 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2010-10-01 05:05
I have heard/read more than once that it is necessary to play slightly sharp in the altissimo range because when the notes in this range are played on pitch, they "sound" flat to most ears. I think pianos are also tuned slightly sharp in the upper ranges as well.
My questions: (1) Have I been drinking to much amontillado tonight, and this is all in my imagination? (2) If there is some credence to this thought, what do the pros recommend as an appropriate level of sharpness (e.g. 5 cents) , and at what note should it start?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-10-01 07:29
I'd say use your ears and your intuition...
I remember having read that the average (not especially trained) ear's pitch detection "granularity" is about 10 cents (trained musisians might detect maybe 5 cents), so don't even bother with less than 10 cents, and bear in mind that many of us would consider themselves lucky if they had instruments that would play everything within a 10 cents deviation band.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-10-01 11:14
I would set the tuner to "sound" and tune from "bottom-up." That is, if you listen to violinists setting the tunning on their open strings they start flat and gliss up. This is because we hear "flat" much easier than "sharp." So, if with this technique the note SOUNDS in-tune with the tuner, then you're ok.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-01 13:09
There's an old, and one of my favorite quotes, "it's better to be sharp than out of tune". I believe that comes from the fact that sharp sounds brilliant and flat sounds out of tune and ugly but here's the basic facts. It's always better to just be in tune. Since pitch is relative it's more important to be able to play in tune with the person or ensemble, or piano, you're playing with so you really have to play by ear. With that said I suggest that you try to find fingerings in that register that allows you to be able to play on pitch but are able to be a little sharp or flat as needed. It's easier to come down a bit than to have to pinch the pitch up so in that case it probably is better to be just a little sharp rather than a little bit flat. There are many fingerings for those high notes, I have a good fingering chart on my website, take a look at it and try to learn two or three fingerings for each of those notes where possible so you can be flexible up there. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2010-10-01 13:19
You cannot adjust sharpness on this altissimo register arbitrarily.
Depending on the fingering, usually each note has a tendency for sharp or flat or dull etc.
But you cannot just make it sharp 5 or 10 cents at your will.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2010-10-01 15:15
From Donald E. Hall, "Musical Acoustics", 2nd ed. 1990 chapter 6.6
"Now it is time to admit that pitch is not entirely determined by frequency and loudness is not determined by intensity alone. Let us now examine here the dependence of pitch upon intensity or waveform, and of of loudness upon frequency."
"The first case is a relatively minor effect. Large changes in intensity can produce shifts of as much as a semitone in pitch perception, even when the frequency remains constant. Low pitches tend to sound a bit lower, and high pitches a little higher when made very loud, medium pitches are hardly affected. This effect occurs mainly for sine waves or other quite simple waveforms... But the complex waveforms most often used in music have stable pitch that does not depend on intensity..."
Perhaps this is relevant to the clarinet in the altissimo where the waveform becomes simpler, less rich in harmonics; if so, a fff F6 might be perceived sharp though perfectly in tune. The same note, played ppp (if you can do it!) would be perceived as in tune.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-10-01 16:56
EP--"it's better to be sharp than out of tune"--I like that one.....
One of my fav's comes from a old local jazz player who always muses, "It's better to play in tune than be in tune".
A local symphony clarinetist used to say he tuned sharp because it made him "sound better". I only lasted one concert series playing second to him.
Another symphony clarinetist from our local professional group used to say, "good intonation was good cooperation" (within the ensemble).
Intonation is never an absolute science and the use of a tuning meter is only a "good start". After that, it's all relative--listen, adjust and play in tune.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-01 19:45
Koo Young Chung, I really have to differ with you. It is indeed very possible to raise or lower the pitch of a note in the altissimo register. It's especially easy to make a note flat. Depending on how much you do will depends on how much tone quality you may loose but 5 or even 10 cents in many cases is not a problem for a professional player, we do it all the time in a professional orchestra when needed. Of course everyone tries to use a fingering that is well in tune first, sometimes knowing that one has to open an extra key, ex. the RH fork key for high F# on most clarinets. Or covering a tone hole to bring the pitch down on a certain note, ex. covering the 3rd tone hole RH for some of the high G fingerings. But the bottom line is this, you enter on a high note that is sharper, or flatter, than what someone else is playing you HAVE to make an adjustment on that pitch regardless if the fingering you used is "in tune" or not. In order to play in tune you have to know how to adjust on the spot and that may mean "pitching up a bit or loosing down a bit. Sometimes the person you're playing with is higher or lower than you and in a perfect world both of you will adjust. Just think what it would sound like if the flute was already holding a high F or G and you entered on that note sharper or flatter, do you simply hold it out of tune or try to change fingerings, no, you make the adjustment on the spot with either your embouchure or adding or opening an extra key or tone hole. ESP
PS. Our former 2nd clarinet player, 51 years with the BSO, used to say " intonation is a musicians decease".
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-10-02 21:26
re post 2).
the reason pianos are tuned sharp in the higher reaches is to make those notes in tune with the harmonics of the lower strings.
The harmonics of the thick lower bass strings are not true to the fundamentals, especially with the shorter string lengths of most pianos (i.e. most are not 9 foot concert grands).
The harmonics tend to be rather sharp and so the bass strings are tuned slightly lower than theoretically correct and the high strings slightly sharper to prevent a clash of intonation.
The ear cannot really detect the difference of the fundamentals when they are 5 or so octaves apart but would immediately hear the clash of the harmonics if these not tamed.
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2010-10-04 00:26
Thanks for such a great discussion, everyone. The discussion of piano harmonics was fascinating. It raises the following in my mind: Is a nine-foot Steinway tuned sharp in the upper notes, or are the strings in the lower notes long enough to have "better" harmonics not needing the tuning described by Norman Smale?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-10-04 17:09
Ed,
my understanding is that even a 9 foot Steinway needs some humouring, just a lot less than the average piano.
The finest piano tuners work entirely by ear and the end result they seek is is to make the piano SOUND perfectly in tune with itself even if theoretically it's not (accepting equal temperament can really never be "perfect").
Norman
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