 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Keith Sanders
Date: 2010-07-09 14:12
Hey Everyone,
I am new to the board and need some opinions on options for bass clarinets. I did search the forum but couldn't find the answer I was looking for. I am a pretty decent clarinetist and bass clarinetist with college playing experience and stuff like that. I am not currently in college right now but will return again in the future(I am at a really good paying job that needed no degree and I have a family, so finishing school will be done at a later date). I will be finishing a Music Ed degree when I go back. I am looking to get a bass clarinet for community band and orchesta playing. Nothing very intense or pro... I have a budget of around $2000 and am looking at either some tried and true used leblanc's, selmer or yamaha...all to low Eb and some student models in there....and on the other end of the spectrum is the Kessler low C bass....I just need some opinions on what you guys and gals think would be a better type of purchase....tried and true Eb or new, cheap low C. I don't have a teacher right now, so I can't ask them and I don't need anyone putting down any particular brand. I just need some of yalls takes on what you might see to be a better purchase...and spending a lot more than my budget is out of the question...without being the next Bliss and with a wife and baby, I can't even begin to justify a 5000 or 6000 dollar instrument, cant even convince myself to think about an instrument that much, no matter how good it plays. So I thank everyone in advance and am sorry my first post was so long-winded.
Thank you,
Keith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2010-07-09 14:24
I bought a tried and true Leblanc bass w/Eb and it is a pretty nice instrument for the under-$1000 I paid on a certain auction site. However, if you will be going back to college, a low C bass would be good to have I would say. How about checking out the Ridenour low C bass? It would be a bit more than your $2,000 budget, but from what I hear would be worth it.
Here is a link:http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/lowcbasspage.html
I am not affiliated with Ridenour, I just like his products.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2010-07-09 14:30
There have been quite a few recent threads on cheap low C basses, and the general view seems to be that you get what you pay for.
For community bands, a low Eb bass works for 95% of the music and 99.9% of the notes, and low brass probably is doubling the few lower notes you will come across. I just play any bottom C or D up an octave and I have not been shot by a director yet.
I do not know if you get more low notes in an orchestras than I see in bands.
If you buy a used brand name wood bass (mine is a ~1980 Selmer), you probably will spend a noticeable amount of additional money getting it in good playable shape. Since money is a concern for you, a new Yamaha student model may be your best bet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-07-09 14:59
A low c instrument is nice to have but I suggest you buy the best bass clarinet you can find for the money. Quality is what you need to look for first and for most. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-07-09 15:51
Merlin has a Kessler Low C Bass and says that he's had success with using it. He'll probably take a stab at the thread if he notices it. You might want to ask Kessler about a trial, and how much it would be to try out some of the clarinets.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2010-07-09 21:50
concertmaster3 wrote:
> Merlin has a Kessler Low C Bass and says that he's had success
> with using it. He'll probably take a stab at the thread if he
> notices it. You might want to ask Kessler about a trial, and
> how much it would be to try out some of the clarinets.
>
Indeed, I am quite satisfied with my Kessler bass. I've posted in a few other threads about the specifics. I recently added a Wolf super endpin bumper to it. It's a wonderful upgrade.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Zenia
Date: 2010-07-09 22:22
Merlin_Williams wrote:
"Wolf super endpin bumper"
At the risk of digression, where can information be found about the above item?
Thanks.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-07-10 03:43
It's an endpin stopper for Cello and Bass. Never thought about using it for Bass clarinet! What does the original endpin on the Kessler look like?
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-07-10 03:46
Why Ed, everyone knows that a Wolf super endpin bumper protects your car from damage when you're practicing your Klose etudes in the car instead of paying attention to traffic and you get rear-ended by the driver behind you when the light changes.....
Is this thread going off-tangent?
To get slightly back on track, my experience with low-C vs. low Eb basses, now that I have two of the former at my disposal, is that I use the extended range pretty rarely and could probably live without it 98% of the time (as I managed to do for 20+ years). Still, if you want to play classical like a pro, nowadays you should have the extra notes. We have the same debate in the sax world about low-A vs. low-Bb baritone saxes, and there's no conclusive answer there either.
