 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-05-27 14:34
Attachment: amati_full_boehm.JPG (446k)
I personally prefer a clarinet with the usual 17 keys and 6 rings, with none of the extra keys, but I just saw this one and thought it looked interesting so took a photo. It's an (old) Amati, very decent but not especially good really.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-27 15:22
Amati have based their keywork design largely on Selmers as this one shows - check it against a Series 9 full Boehm and you'll see the likeness.
But that's where the likeness finishes. They're one of the few companies still offering full Boehms http://www.amati.cz/produkty/bb-clarinets/acl-615 (the logos are a bit OTT!) when the likes of Leblanc and Selmer have ceased. I think Buffet will still make full Boehms to order.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-05-27 15:27)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-05-27 19:27
I have a 1920s-vintage Kohlert full-Boehm, and fairly recently had the modern Amati version in my 'shop' so I compared them. They appeared to be identical, which makes sense as Amati absorbed what was left of the Kohlert factory in 1948-49 when most of the Kohlert folks fled to Germany, so Amati probably just kept using the same tooling for their full-Boehms.
FYI my old Kohlert FB plays very well, it's in a three-way tie for my "#1 soprano clarinet" position (woohoo).
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-05-27 20:03
It's not old. At least not compared to mine (which doesn't have the oversize AK logo). But the rest looks identical.
--
Ben
Post Edited (2011-05-27 20:03)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2011-05-27 20:46
Just for interest
Clarnibass' Amati is on the left against my pair of Selmer CT
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-28 12:43
I'd only be repeating what Kilo said.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2011-05-31 19:10
mine looks like clarnibass's but much newer I guess, I really do enjoy playing it had to add the TK thumbrest to it due to the extra weight tho.
Post Edited (2011-05-31 21:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-31 19:17
Just noticed on the Amati it hasn't got the double-headed pillar mounted on a baseplate for the LH rings (just above the middle tenon ring) as Selmers and others do - they've fitted a standard threaded pillar further up the joint instead, away from the tenon shoulder as much as is possible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-03-28 08:11
Full boehm, or at least amati full boehm, is no way to go. I warn you, stear clear. They are intended for eastern music only. When assembling the amati 615/675 it feels good and sturdy, like a cast iron bridge, in mechanic and fitting of the joints but this does not matter as there are aspects making it useless such as weak springs to some levers, weird sound and bore dimensions and a complex key mechanism impeding fast passages and requiring minute adjustment.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-28 09:47
I use full Boehms for all my clarinet playing in every scenario from wind 5tet through to orchestral and own several different makes and models - Selmer CT and Series 9, Leblanc LL, Buffet plus some Selmers with 19/7 (to low E only).
My current full Boehms of choice are my CT Bb and Series 9 A - I find them both very dependable and totally reliable instruments and wouldn't change them for anything else.
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/07.jpg
Scroll to the end of this thread for an attached photo of my CT full Boehm: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=362024&t=356521
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-03-28 09:52)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-03-28 10:32
> They are intended for eastern music only.
Got some evidence to support that claim?
--
Ben
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-28 13:21
The_Clarinetist wrote:
> They are intended for eastern music only.
That's a load of crap. The fact that you were foolish enough to purchase an inexpensive full boehm clarinet without a play test (as you mentioned in the other thread) and were subsequently disappointed with it does not justify your condemnation of all full boehm clarinets. Many people use enhanced or full boehm instruments for all types of music and sound great playing them.
Post Edited (2012-03-28 13:22)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-03-28 13:39
Perhaps The Clarinetist simply wanted to throw a stink bomb ![[mad]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie9.gif) onto the BB to get us all riled up? Clearly he/she knows not of what he/she writes.
I'm the proud owner and frequent user of two full-Boehm clarinets, a Penzel-Mueller Bb and an F. Arthur Uebel clarinet in A. Both work fine, sound fine and are very reliable. And I have never played a note of "Eastern" music on them (as far as I know).
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-03-28 15:25
I did not quite expect this response, but I will try to explain myself.
I am glad to hear that your full boehms are working well! I might have been a bit vague but my primary objective was to make people aware that the Amati full boehm might not be that good. It is the only full boehm I have ever tested and any general assumptions regarding other full boehms should not be taken too seriously, which you did not seem to either. I got the impression after having read about it on this forum that it was good, I found it not to be, and just wanted to share my experience and to express my opinion so as to even out with some negative criticism.
