mark: No, I don't think so. I wrote that in order to clarify my position, in response to a suggestion of hypocrisy on my part. It's not bitchy or cranky, it's a serious suggestion as to what we as members of the BBoard can do ourselves to improve the legibility of the threads. Really, the complaint has nothing to do with moderation.
You and Glenn do an outstanding job of staying out of the way of the conversation and letting things go until they do become inappropriate or against the rules. I agree with that approach. This has more to do with threads getting derailed, and I think that has more to do with speaking directly with the people who post on the board rather than the mods getting involved. Basically I'm saying that as a community we could do a much better job of keeping ourselves on topic, and that when we do get off topic it's usually because someone's being cranky and bitchy.
On the other hand, tiered comment systems don't seem to have this problem of thread hijacking, since you can just hide the parts of the conversation that are going off in the other direction - and the nitpicky comments don't get the same weight as the main body of the thread since they're typically three or four layers down. I am illiterate as a programmer, I know nothing about web design... would tiered commenting even be a possibility for the Clarinet BBoard? I think it would be worth considering.
As for the FAQ, I think it'd be worth another try. Maybe put it back as a sticky - and a larger font and bold italics, "MANDATORY - READ THIS FIRST BEFORE POSTING" - at the top of the BBoard? I don't see how it could hurt, and maybe increased visibility would encourage the new people to click on it. But, again, I'm not around here all *that* often, I'm just commenting on a problem I've noticed and want to bring it up.
Also, Mark, I don't think I've ever spoken to you before, so I'd like to say thanks for putting all this together. It is a remarkable resource for all of us.
...EEBaum, I don't always seek out chaos, but when I do, it's on /b/
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-06-13 17:21
It took me 5 finger swipes of scrolling on my android touch screen phone to get through that last comment. *grin*
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-13 17:36
Claire.... I think I rather like you. What are you doing for dinner tonight? I know this great Thai place off of Judah and 24th Ave... 'course it'd be a bit of a commute but I think you'll find it's worth the trip out here.
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2011-06-13 17:38
this is getting weird. maybe their really isn't a point in this thread
Fernando
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-06-13 17:46
For the moderators pertaining to this post:
Paul Miller mentioned above about the feasibility of a tiered comment system. I've seen it done on other boards that I've posted on and here's my vote for it if it's doable. Is that something that can be explored? I've seen other message boards filled with so much bantering and people flaming each other that a lot of people that had good things to contribute disappeared. I don't want to see that happen here.
I know for me, I know I've broken rules before on posting stuff that shouldn't be (mostly references to stuff from everyone's unfavorite auction site). I have trouble knowing what to post and not to post sometimes because I see posts here mentioning stuff (maybe because I get too specific?). Maybe someone just needs to explain it thoroughly to me. Mods, feel free to drop me an e-mail.
I also see a lot of humor here that's fun and harmless. Please keep that going, guys. I do enjoy some entertainment in the learning process.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2011-06-13 17:49
i couldnt agree with you more gsurosey! its the humor that makes it a bit "funner" to go on this particular forum.
Fernando
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-06-13 17:52
Rachel said:
"I also see a lot of humor here that's fun and harmless. Please keep that going, guys. I do enjoy some entertainment in the learning process."
Stop by the "Why you get stopped at the airport with cork grease" thread.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-06-13 18:12
Paul,
I have to admit when I first saw your topic, I thought you were going to properly chastise the Board for the (IMNSHO) disappointing response so far to Mark's annual fund drive.
When I actually read your post, my first reaction was disappointment that it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. My next was to remember (what I consider) a fundamental principle of effective posting: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It frustrates you and annoys the pig."
Oink, oink,
jnk
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 18:21
Jack,
similar thoughts crossed my mind. Well, not necessarily the pig (I like it), but certainly the fund drive thing.
--
Ben
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 19:44
Before I join this fascinating thread, I need to ask, of its equally fascinating originator:
When you wrote:
>> these two otherwise intelligent posters derailed the entire thing by getting into the single dumbest, off topic argument I have ever heard. What was even worse was that they were trying to keep the topical argument going at the same time, so we all had to dig through these posts that are a.) obviously no longer emotionally objective, b.) littered with passive-aggressive commentary, and c.) were so far off the track from the OP that the entire latter half of the thread was essentially made useless - it became about those two people and their dramatic crap rather than about the OP's question/comment.>>
...were you speaking in part of my responses to Ken Shaw in the 'Bartok Contrasts' thread?
Tony
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-06-13 19:56
gsurosey wrote:
> For the moderators pertaining to this post:
>
> I have trouble knowing what to post
> and not to post sometimes because I see posts here mentioning
> stuff (maybe because I get too specific?). Maybe someone just
> needs to explain it thoroughly to me.
"Stuff" you own or might be looking to buy is just fine as a general question. However, as the Help/Rules link says in regard to buying or selling:
Quote:
No mentioning of sales or offers to buy are allowed on the BBoards. Use the Classifieds. You are of course free to email privately.
...
No using the BBoard to determine a selling price for something you're about to part with. Check Ebay or the Classifieds for similar equipment.
No auction (eBay or otherwise) links, references, comments, or questions about currently selling items. NO EXCEPTIONS! There are good reasons for this, with a primary reason being egregious shilling, sometimes (oftentimes) obscured by alternate screen names and email addresses. Educational references after a sale has concluded are fine.