I wouldn't waste my money on a Leblanc bass clarinet, they're nicely made but the only guy I know who can get a decent sound out of one is Larry Bocaner. (I include Vitos, Normandys and Noblets when I say "Leblanc", as they're acoustically identical and mechanically nearly so). My Ridenour low-C experience, with one of his first production models, was not good, but perhaps they are better now. The Kessler is probably made in the same Chinese factory as the Ridenour, but if anyone can authoritatively confirm or deny that, they haven't spoken up yet.
When you get right down to it, the real key is getting a top-notch mouthpiece. Get a Fobes or Grabner or Garrett, then start trying horns.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2010-07-10 04:34
The original bumper on the Kessler is a standard rubber tip that goes on the floorpeg.
The Wolf is made as a cello endpin bumper. It's adjustable to the diameter of the most bass clarinet pegs.
I got the idea from Steve Fox. He sells the Wolf, but it's also available from may string dealers.
Google the terms quoted in previous messages and you can easily find dealers selling them; some even have decent pics of it.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-07-10 08:18
Re the Wolf peg, Buffet bass clarinets now come with an improved version of this, without the small screws at the bottom which keep opening (or you could use thread locker if you want). I use this peg and I like it a lot but wouldn't say it's a huge difference between this and a regular rubber tip. One idea someone told me is to glue a kid's super bouncy ball, it is basically the same as the Wolf peg.
About the bass clarinets, re low C vs. low Eb, that is never a real comparison unless for a specific player. For example unlike David, I remember very few concerts where I didn't use at least some of the lower notes, usually all the way down to the C. So whether you want a low C or a low Eb, you have to decide.
For the price you have the Yamaha 221 is a good choice IMO for a new instrument. It's definitely much better than all other student models I've tried like Bundy (aka Selmer USA, aka Conn/Selmer), Vito, Noblet, Jupiter.
No old professional Leblanc I've tried was overall better than a Yamaha 221, though they did have a better tone for some of the range (but also less consistent tone and response). But you can probably get one of these used plus necessary repairs for your price.
Another option is a low Eb pro model Selmer Paris or Buffet. These are sometimes avaialble for your price, but definitely need to check condition and how much repair is needed. I like these better than Yamaha 221 for tone and response though they can sometimes have a few iffy notes. The mechanics are not nearly as good as the new models but they sound very good. If I was you, this would probably be my first choice if I found something like this, followed the the Yamaha 221 as second best option.
Re the Chinese low C models, I've tried several sold by different Chinese companies. Some of those claimed to make it themselves. Although the instruments were all nearly identical, it's possible they are made by more than one factory (hard to say for sure). It's a pretty safe guess that these are the ones made for Kessler, Ridenour and the many others who sell them. I found the same consistent problems with all of the ones I've tried so overall I didn't like them. Mostly mechanical and ergonomic problems but also with tone, response, etc.
If you buy an instrument like this best if you can try first or at least return it. I would be careful of a recommendation from someone who even admits they haven't tried the instrument they are recommending. In fact it's tricker than that. I have one instrument with many problems and IMO serious flaws, yet almost none of them was mentioned in many reviews on this forum. So really you should try before buying, actually for any instrumnt you buy.
Good luck.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-07-10 19:41
Thanks David, I needed that. Though I never practice my Klose studies in my car I do practice my Lazarus and Rose studies when driving. By the way, the Selmer C* is a quality bass mouthpiece too, especially when voiced my Dave McClune. Just so everyone knows, I use a rubber stopper on the bottom of my peg that I bought at a hardware store of just a few bucks, works great. ESP
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassman
Date: 2010-07-13 06:25
I recently started playing the bass clarinet again after a whole lot of years. I did a great deal of research on instruments and accesories, and after all was said and done, I ended up getting a Yamaha 221II, a Clark W. Fobes Basso Nova mouthpiece, and a Rovner dark bass clarinet ligature. The Yamaha comes with the standard 4C mouthpiece, which is rated number 1 for students, and was great for me to get reacquainted with the instrument. I joined my local community band, and after a short while, I was once again comfortable with the instrument (kind of like riding a bicycle). Everyone in the band just loves my bass. The main body is in two pieces, which makes it really nice because you have a much smaller case to deal with. The case is decent and although the clarinet is plastic, it has a wood look to it and the sound is good. It's right in your price range. You can get everything that I mentioned, along with some reeds for your money. I am very pleased with the instrument, but I will confess that I have no experience with any of the others. The last bass clarinet that I played was in high school and the instrument was older and belonged to the school. Compared to that one, the Yamaha 221II is great! Good luck and hope this helped a little.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2010-07-13 12:26
I play a Yamaha 221 II in my community band, and am very pleased with it. With a Pomarico crystal #2 mouthpiece, this plastic bass clarinet sounds great in all registers.