Being situated in a country that was part of the soviet bloc and offering rather cheap instruments Amati is popular among many eastern european musicians. The fact that they, among few, produce G-clarinets reinforces this view. Via different connections it has come to my knowledge that their full boehm clarinets are suited to this special genre. I found there full boehm to be of limited use in classical music.
I think I obtained my full boehm partly because of the same reasons as you did. For example, I wanted the extra keys to manage difficult sequences. The amati sure was cheap and it had those extra keys. I mean, compare let's say a silver plated E11 with a Festival. What is the actual difference in sound and manufacturing cost vs the retail price of them? Perhaps one conclusion is that you hardly ever get more than what you pay for?
Finally, my intention was not to insult you for your instruments of choice, on the contrary, you should be honored for carrying on the full boehm tradition. I stroved merely to raise the idea that half boehms may suffice and that amati is best avoided.
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Author: Pastor Rob
Date: 2012-03-28 15:38
I recently bought an old Selmer full boehm which Larry Naylor is now working over. It came in an old (trashed really) Buffet E11 case. Is there a source out there for a new case? It doesn't fit in my Leblanc double case.
Pastor Rob Oetman
Leblanc LL (today)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-28 15:59
As full Boehms are hardly offered by the top makers anymore, the only source is either an Amati case or adapting an existing case to fit the extra length of the lower joint in.
My Leblanc LL came in a Winter case which had the socket end of the lower compartment cut away so it fits in there. I adapted a standard Yamaha double case to fit my pair of full Boehms in.
The CT Bb full Boehm came with an original single case specially made for it (as did my Series 9 A full Boehm). I'm sure a Yamaha pro series single case can be adapted similarly as the inside tray is polystyrene and can easily be shaped to fit, then the fabric lining stuck back down afterwards.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-03-28 16:13
Yea, nowadays it is hard to get hold of these things. Patricola might offer cases I don't know. Not surprisingly I would not recommend Amati although they make a double case as well. Then there is Wiseman with their special cases. I would go with Chris's advice and modify an ordinary case.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2012-03-28 16:22
Alternatively, my full boehm (a Kohlert restored by and purchased from Mr. Spiegelthal....that I like very much, thank you) also fits into my BAM Trekking Double Case, in the A clarinet area (although I do have to really push the lower joint into the polyfoam a bit)....
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2012-03-28 16:26
I read (can't remember where) that the clarinet part for Peter and the Wolf was originally for full Boehm Bb clarinet. Does anyone know if this is true or has anyone seen an early part for Peter and the Wolf that is, in fact, for full Boehm Bb clarinet?
Simon
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-28 16:44
I've only ever seen two published clarinet parts for that - one for Bb and one for A so it's up to the player to chop an change depending which is the easier to play in any given movement.
Sometimes it would be good if they could do that with more pieces where the published part is easier or makes more sense when played on a different clarinet than the one specified.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2012-03-28 16:56
Attachment: Bonna 4 cls.JPG (96k)
Attachment: Triple period case.jpeg (107k)
Another option for a case for a full Boehm or full Boehm pair, is a Marcus Bonna case. The Bonna case is customizable because most of its interior pieces are held in place with a strong Velcro. As such, these pieces can be placed in different positions to accommodate the larger (or smaller) size of the clarinet joint.
I bought a second Bonna case for three of my period clarinets, knowing that I could reposition the interior pieces to properly hold the clarinet joints, all of which have different lengths than those of a standard modern clarinet.
I have attached a photo of the interior of my regular Bonna double case (in this case housing 4 clarinets: A, Bb, Eb and D, which you cannot see because it is under the Eb, well-protected, of course).
I have also attached a photo of my modified Bonna case (housing classical-era C, Bb and A clarinets) to illustrate how the interior pieces can be modified/repositioned to hold non-standard length clarinet joints.
Simon
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2012-03-28 17:20
"I've only ever seen two published clarinet parts for that - one for Bb and one for A so it's up to the player to chop an change depending which is the easier to play in any given movement."
