 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2011-06-04 11:57
Dear All,
I understand that the autograph for Mozart's 13 Winds Serenade is housed at the Library of Congress in Washington. Does anyone know if the score is available to view on line?
Thanks
Peter Cigleris
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2011-06-04 12:34
post your query to the KLARINET list, where Dan Leeson will know the particulars.
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-04 12:54
Nice one!
I've never been sure which of the published versions or editions is to be trusted in the Romanze movement - in the Hellyer edition the D.C. al Coda is a sudden jump cut missing out the bar before the Allegro section to go to Coda and the other version (not sure which edition) goes right up to the double bar (on the nose of the Allegro section) then goes to Coda.
In the original there's a bracket above and below the final bar of the A section (immediately before the Allegro section) which looks like it's been pencilled in.
It's page 54 of the original where you'd expect to see the Coda sign in modern editions:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.200152596/enlarge.html?page=54§ion=&size=1024
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-06-04 13:06)
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Author: fontan29
Date: 2011-06-04 14:15
Check out the Detroit Chamber Winds recording of the piece. It's my favorite!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-04 14:25
I've got the EMI recording of the LPO winds from 1985 which is the Hellyer edition.
Just dug out the CD and looking through the list of players, there's a Peter Maunder on 2nd clarinet - is he a relation of Richard Maunder who re-edited the Requiem and rubbished Sussmayer's work?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-06-04 18:54
>>If you contact Dan Leeson, be sure to spell it Partitta.
>>
Yup -- The Library of Congress does indeed have the score and Dan does have a bug up about that spelling, even though it's a vintage editor's error and not Mozart's spelling as far as anyone knows. I heard Dan give a highly entertaining if somewhat bizarre lecture about the Partita at the Library of Congress several years ago, as the preface to a concert where the winds of the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment played it. Excellent concert.
Dan may not have realized it, but he just about got himself jumped by security when he made a joke under peculiarly inappropriate circumstances. The Library of Congress is across the street from the U.S. Capitol. The guards all over Capitol Hill have been hyper-vigilant, understandably, since 9/11. In the years since then, they've evacuated he Library for security scares so many times while I've been using the Main Reading Room that I've curtailed my research and I'll no longer go there except in weather where I'd be safe outdoors without a coat. I mean, the fact that a scholarly lecture about Mozart had two armed, uniformed security guards and at least two plainclothes (carrying concealed -- I spotted the behavior, the clothes and the telltale bulges -- you notice the bulges when you live around here....) tells you something.
Well, anyway, at Dan's lecture about Mozart and the Partita, I was sitting with a good view of the guards when he gave a brief side-rant about killing Library personnel if they'd done -- what, exactly? I've forgotten the details, but I think he said he thought they might bring him the wrong document, and if they'd done that, etc. etc. -- and he said it, as he said quite a lot of that lecture, in a loud, hectoring and somewhat crazed tone of voice. But luckily the guards did realize he was staging a theatrical number. Otherwise that concert might have gotten delayed or cancelled and the SRO crowd tossed out in the December cold -- with somewhat more serious consequences to Dan! But the guards did realize he was kidding. At least they were sufficiently inclined to think he was kidding to give each other quizzical looks (and the plainclothes, sitting about halfway forward on an aisle, looked back at the uniforms at the door for direction, too), then poise their hands on their guns, lean forward attentively and get ready to go, without actually drawing. The moment passed. They relaxed.
The Library people did bring Dan the Partita or Partitta or Partittttttttaaaa or whatever. He displayed it in a glass case in a room next to the lobby of the concert hall where we could file past and get a good look. Most satisfactory.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-06-04 19:01
Lelia Loban wrote:
> even though it's a
> vintage editor's error and not Mozart's spelling as far as
> anyone knows.
Spelling was incredibly mutable until not all that long ago.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-04 19:06
And it appears we're returning to those mutable times again! What goes around, comes around I suppose.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2011-06-05 21:09
Yes, I vote with Mark. This spelling stuff is a new phenomenon and even Shakespeare spelled his name in different ways.
Words should only be about communicating emotions and thoughts. They are a tool to express.
And now that we are all texting, like Chris P has stated, what goes around comes around.
DRG
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2011-06-05 23:49
Thank you for the link to the score, for whatever reason that alluded me when looked on the Congress website. Fontan29, what is the GIA? I would like to purchase a facsimile if possible.
