 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Pam
Date: 2010-12-01 13:02
My daughter is wanting a new mouthpiece for her E11 clarinet (to replace her Vandoren B45) and has been doing comparisons between the Vandoren 5RV Lyre, the Vandoren M30 and the Mitchell Lurie M3. Originally she was only looking at the Vandorens, but her current director told her he "hated" Vandoren and to look at the Mitchell Lurie. We can't find any in the local stores so before we order, she is looking for some advice on what the pro's and con's may be for the different pieces. =
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-12-01 13:13
Her director is clueless. Your daughter should go to the music store and try every mouthpiece of every brand and model she can get her hands on, until she finds one SHE likes.
I hate to say this, but most band directors are idiots when it comes to 'advising' their students on equipment matters.
There is so much variability from sample-to-sample between mass-produced mouthpieces (of which Vandoren and Mitchell Lurie are just two of the more popular brands) that every mouthpiece needs to be judged on its own merits, not by the label on it.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-12-01 13:23
What David said.
.
My daughter is currently using a Vandoren M series mouthpierce. It was good enpugh for her to land her the principal clarinet position in her university's top band, as well as one of the two regular clarinet chairs in tthe University's symphony orchestra. She is a music major (actually a double major) and her teacher is a symphony player. They went through literally dozens of different mouthpieces, before they decided the Vandoren was the best one for her.
A number of professionals use Vandoren mouthpieces, so I would not hesitate to consider them as good candidates.
Best thing is to try the diffeent mouthpieces to see what works best for her.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-12-01 13:58
Why is your daughter replacing the B45 in the first place? The playing characteristics of a different facing (5RVL, M30, etc.) will be different, but the general quality of the mouthpiece is the same among B45 and any other VanDoren or, for that matter, Lurie or several other mass-produced mouthpieces in their price range. Is your daughter looking for a specific character of response? Is the B45 damaged? She may not really need a new one at all.
Karl
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Author: William
Date: 2010-12-01 14:27
Trying as many mouthpieces as you can is certainly good advice, but it can become confusing--even paralysing in the "long run". I think that, at best, you should pick a mouthpiece that plays reasonably well (not necessarily "perfect") and then follow the great Daniel Bonade's advice, "Go home and learn how to play it". So much also depends on how well you adapt your reed to whatever mouthpiece you play that recommending any particular model as "best" is just not practical. Even if you pick products by my two favorite mpc makers--Gregory Smith or Walter Grabner--no two of their products will play exactly the same nor can you proclaim any of them as "best". It is only good if it plays good for you.
I also agree that your band director is not giving you his best advice--and I say this as a former band director. Follow your instincts, do a lot of research and try as many different mouthpieces as you can. But remember, there is no such thing as the "perfect" mouthpiece for everyone--just which one will play "good" for you. You still have to take it home and learn how to make it sing. Most of us continue to do the same with different clarinets, ligatures, custom bells & barrels and (horrors of horrors) reeds. Finding your "good" mouthpiece may take a lifetime.....have fun and good luck.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2010-12-01 18:34
As long as your daughter is a student meaning not specializing in clarinet there is no particular reason to leave the Vandoren mouthpieces. For the money you spend they are well worth it. Many professional players use Vandoren all their carreers.
When trying mps you need to be methodic.
Make sure she has at least 5-10 playable reeds of various strength. Let's say, if she is usually on #3 then use #2½-3½ in the selection. For example, a B45 requires a lot softer reed than a 5RV. At least by one number.
Remember, a long facing or a small tip opening requires a harder reed than a mp with a short facing or large tip opening.
Let her try several different reeds on each mp.
Vandoren "13"-series has a lower intonation so meybe she would need a one mm shorter barrel for that.
Always try mps with a tuning machine.
Good luck,
Alphie
Post Edited (2010-12-01 19:58)
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-12-01 19:05
A lot of what I do as a teacher, even at the university level, is try to undo what a band director has "taught" a clarinetist (think french horn player teaching a clarinet student how to form an embouchure).
"The playing characteristics of a different facing (5RVL, M30, etc.) will be different, but the general quality of the mouthpiece is the same among B45 and any other VanDoren"
This has not been my experience. The "general quality" between a B45 and an M30/M15/M13 is radical, chalk and cheese. The longer facing of the M series creates a deeper, richer sound. Discussing longer-faced mpcs' richer sound, there are some good contributions in the current thread entitled "So why are shorter facings less popular?", particularly NBeaty's lucid comments.
"Vandoren "M"-series has a lower intonation"
This has not been my experience. My orchestra starts at 442 and with my M30s/M15s I am never low. The Series 13 are low-pitched mouthpieces (440). Some M series mpcs are Series 13 but the ones that are not play comfortably above 442.
(Apologies to those who do not like 440 described as "low-pitched" and those horrified at the notion of playing "comfortably above 442".)