That is exactly what I have done; made a part that is a combination of Bb and A parts. When my orchestra does Peter and the Wolf, it is usually four back-to-back students matinees, starting at 9:30 am. Like it or not, at that ungodly hour playing Peter and the Wolf is a question of seeing straight enough to get all the notes. I have a much better average playing the solo on Bb than A.
The reason I ask if anyone knows if the original part was for full-Boehm Bb clarinet is that when I try to convince my students how much less difficult the Peter and the Wolf solo is on Bb, some students feel tradition-bound and insist on playing the solo on A clarinet, even if it means missing many more notes.
It would strengthen my argument if I could show them that the original part was actually for Bb clarinet.
Simon
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Author: davyd
Date: 2012-03-28 18:33
P&W requires a low Eb on the Bb instrument. Is this option available only as part of The Full Boehm?
I also have a cut-and-paste combined Bb and A part, and am delighted to hear that this solution is, if not recommended, at least condoned by experts.
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Author: William
Date: 2012-03-28 18:42
FWIW, I recently attended a concert given by the US Navy Band (Washington) and the fourth chair clarinetist was playing a full Boehm clarinet. Didn't see the brand name.......
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-03-28 18:42
davyd wrote:
> P&W requires a low Eb on the Bb instrument. Is this option
> available only as part of The Full Boehm?
>
Tough to say. All of the boehm system Bb clarinets with a low-Eb I've seen are full boehm but I wouldn't be surprised if some were made with less complex keywork in the past. Seems like extra keywork was a lot more popular 50+ years ago than it is today which is a shame.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-03-28 18:52
I haven't heard of any non-full boehm clarinets reaching down to Eb. The only exceptions I can think of is a basset clarinet in Bb and an ordinary low Eb bass clarinet but that is quite irrelevant, I guess.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2012-03-28 19:45
In looking into the question of whether the original clarinet part to Peter and the Wolf was for full Boehm Bb, I came across a thread from 2009 in which davyd mentioned that the bass clarinet part to Prokofiev's The Love for Three Oranges is for bass clarinet in C. Larry Bocaner responded "All of Prokofiev's scores are non-transposed; i.e. every instrument is written for in concert pitch. Unfortunately he didn't specify clarinets in A or Bb or whatever. Ignorant copyists, especially in pirate editions (Kalmus?), made some poor guesses resulting in low Eb in the clarinet solo in Peter and the Wolf, also a lot of B-major arpeggios in the Classical Symphony."
Does anyone know if this is true; that Prokofiev did not specify A or Bb clarinets?
If it is true, that might explain why I see a lot of clarinet parts for Prokofiev pieces for *either* Bb or A. For example, in my orchestra's set of parts for Prokofiev's 3rd Piano Concerto, there is a part all in A and a part all in Bb. Same thing for for Peter and the Wolf and Classical Symphony.
The part for his 5th Symphony is all in Bb despite the fact that some sections would resonate better (lie better) on A clarinet. Might that be one of Larry's instances of ignorance/poor guess on the part of a copyist?
Prokofiev's 2nd Piano Concerto is for A and Bb clarinet. Might that particular piece have been copied by a copyist more informed with regards to the suitability of one clarinet over the other for various sections of the piece?
In past discussions of playing the part on the "right" clarinet, editorial interference has been raised as an issue that muddies the waters. Editorial *randomness* might be an aspect that factors itself into the discussion as well.
Simon
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-28 21:33
I've seen an otherwise plain Selmer Boehm system built to low Eb plus an 'Improved Albert' system Selmer built to low Eb as well (on 'that' auction site), so some regular Boehms (and Albert systems) built to low Eb do exist but are pretty rare.
I've even seen a pair of specially made Yamahas there too - a full Boehm Bb paired with a 19/7 A.
A 19 key 7 ring clarinet isn't technically speaking a full Boehm as it only descends to low E, so it's an almost but not quite a full Boehm system. I was pleased to read that this was Gino Cioffi's system of choice as my first set of old pro Selmers were this system and he used a crystal mouthpiece as well. But that's where the similarities end between him and myself.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-03-28 21:56
Regarding cases, my FB Selmer CTs' case is in good condition, but requires the LJ/bell and UJ/barrel to remain assembled - which I don't like.
After months of searching I found a case (below) that has enough room to modify it to accomodate the LJs.
I just haven't plucked up the courage to try and dismantle the insides yet...
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-28 23:06
That's strange in the A is at the front of the case - but you can change that once you take it apart.