I'm also interested in your thoughts regarding the use of the contra bassoon in place of the double bass (which Mozart actually wrote for).
Peter Cigleris
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Author: fontan29
Date: 2011-06-06 00:05
GIA is a publisher, mostly of music education type things. They publish the "Teaching Music Through Performance" series of books, among others. They also publish the facsimile of the Gran Partita. I have a copy and it's incredible.
http://www.giamusic.com/search_details.cfm?title_id=9289
I'd try to stick with the double bass, as that's what Mozart intended. If the choice is to play the piece with the contrabassoon, or not play the piece, then by all means use the contrabassoon!
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Author: davyd
Date: 2011-06-06 00:15
What's the consensus on using clarinets instead of basset horns? Pragmatically sensible? A necessary evil? Totally invalidating?
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2011-06-06 03:17
Peter - The bound colour facsimile of the LOC Gran Partita manuscript is also available here:
http://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/moz_gran.html
I am thinking of picking it up myself next week since I will be in New York (where OMI is based).
I did the Gran Partita once with double bass *and* contrabassoon. I know that is not kosher but in a sizeable hall, the sound those two instruments make together on the Gran Partita bass line is spine-tingling.
Simon
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Author: davyd
Date: 2011-06-06 03:21
Buster,
I should have been more specific. Here goes: the only opportunity I've had to perform this masterpiece was as part of a "community" (read: "amateur") ensemble. We didn't own basset horns, didn't have the connections to borrow them, didn't have the money to rent them, and didn't have the time or inclination to become comfortable with them even if we had obtained them somehow.
We used transposed clarinet parts that came with the purchased set (I don't recall which edition) so we did not have to fabricate or steal parts.
In short: we did what we could with what we had. Were we wrong even to attempt it? I can't imagine that my experience is in any way unique.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2011-06-06 09:25
Jason,
I feel your posts are well written and justified. I don't think you offend anyone. Please don't put yourself down.
I'm due to direct this, and have done a fair few times in the past. The concert organiser is asking for contra but I've never done it with and would prefer not to. My feeling is that we as performers should respect the composers wishes, unless circumstances dictate otherwise. If that is the case then, like you say, the individual needs to wrestle with the decision.
Simon,
Thanks for the link but I took the plunge and ordered the one from GIA. Performing with both bass and contra, with the two bassoons is surely bass overload ala Dvorak?
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-06 11:48
Using contra does bring unity to the group as it'll be all wind instruments. I don't think it's being disrespectful but resourceful as some double basses only go to low E when the part goes down to low C and contras will already have this range (low C using the short opera bell, but mostly built to low Bb and some equipped with both low C and low A bells).
The only real disadvantage of using the contra is in the pizzicato passages where a double bass gives a full, rounded boom - that can be achieved to some degree on contra but isn't the same effect.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2011-06-06 13:14
Peter - "Performing with both bass and contra, with the two bassoons is surely bass overload ala Dvorak?"
In a hall suited to the Gran Partita, it might be overload when played on modern instruments. In a period ensemble I am not sure the two bass instruments would necessarily be overload. (This is aside from discussion of the morality of playing it with an instrument (contrabassoon) not called-for in the score.)
In the small arena in which we were playing the Gran Partita it was definitely not overload . On an arena stage the sound does not project out to the audience but seems to dissipate upwards. The slight buzz of the contrabassoon's reed, in combination with the bass's velvety bloom, gave the bass line a perfect presence in a not-so-perfect acoustic.
Simon
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2011-06-06 17:30
I also recently played the piece with contra and double bass. Hearing the recording, it was most noticeably a more bass-heavy sound than usual, but I really enjoyed the impact of this (the phrase "shock & awe" came to mind...). There was no hint of balance problems as a result, and all the treble lines still stood out well over this more vivid underpinning.
Many thanks for the link to the manuscript of this. It's wonderful to see the piece in Mozart's own hand - and interesting to see how clear it is. Makes it very hard to understand how older editions could have got things wrong such as the short grace note on bar 4 of p.8, which you would once have heard done as a full quaver.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-06 19:08
I think any modern basset horn that's pitched in F and descends to low C should do fine.
My asbestos suit is still hanging up in my wardrobe and will remain there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2011-06-06 19:13
Well Jason,
We all no the basset is essentially a clarinet in F so a small bore naturally ;-)
Simon, I understand, though the piece wasn't conceived for such a large auditorium.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2011-06-07 02:44
It would be a disservice to the Master to perform the Gran Partita (Partitta) in anything other version than the use of basset horns.