I am looking at updating this software to the newest version. This version is ancient but it is very reliable and I've made significant modifications over the years - upgrading will be non-trivial ...
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-13 20:41
Salzo: thanks.
Tony: well, no, not particularly, though that thread was a train wreck.
Mark: I think that Reddit's software is free and open source. It's a good system, but /r/clarinet just doesn't have the same quality and quantity of users as the BBoard.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 21:28
Paul Miller wrote:
>>Tony: well, no, not particularly, though that thread was a train wreck.>>
Well, YOU say so without supporting argument. But that's just your opinion. Who you? This BBoard is defective for reasons beyond your ken, I suggest.
Anyway, since you say it wasn't about that thread: what WERE you talking about?
Tony
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-13 22:00
Tony, as I mentioned above, I don't want to make this about specific individuals, so I'd prefer to leave the incident that prompted all this out of the discussion. I'll happily admit that I'm not around here enough to have a comprehensive view of all the problems facing the BBoard, though I don't believe that invalidates my concern in this matter.
As for the Bartok thread, yes, in my opinion it was a train wreck.
As for myself, I'm just another guy posting on the internet. No pretensions here, I'm just trying to contribute to the community. If I have completely overstated my position then I apologize for doing so.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-06-13 22:34
I actually enjoy most of the back-and-forth on theis board, with the exception of certain trivial (at least to me) issues that resurface ad infinitum and ad nauseum. Still, the people posing the oft-answered questions are usually newbies, so most of us cut a little slack, as well as offer judicious referrals to the SEARCH function.
I moderated a photography BB system for a major market American magazine with a fair overseas circulation, and for the most part, I think Mark and GBK do a superb job, striking a balance between moderating and censorship. I know that isn't the proper term, as censorship often falls under the definition of specific governmental action to suppress free speech, but it is a close enough term for the sake of this argument.
In the grander scheme of things, excepting certain obnoxious members who shall remain nameless, Mark and Glenn provide a first-rate service, and well worth the investment *some* of us make to keep it running.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2011-06-13 22:34)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-13 22:52
Paul M,
As one who has followed the BBoard for many years w/o posting until recently, I can claim being guilty of some of the things of which you speak. There have been some threads where I may have over-reacted to a comment, sometimes justified sometimes not; but I'm human and I make mistakes- I can admit that.
I don't know what specific thread serves as the genesis here. (If you are referring to the current "tension while breathing thread" then I may be guilty, but I am attempting to remedy that.)
However, sometimes when a thread goes away from the original topic, a more important issue may come to light which bears importance. If there are verbal assaults or the like so be it, but it still may illustrate an important point. One can follow or ignore. As I don't know what the specific instance is I cannot comment on it.
The Bartok thread went off topic, which was probably my fault. However, the original issue was addressed before it changed course. Ultimately, a far more important issue came to light. It may have been a train-wreck but it at least demonstrated a point, regardless of the tone.
Ultimately, the moderators decide where the limits lie and we should let them decide. That's why you see THIS THREAD IS CLOSED when necessary.
With Respect to all (no hidden meanings)- Jason
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-06-14 01:49
Tony, Tony, Tony, My Little Pony -- more pearls drop from his lips, or perhaps the other end.
Ken Shaw
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2011-06-14 02:07
Isn't it that THIS kind of threads we should try to avoid?
Mike.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2011-06-14 02:59
Gee, I didn't think that other thread (on Bartok) was a "train wreck." I think it highlighted how important it is not to accept what you hear uncritically, even when from an ostensibly knowledgeable source.
That's especially true when, as in that thread, what was being reported is hearsay (or, as in that case, double-hearsay--that is, hearsay about hearsay).
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-14 04:34
Michael N,
as an aside- I'm glad I'm not the only one who viewed it that way. Perhaps a "train wreck" which was ultimately repaired with good reason? (abiding the fact I may have pushed it off the tracks to start with)
I will now stop posting so hopefully this thread will cycle its' way off the BBoard into oblivion
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-14 16:35
I post here only rarely, and usually related to Wurlitzer clarinets, but wanted to say that I fully endorse and often appreciate on an almost aesthetic level the Ken Shaw/Tony Pay feud.
I think it brings excitement to the board. There are some threads that wouldn't be half as entertaining without their sparring.
Louis/Schmeling
Patterson/Johannsen
Ali/Frazier
Tyson/Holyfield
Hulk Hogan/Rowdy Roddy Piper
Pay/Shaw
Don't mess with a good product, BBoard!
"Are you ready to RUM--BAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLL?"
(The greatest rhetorical question in all of sports).
With a wink to all.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-06-14 17:30
Thanks for the clarification Mark!
I think after I post this, I will print the rules so I can look at them whenever I need to quickly find them (I don't remember things well in the short-term thanks to the lovely many rounds of ECT that I was subjected to in 2007; that stuff fries your short-term memory).
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2011-06-15 03:11
I don't know, I kind of like a cantankerous BB.
It's quite differnet from a personal conversation...if it's annoying, just click it away.
The most useful threads are those where every one is a bit up in arms.
This months Clainet mag is great. I'm old enough to remember the first issue; very small but with a master lesson by S. Bellison on the Mozart concerto.
Clarinet Redux
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