 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kev182
Date: 2011-02-17 05:35
Hello,
I was wondering if/where people get there instruments rebored to the original model specifications after the wood has changed shaped. Is there someone that does this (for R13s specifically)? I know Morrie Backun does, but I also know he's very busy and out of my price range unfortunately.
Thank you!
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2011-02-17 05:44
I had the upper joints of my last two Bb clarinets (R13 Prestige) rebored.
One rebore was by Guy Chadash in New York and the other was by Chris Millard in Ottawa. Both rebores improved the issues caused by bore shrinkage and bore tightness at a certain point in the bore.
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Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-02-17 09:57
I talked to Morrie Backun about 3-4 years ago and asked about reboring my B/A set. At the time he said that it would be about 500$C for each clarinet. In addition to this, there is the price of the overhaul for each clarinet, but I was surprised at how cheap the reboring was. I had expected the price be much more.
I don't know what his prices are like now, but the waiting time is also an issue.
My personal opinion on reboring... it is not totally necessary all the time. I have seen clarinets in which the player feels is "blown out" or the "bore has warped/changed" that actually would be very good instruments IF IF IF they were repaired by someone that was good at repair.
They keys are loose and the pads don't seat, this is the more common source of an instrument being "blown out".
Having said that, I am not arguing that reboring is an unnecessary farce- just that it is not the only thing that can go wrong.
In addition, one more thing to think about is that reboring a clarinet often means *replacing* the bore with a plastic or hard rubber core. If you are in the camp of "the material makes a huge difference" then you might not feel good about a wood clarinet with a hard rubber bore.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-02-17 10:38
skygardener wrote:
> In addition, one more thing to think about is that reboring a
> clarinet often means *replacing* the bore with a plastic or
> hard rubber core. If you are in the camp of "the material
> makes a huge difference" then you might not feel good about a
> wood clarinet with a hard rubber bore.
If it's rebored with plastic or hard rubber, does that mean that you would need only ONE "rebore" cause the new material is much less susceptible to swelling and changing? Or at least that the time it takes for your clarinet to get "blown out" again is much longer because of the different material in the bore? (hoping someone who rebores or who has worked on rebored clarinets will chime in with their thoughts on the process...)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-02-17 15:52
Back when I was young and very foolish, I took my wonderful 1960 R13 to the famous Murray Snyder for an overhaul. He stuck a gauge down the top of the upper joint and told me "The bore has collapsed; I'll have to rebore it." It never played worth a lick afterward.
Morrie Backun and Guy Chadash know what they're doing, but most people don't. Kal Opperman told me that almost every clarinet reboring victim he saw was beyond rescue.
As skygardner says (and as Guy told me), the Chadash restoration involves drilling out the bore and inserting a Delrin liner. I've also read that Backun does this, but I don't know whether it's his standard treatment. I've also read that Moennig bored out Gigliotti's barrels and inserted a hard rubber sleeve, but Gigliotti played all day, every day. On the other hand, when Kal made a barrel, he retouched the bore once a month for several months until the wood stabilized.
Alvin Swiney says that "blow out" is caused by accumulation in the tone holes of hard plaque that builds up from material rubbed off of cloth swabs. He says removal of this is the restoration secret. http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/1999/06/000791.txt
Certainly a clarinet doesn't automatically need reboring after a few years. I'd try everything else before touching the bore.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-17 16:25
"Alvin Swiney says that "blow out" is caused by accumulation in the tone holes of hard plaque that builds up from material rubbed off of cloth swabs. He says removal of this is the restoration secret."