------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-12-01 19:29
Simon Aldrich wrote:
> "The playing characteristics of a different facing (5RVL, M30,
> etc.) will be different, but the general quality of the
> mouthpiece is the same among B45 and any other VanDoren"
> This has not been my experience. The "general quality" between
> a B45 and an M30/M15/M13 is radical, chalk and cheese. The
> longer facing of the M series creates a deeper, richer sound.
I agree with your comparison, but that's really within the realm I meant to describe as "playing qualities." I don't think the *manufacturing* quality of the various model lines is different - they are made on the same machines with the same level of finishing and the same level of quality control. I only meant that, unless Pam's daughter has a reason based in the sound or response of the B45, there may not be a pressing reason for her to replace it. It sounds as if the school band director was the only source of direction.
For the record (in the spirit of full disclosure), I don't play on Vandorens at all, but, because they're available and relatively inexpensive, I recommend a couple of the ones in the Mxx series (mostly M13L and M15) to students who want to replace what they're using.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2010-12-01 19:46
In about 1955, I bought a Mitchell Lurie mouthpiece from him out of his home and I still use it today, with some facing touchups by me. I've also bought several for my three granddaughters and refaced them also. No wonder we sound the same!
Nevertheless, I've heard that recent ML mouthpieces are not used so much. I suspect that refacing the lay would be a good idea with a new one to make sure that the reed-mouthpiece combination is stable, there is good projection, and it sounds good.
Without trying them, I would probably go with a standard VD mouthpiece such as the B45 as VD has a good reputation. Good Luck!
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-01 22:51
One thing struck me at the start of this thread. The Vandoren M30, when first encountered requires that you stick the darn thing so far into your mouth that the tip strikes your soft pallet.
Now, that's an exaggeration (of sorts); but I want to emphasize that you don't get M30 character out of and M30 unless you take a lot of it into your mouth.
If you are trying mouthpieces and someone slips in a very long layed facing into the mix, you could go right past it if you don't know "what's up with that."
Be sure to play an open G and take in more and more mouthpiece until it squeaks. Back off 'til it behaves and THEN try it out.
Full disclosure: my main mouthpiece is an M30/13 that has been given a friendly (shorter, and other things) facing by Lee Livengood.
Bob Phillips
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-12-02 16:23
To Original Post: Michell Lurie, in my experience, are not common mouthpieces. Vandorens are not bad mouthpieces and offer many options at reasonable prices.
To any who care to read on!:
I agree that the facings and varying internal dimensions of various vandorens make them all different enough to create significantly different playing experiences and sounds.
I also think that the material Vandoren uses makes each vandoren model somewhat of a "varation" on the same thing. 13 series and non-13 series are their basic models, one being lower pitched with a deeper baffle and the other (non-13) having a more straight baffle and higher pitched.
"Where the rubber meets the road" regarding these mouthpieces:
The B45 and, for example, the M15 (non-13 series) are very similar in respect to the material and overall design relative to the difference in facing design. The B45 (which has for some reason become a popular\traditional beginner mouthpiece) is, what I would consider to be, extremely open (1.19) with a medium to medium short length. The M15 is moderately close (1.03) and a long facing.
Any variation in internal dimensions between the two is not nearly as significant as the difference in facing. Reeds will not be interchangeable between these two mouthpieces.
More moderate\traditional facings would be between the M13lyre and 5RV lyre on vandorens mouthpiece chart. Most people can find an acceptable mouthpiece in that range and will be well served.
Regarding the "hate vandorens" comment. Did he say why he hates vandorens?
(The "Nathan's thoughts and opinions" portion of this post)
Vandorens offer the most variety of facings and are accepted and played by more students and professionals than any other machine made mouthpiece. So, they've done something right!
On the other hand, they are machine made. They are generally less consistent from mouthpiece to mouthpiece. For example, the M30 that I own has a 1.10mm tip opening while the advertised tip for an M30 is 1.15. There is significant variation from mouthpiece to mouthpiece, even within the same model is the moral of the story there.
In addition to variation in design, the quality of rubber, while decent and high enough to have broad appeal, is not high quality (relative to both vintage mouthpieces and other rubber being produced today).
Their inconsistency and moderate quality rubber aren't really opinions of mine, but just the reality. Does this mean I think they are bad mouthpieces or that everyone should stop using them? Of course not. Many students as well as professionals have great success with them. I have also played Vandorens for a large part of my clarinet life.
