 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Corey
Date: 2010-07-24 20:05
I have a wonderful Rossi Honduran Rosewood Bflat horn. I have had to have one crack pinned already and another is appearing. Rossi advised that I not oil the horn, but others disagree. It is light weight, perfectly balanced and my favorite. Should I oil or not to help prevent more cracks??? Also Rossi advised not pinning, only filling...but I couldn't do that!
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2010-07-24 21:08
Dear Corey:
I am sorry that your clarinet has cracked, but am mystified about why, in light of your history of following advice about care of this clarinet, you pose a question here.
Luis Rossi is a professional clarinetist who also makes clarinets. You bought a rosewood clarinet from him. Your clarinet cracked. Rossi advised you not to pin the clarinet, but to fill the crack instead. You disregarded the manufacturer's advice and had the crack pinned instead of filled.
You say that you "had to have the crack pinned." Why did you have to have the crack pinned? Did somebody hold a pistol to your head and threaten to pull the trigger if you didn't have the crack pinned? Was your decision to have the crack pinned based on the advice of a preeminent repairman?
Now you say that another crack is appearing and you ask whether to oil the bore "to help prevent more cracks." You admit that the manufacturer says that you should not oil the bore. Have you contacted Rossi for advice? Do you know more about rosewood and cracks than Luis Rossi?
Opinions about oiling abound; you might just search the topic on this board. If you clarinet is under warranty, though, I believe that I would heed the advice of the manufacturer.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-24 21:41
I can't see any problem with oiling rosewood as it too is wood and part of the Dalbergia group (along with grenadilla). Having finished kingwood, rosewood and cocobolo instruments I've always oiled the bores on them (I also own a kingwood oboe) to offer some protection from moisture as would be done with grenadilla instruments. Rosewood isn't as dense or stable as grenadilla and really ought to be treated like any timber to prevent it cracking (which includes oiling the bore).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-07-24 23:00
Depending on exact location of crack(s) I suggest investigating having it carbon banded. This is a much better fix than pinning as it supports the wood all around 360 degrees of the tube.
If there is stress in the wood then pinning can cause this stress to reappear in another area.
I am also a great believer in (proper) oiling of the bore but I know both Rossi and Eaton do not recommend it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-25 01:49
I've just oiled an Eaton International's bore as it was very dry. The coating on the end grain on the tenons has all been chipped off so I'll be using wax to seal that as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mario Poirier
Date: 2010-07-25 03:18
Actually, what Mr. Rossi said makes lot of sense considering how Rossi clarinets are built (I have owned a Bb and an A for 12 years now - both rosewood).
The Rossi is a single body instrument. However, the bore in the section more of less corresponding to the usual top joint is made out of an ABS insert. Yes clarinet fans! This loveliest of instruments actually uses plastic for its upper body where the influence of bore design is the most pronounced.
As well, all tone holes controlled by keys (i.e.: those not sealed directly by fingers) are built, again, from inserted plastic bushings, nicely tapered in the bore as it should be, with a neat ridge where pads touch the holes.
From the perspective of the air flow in the upper bore, the Rossi is a plastic instrument.
So, it is perfectly possible for a crack to appear between two plastic-lined tone-holes and have not effect whatsover on anything (except on the mind of the clarinetist) as bore integrity and seal would remain intact.
I actually have a minuscule hair line crack in my Bb. It appeared 2 years ago after I forgot my case in the trunk of my car, in the garage, after returning from a gig, in a cold Canadian February winter night with sub-zero temperature (you are allowed to call me any kind of names here as nothing you can say would even come close to the words I used to describe myself the following morning...).
So, back to Mr. Rossi's comments: there is no need to pin as what is only needed is to prevent the crack from worsening without having to worry about the structural integrity of the repair. A simple filling would do, as well as a carbon band I suppose.
I am assuming that your cracks appeared up in the horn, between two of the smaller tone holes, as they usually do. It would be interesting to get more context, in particular the locations of cracks and the exact exchanges between you and Mr. Rossi as we are all keen (at least we Rossi's owners) to learn from your experience.
Mario Poirier
Post Edited (2010-07-25 03:47)
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Author: Mario Poirier
Date: 2010-07-25 03:30
Answer: Because half of it is plastic...
Going back to my previous post, I looked at my crack with the idea of visualizing the geometry and alignment of a pin. The tolerances are actually quite small and it would take a superb technician not to touch the ABS insert when installing a pin. Imagine that the bore wall is 50-50 ABS (inside) and wood (outside). You can see why a pin hole would have to be drilled with extreme precision to remain in the wood deep enough to do a proper structural job yet not so deep as to damage the ABS bore.