It's definitely the cause of stuffiness and high resistance if not addressed and removing this build-up is like switching the light on after being in the dark. I compared a customer's Esprit to my LL while she was there and the difference was incredible, then in front of her I removed the throat G# and A keys, scraped this build-up from the toneholes, put the keys back on and let her try it - it brought the previouly duff throat notes back to life, so all there was to do was give the whole clarinet a full service and clear all the toneholes of this gunk. It doesn't build up to the same degree in the large toneholes on the lower joint due to their size (although the quantity of the build-up will be roughly the same in each tonehole) but it has far more negative impact on the top joint toneholes due to their much smaller diameters. In any case, it should always be removed during a routine service.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-02-17 17:46
Sure, get your clarinet rebored every few years, it helps the economy. Make sure you change the synthetic oil in your new car every 3000 miles as well. And most importantly, floss your teeth after every meal.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2011-02-17 23:04
"Certainly a clarinet doesn't automatically need reboring after a few years."
True. I have been lucky with my A clarinet but both my last Bb clarinets experienced a marked closing of the left-hand 12ths (throat tones getting sharp, upper clarion getting flat).
I know we are not talking about period clarinets, but reboring of the shrunken bore of a boxwood clarinet is almost automatic.
From Guntram Wolf's site:
"Historical instruments have no bore lining. They must be re-bored after some period, which can be from several months to two years. When the intonation and especially the response change, it is time to do this."
On the other list, Tony Pay gave an interesting account of reboring a period clarinet himself, the day of a concert if memory serves.
Simon
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-02-18 01:20
Simon -
I was thinking of a modern, grenadilla instrument. Most historical clarinets were made of boxwood, which warps quickly and severely and needs frequent attention.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-02-18 03:26
I sort of wish I'd never gone over there and looked at Sylvain's link to the Backun shop.
Interesting that the bore had shrunk. Almost round in the upper joint, yet with a lump in the lower joint.
It hurts, too, that the clarion left hand A, B could "feel" that lump in the lower joint. (and that I could hear it).
SIGH
Bob Phillips
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-02-18 11:36
And then, much to Moennig's consternation, Gigliotti had the barrels for the Series 10 and 10G models lined at the factory. As far as I know all the 10G barrels are lined.
Karl
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-02-18 13:37
Guy Chadash does a good job with reboring. I agree with some other folks that I would try this as a last resort and only if I felt the instrument was not playable or acceptable as is. There is no guarantee that you will like the instrument after it is complete.
I would talk to a tech about any issues that you are having and see what other options may exist. Again, Guy knows as much or more than most folks about this. I would consider the least aggressive means- changing barrels, repair tweaks-different pads, key adjustments and height, minor tone hole modifications, etc, before I went with a rebore.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-02-18 13:48
Bob B. -
Ricardo is playing the new Backun MOBA model. http://backunmusical.com/clarinets.html It's just been introduced, but Ricardo is clearly playing on one he's had for a while if the bore has had time to change.
$7500 for the Bb, $8250 for the A, plus airfare to get to the shop for periodic adjustments. Probably worth it, though on the video I heard a slight dullness on the chalumeau D, and after the adjustments the clarion high B was noticeably sharp.
[Flame suit /on] As a player, I can't shine Ricardo's shoeshiner's shoes, but a cat can look at a king and notice what's right and what's not.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2011-02-18 14:21
Hello Folks,
Just to provide a little more "clarity" to some of the comments....
Ken....in that video Ricardo is playing a Clarinet that has been highly customized....NOT the MOBA Clarinet. As you can appreciate, the video clip is only a few minutes long and there was considerable other work done.....including the B voicing. You mentioned that it would have to be played some time for the bore to change. In my experience and having measured thousands of Clarinets carefully, I have seen MANY brand new instruments, of many makes that have changed shape....before the first note has been played. That is one of the reasons that keys on new instruments are often binding and in some cases, pads leak.
Typically, when I reline bores, I drill out the existing bore and insert a GRENADILLA sleeve and then recut all the tone holes and undercut, ream or machine the bore as needed. It is VERY seldom that I use synthetic liners. We are so busy building the new MOBA and Backun Clarinets that I don't get much time for "reconstructive" work any more. I enjoy helping an instrument "back to life" periodically though, I must admit! Over the years we have manufactured hundreds of reamers, as each one is very specific.
