 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: normancult
Date: 2011-02-21 21:03
Attachment: 2.JPG (39k)
Attachment: 1.jpg (29k)
Hi there,
will somebody please explain to me the differences between the two register key systems of the 1193 bass clarinet pictured here?
Which is the newest of the two? Which one is better and why?
Thank you very much.
Post Edited (2011-02-21 21:06)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-21 21:06
Photo 1 looks like the current model 1193. Photo 2 looks like a previous version of the Buffet bass clarinet.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2011-02-22 00:30
Clarnibass is right. I'm presently playing an 1193 from 1992, and its register system looks like photo #2.
My tech noted a number of improvements in the newer 1193s that have convinced me that when I can afford my own, I'm going to make sure it's recent. These improvements include a faster register key response, better leverage on the low G# key-pad linkage, and an additional hole and pad for the low E, which gives better venting.
Even so, the old one has a wonderful sound.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-22 07:03
I missed the second part of your question, seems you edited it just when I was replying.
The main two differences are:
1) The newer one is more reliable to stay in adjustment.
2) The newer one has the lever you press in the direction like a sax octave key while the older one is pressed like a normal clarinet register key. For a big key like this, I prefer the newer version.
I don't remember which model Buffet exactly had the older style. I'm pretty sure the one with the water key is like this. But I remember some models that are closer to the newer one but without the water key model (I assume they are later) with also a different register key mech (but not sure if the same as the older style in the photo or not, just can't remember).
Re the comments in the post above, IMO the nwer register mech isn't really faster. If adjusted correctly, neither type slows you while playing at all. It's more to do with the way the lever moves which some players might prefer one over the other. OTOH some older models have an even smaller neck reg hole, about 2.5mm, which gives some response problem. Curent model has 3.0mm. I prefer about 3.5mm.
The low E doesn't have an additional hole and pad, the low C key does, which is an extra vent hole for the low G and clarion D notes. I think some previous incarnations of the 1193 had this too, not just the newest one, but I'm not sure.
I'm not sure what is meant by better linakge for low G# key. Do you mean for the left pinky lever? That might be, I don't remember how the linkage is on the older versions.
What is definitely better on the newer model is the entire design and linkages of the lowest notes from around Eb down. Just a lot more solid for better adjustment which is critical. Also, at least on some of the older version, the left pinky low D key feels awful.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-22 07:23
With this sax-type rocker mechanism there are far fewer adjusting screws needed (just the one connecting it to the long linkage from the A key and RH3) so once properly adjusted, it should remain in regulation far better than the older type with all those adjusting screws that can bed into the silencing material.
They can benefit greatly by having the ends of the rocker made completely spherical (filed, papered and burnished smooth) rather than having flats on them so the action is made much smoother.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-02-22 07:24)
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Author: normancult
Date: 2011-02-22 16:32
thank you so much for the information. I really appreciate it.
I was considering buying an 1193 from 1986 (the one with the register pictured in photo 2) but now I think I am gonna save a little bit more money and get the newest version.
I keep you guys posted.
Thanks a lot. :-)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-22 22:30
The main reason I bought the Buffet Prestige bass was the keywork which is very well balanced and light under the fingers when compared to a Selmer bass which has some very short leverages - especially the RH low D touch which is far too short to use comfortably (being too close to the fulcrum) no matter how much the spring tension is lightened.
I borrowed a Buffet Prestige bass back in early 1999 (probably not all that long after thet were redesigned) and then bought my own one in 2000 - the 1999 ones had adjusting screws with Allen key heads, but they changed to slotted heads by the time I got mine which is much better.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2011-02-23 01:01
I guess I misunderstood about the extra hole. Thanks for the correction.
The tech (Daniel Deitch) definitely said that the old register mechanism was slower; I think he said something along the lines of "a slight delay." YMMV, but knowing what he can do with a clarinet, I'll stick with his judgment.
I don't quite know how to describe the problem with the G# pad as he explained it to me. IIUR, it's not the key so much as it is the leverage between the part that activates the pad and the part that activates the bridge linkage. I could be wrong, but I got the impression that you can adjust it so one or the other works well, but not both.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-23 08:37
>> The tech... definitely said that the old register mechanism
>> was slower; I think he said something along the lines of "a slight delay."
I agree that the older mechanism is more likely to get out of adjustment more often (or at all). The newer mechanism may be a bit faster, but when properly adjusted there is no mechanical delay when playing with the older mechanism.
I imagine he was talking about a delay in response of clarion notes? There is a delay in some of the clarion notes, especially when played in a few specific ways. But this is a result of the neck register tube, not the mechanism. The smaller hole of this older version makes this a bigger problem than the current version.
I'm curious if your repairer has experimented with different register tube hole sizes and felt the difference? The problem is mainly for clarion E and above (E being the worst), with slightly slow and stuffy response, but mainly when playing legato from the low register.
You might be interested in this (you can try Google Language Tool for a translation) http://www.nitailevi.com/tests/bass_regtube/bass_regtube.htm
I adjusted the register mecahnism on several of both versions (older and newer) and modified the register tube on both versions too.
BTW for the problem Chris mentioned with adjusting screws digging into the material, to improve that I use a less digable (is that a word?) material and also dome the end of the screws (using a cup bit in a micromotor) so there isn't a sharp edge.
>> it's not the key so much as it is the leverage between the part that
>> activates the pad and the part that activates the bridge linkage.
You wrote this about the "low G# key". The low G# key doesn't have any linkage connected to the bridge. Its only linkage is with the low G# left pinky lever. Maybe you meant a different key?
>> to a Selmer bass which has some very short leverages - especially
>> the RH low D touch which is far too short to use comfortably
I don't remember the older ones at the moment, but just worked on a new one recently (Privilege model). The G/D touchpiece arm is actually about as long or slightly longer than the Buffet. But it is the worse design of other linkages in that mech that still cause it to feel poor in comparison. Mainly the bridge levers with the operating lever being longer and a very short operated lever. Also the linkage at the top from the long rod doesn't have the best angle and shape.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2011-02-24 02:09
Clarnibass, you're right: I was thinking of the wrong key. I meant the low-G key, operates both the low-G vent and one of the bridge linkages. I don't know how the newer one is different, but Daniel said it was a lot better.
I will ask him about the neck register tube next time I see him, if I remember. (Your description of the symptoms sounds like what I experience.) Obviously, I'm no expert, so I may have misunderstood what he meant. The main takeaway for me is that I don't want an older 1193--not that I'll be able to afford either an old or new one any time soon.
Expensive hobby, this.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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