Mario Poirier
Post Edited (2010-07-25 03:49)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-25 09:57
Aah, I didn't realise Rossis had lined bores - thanks for the insight there, Mario.
That makes sense considering they're a one piece body as that would mean a complete body replacement if the upper part split. And also the reason not to pin any cracks as it'll go into the bore lining - so any cracks can be filled with superglue.
However, on exotic wood clarinets with unlined bores, treat them as you would do any wooden clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-25 16:15
Eric - just read on your site earlier Wurlitzer lacquer the bore on their clarinets, and can relacquer it when it flakes off.
I have to admit I coated the bore on my kingwood oboe with thin superglue and then reamed it out to leave it smooth, but still impregnated/coated. Haven't had to oil it since and that was around 8 years ago.
The Schreiber oboes made for Buffet have a lined bore, and now Yamaha offer a plastic bore on their 400 series oboes and an ebonite sleeved bore on their 800 series. Howarth too offer partially sleeved top joints on some of their instruments (oboes and cors) which is much better than offering an entirely plastic top joint wat with the amount of thermal expansion/contraction plastic exhibits - plus the notoriously weak mid tenon.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-07-25 16:37
Very interesting info, Chris. Many thanks.
I believe the Wurlitzer lacquering process is only for the break-in period of the first two years or so. Once that lacquer starts to peel, the bore is polished a final time, and no re-lacquering is needed.
Charles Stier would know more about this, though--he's been through the whole process, whereas my vintage Fritz's were already made, lacquered, broken-in, and polished before I was born! Anyone interested in learning more can feel free to contact us through the site for more info.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-25 16:48
Strange that Yamaha have copied Wurlitzer clarinets, but haven't copied this bore lacquering aspect!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mario Poirier
Date: 2010-07-25 16:50
Are all Rossis built with an ABS-lined bore?
I cannot answer for sure as my sample size is quite limited. My instruments were built in the late 90`s, rosewood, so-called "American bore" model (corresponding to the r-13 bore design). Maybe other material or bore configurations, or newer/older instruments are different in their construction.
If Rossi owners out there can have a look at their instrument and feel like posting, that would be great.
Please note that the presence of a liner is easy to miss. When new, the upper end of my horns (where the barrel connects) was sealed with a brownish coating hiding the seam between the liner and the wood body proper. For quite a while I enjoyed my Rossis without having any clue as to the way they were built.
After a few years, this coating started to flake on my instruments and a seam appeared. A couple of e-mail later I had learned about the presence of the ABS liner (the reason for the seam). As well, and on the express advise of Mr. Rossi, I simply resealed the seam with transparent nail polish (with the seam now clearly visible). I do that whenever the nail polish coating shows sign of deterioration (every couple of years).
If you have a lined-bore instrument with no flaking of the coating in the upper end, it might not be obvious that a liner exists. You have too look inside the bore to observe the perfect plastic-like sheen of the upper bore ending where a barely visible junction between the liner and the wood can be found half way down the tube. With a small light illuminating the bore (say from the other end), this becomes more apparent.
Mario Poirier
Post Edited (2010-07-25 17:22)
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Author: Mario Poirier
Date: 2010-07-25 16:55
Oh yes, an important point here for general maintenance of my clarinets. According to Mr. Rossi, the reason you have to keep this seam sealed at all time is to prevent minute infiltrations of water between the liner and the wood. As you know, this area of the horn accumulates lot of moisture. Who knows what could happen if some is allowed to find its way between the liner and the wood.
Mario Poirier
Post Edited (2010-07-25 17:23)
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2010-07-25 20:55
Regarding this question:
Are all Rossi clarinets made with this half-plastic bore?
My 2 Rossi clarinets (large-bore, rosewood A and Bb) as well as the Rossi Bb (French model, rosewood) of a student of mine does not have an ABS-lined bore. The clarinet bore is totally wood in each of these instruments.
Tom Piercy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-25 20:58
If a gap appears between the plastic lining and the timber, you can always run thin superglue into it until no more gets drawn in. The same can be done with wooden flutes and piccolos with metal lined wooden headjoints if the metal liner comes loose.
As the toneholes have plastic inserts, they're most likely drilled into the plastic bore lining too so any gaps between the wood and the lining shouldn't be an issue (and should be easy enough to fill if they develop.
I was also going to ask if grenadilla bodied Rossis have the partially lined bore as their rosewood ones.