Remember folks....wood is a product of nature and often moves (sometimes for the better....sometimes not) I find that often players feel that an instrument is "blown out" when they are feeling either mechanical problems (leakage) or wood movement issues. It is important to make sure that the instrument works well and seals BEFORE deciding if bore or tonehole work is the answer.
KDK...I have seen many examples of 10G barrels that were not lined and many that were.
The main point in sharing that video was to show players that adjustments CAN be made to suit their individual tastes and needs. Many people are not aware that voicing and tuning is "ADJUSTABLE" and suffer with things that could be easily corrected to enhance their playing.
Thanks folks and HAPPY CLARINETTING!
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-02-18 19:26
Morrie, if I understand your process correctly, if you re-bore a clarinet and then install a grenadilla liner, are you not creating what is essentially a laminate structure (i.e. plywood)? Seems to be that could be troublesome a few years down the road.
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2011-02-18 21:03
Hi David,
Good question.....Actually we machine a taper in the instrument body (removing a fair amount of existing material) and then machine a matching taper onto the new sleeve. The sleeve fits in with gentle pressure and we use a special adhesive to join the two. I have been doing them for many years and to the best of my knowledge have not had any failures or parts coming "undone." The fit of the parts is very precise - so the adhesive is almost there for "peace of mind" :-)
Over the years I have made sleeves for many players and several of those were high profile players. They seemed quite happy with the results (well at least that is what they said when paying me for the work.....)
The real challenge is getting the undercutting "just right" once the sleeve has been drilled. It is important to use excellent cutters, really precise measuring equipment and good internal borescopes to check the INSIDE bore.
When properly done the work should almost be undetectable. I have not noted any degrading of the sound with a sleeve, but others may have different experience of course.
Hope that answers your question.
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-02-18 22:47
Morrie,
Not meant to challenge what you've written, but how many of those satisfied high profile players were still playing the same instrument 5 years later? Do they tend to stick with the same instrument as a result of your having done this? My limited experience with very busy, active players in major orchestra positions is that they replace their instruments every (fill in the blank for each individual) years because of "blowout" or because they just find newer models they like even better than the old one. Does your procedure tend to make them less likely to follow this routine?
To take a positive view on the subject of liners, all of my 10G barrels (25+ years old) are lined with hard rubber and I've never had, or noticed, a problem with any of them.
Karl
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2011-02-18 23:10
Hi Karl,
Several of the Clarinets I know of are still in use. I see some of them during routine maintenance/overhauls and always check the dimensions again. They seem to "hold" well. Some professional players have more than one pair that they rotate. Sometimes for sound or feel, others believe that resting every so often is good for the instruments. so those players alternate.
Usually people only ask for this kind of thing if it is an instrument they really enjoy. The procedure is quite involved and expensive, so it is usually only undertaken on very fine instruments. I have advised many players "not" to do it if the instrument was not quite good to begin with as it is not something that will "cure every problem."
There are several fine technicians who can undertake this kind of work and while it is not for 'the faint of heart" it can be of great value in reviving an instrument that has lost its core of sound. It can also be very useful when repairing badly cracked instruments that have lost their internal geometry.
I have put rubber liners in barrels for players in the past but have not been asked to do that for quite a few years now. With rubber I did notice the sound changed in a very noticeable way.
Best regards,
Morrie
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-02-19 02:26
Simon Aldrich wrote:
> True. I have been lucky with my A clarinet but both my last Bb
> clarinets experienced a marked closing of the left-hand 12ths
> (throat tones getting sharp, upper clarion getting flat).
>
Did you solve this by having them rebored?
Karl
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-02-19 03:08
Itseemsto me that unless the clarinet is truly exceptional, it would make better financial sense to sell it off and invest in a better one.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2011-02-19 03:41
> I have been lucky with my A clarinet but both my last Bb
> clarinets experienced a marked closing of the left-hand 12ths
> (throat tones getting sharp, upper clarion getting flat).