The Selmer single Bb case (and single A case) also has the barrel remain on the top joint tenon, so the only thing to do is dry it fully after playing and grease the tenon cork, then put the barrel on. There's no room to leave it part off.
The double case my Series 9* set came in (that once belonged to Gino Cioffi) came in a Selmer USA double case and the bells remained on. Fortunately the previous owner (one of his pupils) made sure the bells were left halfway on after playing and during storage so they didn't freeze onto the tenon. But I found an older (and the slightly larger) Yamaha double case which keeps all the joints separated.
I'm pleased with the Yamaha double case I keep my full Boehm set in as it was easy to alter it to fit the lower joint of the A. The only downside was when it came to fitting the lower joint of the Bb as it used one of the barrel compartments and they'd cut the fabric lining at that point t make the hole for the barrel to go in, so I had to do some crafty cut'n'shutting of the lining with some excess lining material cut from the edges and underside of the tray which can't be seen, but it's only a cosmetic thing and the joints sit in there nicely. There was enough lining fabric to make a screwdriver holder as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-03-28 23:09)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-03-28 23:23
It has just occured to me - my Selmer metal clarinets are in a Selmer case. They have been out on loan for a while so don't have them here, but looking at one of my photos it looks likely that there is enough room on the left Bb side LJ to accommodate a full Boehm. I assume the A will fit fine as the metal A is FB
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-29 11:44
The only problem with the Selmer double case with the gold lining is the polystyrene used is pretty weak and crumbly. The single version was just as bad and I've had to build up or reinforce the polystyrene tray here and there with bits of wood and plastic - just the movement of the clarinet inside while carrying it to and from college was enough to break the polystyrene into dust. But I got them fairly cheap from Vincent Bach as they were ex demo cases (used for various exhibitions) instead of paying full whack for them.
I've gutted my double case and set it aside for converting into a triple case(flute, oboe and full Boehm Bb clarinet) whenever I get round to that. Maybe even a quad case with a piccolo compartment if there's enough room.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-03-29 11:59
Wow, quite a unique set up you got there. What if you got your hands on a metal full boehm Bb as well?!
When assuming the A will fit fine as the metal A is FB do you mean a wooden or metal A, because wooden ones have thicker outer diameter, right?
Interesting that we all got our preferences, I for one prefer cases where as much of the clarinet as possibly is already assembled. My ideal is mouthpiece barrel and UJ as one unit and LJ/Barrel as one. That way you can pack/unpack your clarinets faster, (although the mouthpiece still has to be dismounted and remounted everytime due to cleaning of the clarinet,) you tear less on key mechanism and emblems. In additon you might build the case more compact as you get two "columns" per clarinet instead of three as in your picture above where the columns house the following 1=LJ 2=Bell+barrel+M and 3=UJ. When you split an assembled non-full bohem clarinet in half you actually get to halves of exactly the same length allowing you to make use of the space in the case more efficiently. If you have a case that can carry the clarinets in that configuration you hardly ever have to disengage the other parts I would be happy to take the chance of them getting "stuck".
Post Edited (2012-03-29 12:00)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-03-29 12:32
Thank you, what I lack in playing ability, I make up for in my enthusiasm to collect...
The absolute external diameter of metal clarinets (including keys) is the same whether metal or not. The chimneys of the tone holes are the same distance from the bore on metals as any other. The bore sizes are the same (within design reason) whatever material the instrument is made from. They look thinner, because with metals, you are only seeing a tube a bit bigger than the bore, rather than the thickness of a wooden body.
Having said that, just the part of the clarinet that lies in an indent of a case may be a bit smaller on a metal clarinet - but from memory, the metal joints were quite loose in the Selmer case, and I suspect it is a case originally for a wooden set of instruments.
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-29 13:34
The metal Bb pictured is fitted with Selmer's No.4 spec keywork which has the forked Eb/Bb and articulated C#/G# (18/7). The No.6 is the same as No.4 plus the LH Ab/Eb lever (19/7) and the No.8 is the same as No.6 plus the low Eb - or full Boehm (20/7).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2012-03-29 21:57
For some reason, the metal FB A does not have the LJ C#/G# banana key - the wooden one does
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-29 23:14
Oh yeah - maybe someone forgot to put one on it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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