Using both a sting bass and a contrabassoon would be wonderful in my opinion and acceptable even to the purists.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2011-06-07 04:31
Concerning the question of bass vs. contra, personally I have always felt that using double bass gives the sections where the bass is pizzicaco like the trio of minuet I rather a nice "lift".
Vanessa.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-06-07 07:11
I don't really understand what the discussion is about. Mozart wrote the piece for basset horns and double bass. Of course you can use saxophones and tubas, if you don't have the instruments at your disposal. But then you're playing an arrangement.
I recently performed the Gran Partita on period instruments for the first time, and loved it. Some things sound so different you have to admit that, to some extent, playing the piece on modern instruments is a kind of "arrangement". There's nothing wrong with playing arrangements. Great music by Bach still sounds good played by a Ukelele quartet. It's more a question of what you are setting out to do.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-07 10:31
Liquorice wrote:
>> I don't really understand what the discussion is about. >>
...and then went on to say clearly what the situation is.
Why the discussion arises is that some people want to JUSTIFY, in the abstract, doing something different from what's written. And you can't do that in the abstract -- you can only do it in performance, by demonstrating that it 'works' in your arrangement. Furthermore, even if it then 'works' for some people, others won't agree, and will criticise your decision to change what's written. Then, you just have to grin and bear it.
If you do what's written, then you're immune from that sort of criticism; though of course, not necessarily from other sorts of criticism.
In short, the 'burden of proof' lies on the arranger.
By the way, none of this applies to performances that are not aimed at an audience. I might wince at your choices, but it's not coming anywhere near me.
However, I CAN criticise your arguments that you are somehow JUSTIFIED in your arrangement: "Mozart would have preferred it if he had had a decent contrabassoonist"....etc. etc. Those arguments are just moonshine.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-06-07 11:26
Chris wrote:
>> So (still awaiting any answer here) what's the general rule with the D.C. al Coda in the Romanze section? Play the D.C. right up to the Allegro and cut to Coda or cut to coda a bar earlier as is done in the Hellyer edition? >>
OK, the answer is that there's no general rule. You can look at the MS photocopy as well as anyone. It's between you and Mozart -- or, rather, between you and Mozart's MS. There are arguments both ways.
It's difficult to make the shortened version 'work' in performance, but it can be magical when it comes off. On the whole, I personally prefer this solution, but many of my colleagues aren't convinced.
Once in rehearsal, by accident, we created a version that Mozart certainly didn't intend, but that had its own charm, I thought. Through a misunderstanding, the people who DON'T play in the coda superimposed their two chords on the people who DO, giving a sort of crossfade effect. But I wouldn't presume to do it in a concert:-)
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-07 20:40
When I was at college we didn't have all the resources to do Gran Partita in 1991 so had to make do with the players we had (and still had to get three outside players in on clarinet, bassoon and horn) - so it was done with the following:
Oboe 1 - oboe
Oboe 2 - 2 flutes
Clarinet 1 - clarinet
Clarinet 2 - clarinet
Basset horn 1 - clarinet
Basset horn 2 - clarinet
Bassoon 1 - bassoon
Bassoon 2 - bassoon
Horn 1 - alto sax
Horn 2 - alto sax
Horn 3 - horn
Horn 4 - trombone
Contrabass - double bass
Similarly with the Strauss serenade using another flute standing in for 2nd oboe.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2011-06-09 03:06
I took no offense from anyone's post.  It's hard to display and capture nuance in a text-only medium. No worries from here!
I concede that using clarinets instead of basset horns might well be considered "arranging". I'm supposing that so too would the use of valved French horns, unknown in Mozart's time. Tuning to A440 rather than A415 -- a good point as well. In my one performance, we used a contrabass rather than a contrabassoon, at least partly because we knew only one contrabassoon player, and he wasn't available.
But it's all good, or it should be. If we've done the best we can with what we have, what more can flawed humans ultimately do?
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-06-09 13:10
>> If we've done the best we can with what we have, what more can flawed humans ultimately do?
>>
One thing we can do is turn into a pack of obsessional instrument-scroungers who'll buy any filthy old roached-out horn as long as it's vintage or antique. Oh, wait -- we've already done that! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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The Clarinet Pages
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