Karl asked: "Did you solve this by having them rebored?"
When Guy Chadash rebored my Bb upper joint it was initially better. The left hand upper clarion was restored, in that it did not get flatter the higher you played. The problem came back to a certain degree, as if the wood wanted to return to, and settle in, a particular state of swelling (thereby shrinking the bore).
In another case, I was playing guest principal in an orchestra and the principal bassoon (who worked on clarinets, oboes and bassoons with Morrie when he was in Vancouver) mentioned that he noticed my Bb clarinet exhibited flatness in a particular zone (around D/E just below the throat tones). He mentioned this was typical for Buffets (indeed all my Buffets Bbs have been low in that area). He said it was because of a narrowness in the bore in the area of D/E and that he had reamers for that area. He reamed out that particular portion of the bore and it greatly improved those notes, in that they were less choked, less flat and more homogenous with the surrounding notes.
Simon
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-02-19 13:58
It is amazing just how much the bore can narrow over a short time with some--not all--of the woods. Well seasoned grenadilla blackwood changes the least. Having a good purveyor helps.
I suggest (in a printed enclosure) that my barrel clients consider returning the part for adjustment (usually about a year). At that time, some woods contract by almost a hundreth of an inch. That is HUGE in clarinet terms.
The upside is that after the adjustment, things tend to stabilize, and further tweaking is not often required.
Folks who rely on simple plunger gauges do not get a true picture of what is happening.
Note that the measurements are made along several diameters, as MB showed in the tone hole adjustment.
As far as rubber bore replacement--Tony G. had his own make barrels done with rubber liners. I have one as a sample. The dimensions are Classic Moennig.
Disclaimer...I make and sell barrels, (and charge a nominal fee for the bore readjustment, and perform this service only on my own creations).
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-02-19 21:41)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-02-19 21:29
If instruments are made from properly matured wood and the bore regularly oiled in the early stages at least I don't believe they should move very much.
I have several clarinets and many barrels the youngest being about 30years and the others up to 50+.
My pair of Leblancs were brand new in 1960 and both barrels are true to within 1/1000th inch along their gentle reverse cone and even in roundness measured with engineering grade dial bore guages.
I was in the army then and that pair cost me a whole years pay - you bet I looked after them and oiled them every few weeks to start with.
All the other instruments come pretty close to the same tolerances.
When I worked for some years with a hand maker of clarinets we didn't touch the wood for between 5 -10 years after receiving it (and it was already reasonably mature when received).
From then on the processes of roughing exterior, putting in undersize pilot holes, turning exterior to finish dimension, reaming bore just undersize and then final reaming were all separated by periods of several years.
These instruments are played by some of the worlds top professionals and I have never heard of one requiring a rebore.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-02-20 03:21
Hopefully, before this thread dies, I have one question that I hope will be answered...
Q: Have those that rebore instruments ever taken measurements or had to rebore a Buffet Greenline, or other "hybrid" mix clarinet (Hanson reinforced grenedilla or anything else similar)? I'm wondering if the greenline composition really cuts down on the swelling and changing of the bore, and if so, then does it mean that what you hear when you test it is pretty much what you'll hear for many MANY years to come....
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2011-02-20 06:44
Sylvain's posting of Morrie working is pretty amazing. I've sometimes felt my instruments have lost something of their original sound. Usually new pads and/or a new barrel has somewhat remedied the situation.
I've got to admit a fair amount of ignorance with the concept of the bore shrinking. The idea I had was that cleaning and wear and tear could actually increase the bore.
Thanks to those above for the new info.
I have a fantastic repair guy in Melb but I'm not sure if anyone in Australia has the expertise to do what Morrie does.
Chris.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-20 07:05
With all the different makes and models of pro clarinets on the market and having reamers made specifically for each of them will be an expensive undertaking (especially when new models come onto the market), so only a handful of specialists will be prepared to take on this kind of work.