I would also say that many people would be better served on a Vandoren than what they currently use (from bad vintage mouthpieces to poorly faced or poor quality rubber modern mouthpieces). Also, vandorens can be improved with a good refacing, although unless you have a friend who refaces mouthpieces, the cost is the same as a new vandoren.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2010-12-02 17:01
I have no experience with the Mithcell Lurie mouthpieces, but lots of good results with the Vandoren mouthpieces. Most of my students have better results with the M13 Lyre or M13 mouthpieces than the B45. I guess I like the sound of the close tip, longer facing and harder reed combination of the M13 type mouthpieces, and my students generally find them easier, more responsive to play. But, you should try a few different types to see what's most comfortable and sounds and tunes best. Had a student just last night with the same setup as your daughter: E11 clarinet, B45 mouthpiece. She just made the switch to the M13 Lyre, and seems happy about it. Of course, everyone is a bit different. I think the Vandorens are probably priced best and of the highest quality for machine-made mouthpieces. It is good to go to a place with a large selection so she can try several of the same model once she decides on a model she likes. As mentioned above, they do vary somewhat even in the same model.
Lori
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-12-02 17:27
Nathan wrote:
"On the other hand, they are machine made. They are generally less consistent from mouthpiece to mouthpiece. For example, the M30 that I own has a 1.10mm tip opening while the advertised tip for an M30 is 1.15. There is significant variation from mouthpiece to mouthpiece, even within the same model is the moral of the story there."
I agree that there is a degree of inconsistency from mouthpiece to mouthpiece within each of Vandoren's model lines.
Largely tangential to the question in the original post, though, Nathan inadvertently brings up an interesting problem. Tip gauges don't all measure the same. I saw this more clearly than ever when I sat down with Chris Hill, who was refacing some mouthpieces I had brought to him. The tip measurements he got with his taper gauge were as much as .04 mm larger than the measurements I had gotten when I measured the same mouthpieces at home. Of course, it doesn't matter whose gauge is "right" if the mouthpiece finisher is simply comparing two mouthpieces using the same gauge. It's the difference that's important. But comparing the tip measurements you get by actually measuring a mouthpiece to the ones advertised by the manufacturer and finding them different may not indicate as much variation as it appears to.
Karl
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-12-02 17:54
Comparing B45 side-by-side with M30 will be a challenge... I reckon there's a whole reed strength between those two. I mean, if you play a 3 on a B45 you might have to find some 4's to try the M30.
That is to say, play-testing mouthpieces is fraught with difficulty at the best of times...
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-12-02 18:08
Karl,
Indeed, tip gauges can be widely different. For the "record", my tip gauge measures up the same as *name drop opportunity not taken* AND more importantly, all other vandorens I have (at least 5 or 6 others) measure up to their model specs. My two M13lyres for instance measure to about 1.02, two M14's (that's right, the ones you can hardly ever find!) to 1.01 which is their perscribed tip opening.
Not meaning to argue with you Karl, just aknowledge your point and to let you (and whoever else cares) that my tip gauge measures up with one of the most respected mouthpiece makers (not only refacer) as well as with other Vandorens.
Regarding my M30, I prefer a closer facing so I'm guessing that's what brought me to the one I purchased out of the pool of 6 that I tried out. Most of the others were probably around the 1.15 mark that they're 'supposed' to be or even a bit more open.
Thanks Karl for the reference point I forgot to mention in my previous post!
FWIW: I'd play an M30 over a B45 (or recommend) any day.
FWIW (again): If I had to play a vandoren, I would play one of my M14's. If I needed higher pitch, I would buy an M15 (non-13 series) and close the facing to what I like. Probably would adjust the thickness of the rails and modify the baffle slightly.
That's if someone took all my other mouthpieces and only let me have a vandoren...
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-12-02 19:42
After looking around the internet, I think that Mitchell Lurie mouthpieces are out of production. I can't find any information about a current maker. I could find a few isolated examples for sale online but I suspect that these are clearance items the seller is trying to get rid of. The prices are generally under $30 (except Weiner Music, which shows a current price of $55 "while supplies last") -- considerably less than the original price and quite cheap for a "brand name" hard rubber mouthpiece. (The late Mitchell Lurie hasn't made them in years, BTW.) Amazon says the mouthpieces are made by Rico. While Rico makes Mitchell Lurie reeds, however, the Rico website does not include the mouthpiece among the company's mouthpiece products.
I don't use Vandoren mouthpieces but I own a few. I've heard a saying that, sooner or later, every serious clarinetist will own at least one Vandoren mouthpiece. That might be an overstatement but it's probably close to the mark. They are ubiquitous. The production quality is good, the price reasonable, and Vandoren probably offers a wider variety of tip opening and facing length combinations than any other manufacturer. I maintained my Virgandoreninity for a long time but finally lost it when one sneaked in unannounced with a clarinet I bought on eBay. Your daughter's director may "hate" Vandoren's. That doesn't mean your daughter will.
FWIW, I own an older (machine made -- either in France or on a French blank) Mitchell Lurie M3. IMO, it's nothing special. If you want to try one, at < $25 plus shipping from Amazon, it won't break the bank (or, at Weiner's price, you can return it if your daughter doesn't like it). Also, FWIW, if any of your local stores carry the Fobes Nova or Roger Garrett's mouthpieces, these would be worth a try. They are pretty much in the same price range as Vandorens.
Best regards,
jnk
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