The only clarinets I know of that have a lined bore are Selmer 10Gs - but that's only the barrels (with ebonite linings) on some of them. There is the option of having an existing clarinet rebored by opening up the bore and fitting an ebonite lining in place, then reboring the top joint to whatever specification and undercutting the toneholes - I can't remember who offers this service but I read it on here a while back.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-07-25 21:15
Along with Tom, my Rossi French bore Bb does not have an insert.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Corey
Date: 2010-07-25 23:36
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS.
Here is more information.
My cracking Rossi rosewood Bflat horn is #A176. Perhaps it is an early model as it does not have a liner. (My C rosewood Rossi does) So to answer your questions...the initial cracks were near the octave key tone hole and beyond it, but not through the entire body of the instrument. The recent cracks are just opposite through the Rossi flower trademark and name and an adjacent one toward the A tone hole. Given what has been said I wonder if I should:
1. Go ahead and oil it, as it has no liner.
2. Do a fix on the new cracks, but have not heard of carbon banding and whether it is better or worse than pinning.
You folks have been very kind and helpful, and I feel like I'm able to make a better decision with your counsel.
...........Corey
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Author: Corey
Date: 2010-07-25 23:37
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS.
Here is more information.
My cracking Rossi rosewood Bflat horn is #A176. Perhaps it is an early model as it does not have a liner. (My C rosewood Rossi does) So to answer your questions...the initial cracks were near the octave key tone hole and beyond it, but not through the entire body of the instrument. The recent cracks are just opposite through the Rossi flower trademark and name and an adjacent one toward the A tone hole. Given what has been said I wonder if I should:
1. Go ahead and oil it, as it has no liner.
2. Do a fix on the new cracks, but have not heard of carbon banding and whether it is better or worse than pinning.
You folks have been very kind and helpful, and I feel like I'm able to make a better decision with your counsel.
...........Corey
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-25 23:48
As your Rossi is unlined, you should be fine oiling the bore.
The crack running to the throat A tonehole should terminate there, so that won't be a problem (it shouldn't spread any further south) and should be dealt with either by filling or pinning (and the throat A tonehole may need to be bushed). The only problem I can see with carbon fibre banding is it will show up on a rosewood instrument far more than if it was a blackwood one.
Flush banding (as was popular in the '50s-'80s in the US) with silver or nickel silver rings is obvious and ugly, and if too much pressure has been used to shrink the flush bands, it will constrict the bore in the immediate area of where the bands are.
Yamaha have fairly recently recommended not pinning cracks as they used to, but only filling them with superglue once they're open.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2010-07-26 01:24
Corey, please e-mail me... besides the Israeli Philharmonic, (unless someone else ordered one) I understand that you may be the third, until now unknown, person who owns one of the Rossi C Rosewood clarinets. This information about the core is good to know.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-07-26 11:47
It's unclear why you want to oil the clarinet. There is no real evidence oiling helps against cracking. It does seem like dry wood is more likely to crack but still just not enough real evidence for oiling. You can take the word of people you consider experts but that's the best you can do. If you oil and the crack stops growing, don't assume it is necessary related to that, though it might be.
Pinning can work good but there is more and more evidence by excellent repairers that it is mostly not necessary at all and doesn't improve anything in coparison with just filling with glue. It's an old method from long before excellent super glues were available and traditionally many still do this. Enough repairers have found no difference/improvement vs. filling. But that is assuming the filling is done correctly (e.g. putting wood dust first will completely ruin the repair).
Oiling may have helped prevent the cracks before but there is no way to know. But if you intened to have someone fill the cracks I'd rather not oil it before. It's important that the glue sticks to the sides of the crack and oiling first might make it more difficult to clean thoroughly.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2010-07-26 13:41
Clarinete09 - But is it a rosewood?
And out of interest, how does the clarinet behave in the humidity of Costa Rica? We go there often, and when I take my clarinet there it behaves differently. It's not as free-blowing as it is here in Canada. ¿Hay que manenerlo de manera diferente allá? Is there any more problems with mold growing in the case because of the humidity in the tropical countries?
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2010-09-09 02:51
Regarding bore inserts/linings of Rossi clarinets. I purchased my Bb in 1994. It has serial No. F162. I think the F stands for French Bore. My A clarinet is an "American Bore" -- more like the Buffet R13, according to Luis. The A was purchased at Clarinetfest in Louisiana in 2001, with serial number A 432. Luis Rossi was at the Clarinetfest and I asked him about the lack of a liner in both clarinets. Luis said that for a while he'd been inserting liners, but had stopped doing so by 2001. I conclude from this that he used liners sometime after 1994, but ceased doing so by 2001.
Whether he switched back to using liners at a later date is something I don't know.
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