Reboring oboes was done regularly when I was at Howarth and usually done within the first couple of years when an instrument came in for a routine check-up or a service. I rebored my own and not only had the bore pulled in, but in other places it had opened up leaving low spots due to the nature of wood.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-02-21 14:21
Fascinating. I suppose if your upper joint is truly polycylindrical then you could use an adjustable reamer (and a lot of patience ;D). But I guess you'd need the real deal for the lower bore.
What effect does bore shrinkage have on intonation?
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-02-21 14:46
Chris P echoed the findings I noted (above) that most shrinkage happens in the first year. Not all instruments nor barrels, for that matter, are effected.
As far as reamers go....it helps to have a great machinist or the ability to grind your own.
Bassie, Adjustables are nice....but....they are typically expandable only with the blades in parallel formation, so the taper winds up being highly incremental (think of how you were taught differential calculus showing minute steps approximating a curve) ...I gues you could call the result polycylindrical, with the emphasis on "poly."
OR...you can grind your own blades on a slope, or use multiple setups of custom made reamers until you reach the end goal. Or widen from the inside using a lathe with a swing-out facing and elongated internal collet or adaptable chuck. If I tell you what I personally use I would have to......oh well,
When you are done....you can burnish.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-02-21 15:46
My impression is that "polycylindrical" is actually a sequence of tapers. Am I correct in that?
Bob Phillips
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-02-21 15:53
My impression was that the original 'polycylindrical' bore was indeed made with a series of straight reamers in small steps. But then a 'straight' reamer has a lead-in taper so you'd never see steps on the bore even if this was the case. It would look more 'polytapered'...
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-02-21 16:34
There was a picture of a clarinet upper joint bore, in longitudinal crossection, upon which a repair person marked the diameter measurements sequentially. I think the item was being offered for auction on that innominate site from someone who was tossing out unwanted clutter from his/her shop.
If it was accurate, the term "sequentially diminishing-diameter cylinders" would apply.
Reamers come in a variety of flavors:
1.French cut type.....one blade like area attached to a solid curved bar.....imagine a grapefruit corer with only one side sharp, and the body made of heavy steel.Problems arise as the reamer needs to be rehoned. It loses dimension.
This can be compensated by a waferlike shim, or by a new tool.
2.Then there are spiral and straight multifluted cutters.
Either type can be ground into stepped configuration.
3.Boring bars with indexable carbide inserts are another option.
4. Internally active free-hand boring tools (think bowl turning in a tunnel)
5. and of course.
My favorite, and one that I personally use ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) .....Nanotechnology
nanobots that are pre-programmed to bore and polish to atom-thick
dimensions, while the operator/owner can indulge other "intellectual"
pursuits.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-02-21 16:35)
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2011-02-24 06:13
Simon,
What effect did the opening of the bore have on the 12ths above, and what effect did it have on the overall sound and resistance of the instrument?
Chris
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2011-02-25 03:32
More discussion of this topic:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=256861&t=255462
My 1967 R-13 B flat continues to play marvelously after its rebore in 2007 (with a hard rubber sleeve, btw) by Guy Chadash.
If appropriate, this can restore an instrument to new or better-than-new condition in my experience.
I have also had four colleagues here in the NYC area have this procedure done by Guy, and all of them have been very pleased with the results.
AB
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2011-02-25 16:24
"Simon, What effect did the opening of the bore have on the 12ths above, and what effect did it have on the overall sound and resistance of the instrument?"
The effect of restoring the upper joint's bore to its original specs opened the 12ths (raised the sinking 12ths above and lowered the very high throat tones). It also opened the sound in the sense that it removed the low ceiling which seemingly pushed down the left hand upper octave ("pushing down" referring to both pitch and volume limitation).
This "opening" of the sound gave the impression of "unchoking" the upper clarion register, so in that sense there was a freeing of resistance.
Simon
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