The horn originally came with a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece which I use as a backup in case the Pomarico breaks. I found it easy to play, but a custom mouthpiece will do wonders for this clarinet.
Outside in the summer, plastic is the way to go so I use Légère reeds;
but I prefer cane reeds for playing in a controlled environment.
I think for the money, you can't go wrong with Yamaha.
Mike Blinn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2010-07-13 12:54
Those Yamahas are great horns. They play surprisingly well. If I were in the market for a bass I would also consider used Selmers. They are quite nice and can often be around at a good price.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LCL
Date: 2010-07-13 14:55
In 1997, some believe that I wasted money on a Leblanc bass clarinet - a professional top-of-the-line Model 430S Low C horn. In 1998, again some believe that I wasted money in having resonators installed as on the current Selmer BCs. I even threw another bundle away on having Morrie Backun do some extensive tweaking in 2008 and gold plating the neck. And now I am currently going to throw another bunch away on having a Backun bell installed as well as a bit more done to the horn. I'm just kidding about the money!
Did I think orginally in 1997 that the horn was a good one? Yes, but at each of the above mentioned stages, it got better! I have had Fobes and Grabner mpcs. too and all were excellent. I now use a Pamarico Jazz ** crystal mpc.
Some would say that I wasted money, but the multitude of complements I've received from community bandmates and several band directors about the sound coming from this wasteland of mine indicates to me that I have not! Could I have achieved the same results from a professional Buffet or Selmer LowC? I guess I'll never know! But I would not say that all Leblanc BCs are inferior and that only one person in the world can make one sound good!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-07-13 15:05
FYI, a local player brought me a Yamaha YCL221 bass clarinet to tweak, the main problem was that it played very high in pitch, seemed to be tuned closer to A-445 than A-440. I ended up grafting a 3/8" extension onto her mouthpiece tenon to get the thing down to US standard pitch. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-07-13 15:18
I'm borrowing my school's Yamaha Bass and I have to pull the neck out farther than I like it (It seems to squeak more when it's pulled out than when I play it pushed in when I was practicing it). It is in tune with itself, but just sharp overall. That's my only real gripe with this horn. I also find it harder to play in the upper register with it pulled out, but that could be just me.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-07-13 15:40
A cellist friend who had to play on a concrete floor took a slat of plywood 6" wide and 4' long, cut an opening for the chair leg at the back and drilled 1" holes every 6" at the other end into which to put the end pin.
There is also a cello end pin holder for use on hard wood floors, or those where the home owner doesn't want holes dug into them. It's a disk about 6" in diameter and 1" thick with a sticky rubber layer on the bottom and a metal cup on top to hold the end pin. I think this is not as good for bass clarinet as it is for cello, since the BC is frequently lifted and you have to find the holder again the next time you play.
For my BC and Eb contra, I got two Super Balls, drilled holes in them it and pushed them over the ends of the floor pins. The Super Ball has tremendous grip on the floor and works very well, but don't let the instrument bounce on it.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-07-13 19:31
Hi,
I have a Reynolds Emperor (Vito) plastic bass clarinet and I use a Portnoy MP. I've had the instrument tweaked a few time, added a better floor peg, and gotten a Protec case. I've got maybe $600 in the entire set.
My stand mate last year got a new Yamaha 221II and I was anxious to try it. My Vito-stencil held its own in intonation and upper register response. The 221II had a really neat low end but as DS said, some notes were very sharp.
Do I think I should have spent an extra thousand for a 221II? Those of you that know me can easily come up with the answer.
HRL
PS The answer is I'm a value guy (who plays lot of show and concert gigs on my tenor with Rico Royal B5 and M5 mps - total investment $30). To spend a lot more money for only an incremental gain is not something I would ever do.
Post Edited (2010-07-14 10:29)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-07-13 22:43
Careful, Dr. Hank! There are some people on this BB who cheerfully spend more for a wooden bass clarinet BELL than you spent for your entire setup, including instrument. There are some folks who will spent nearly any amount of money for an incremental improvement.
Unlike them I, like you, am proud to be known as a Value Guy.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-07-14 02:33
DS,
Can all levels of musicians recognize subtle differences that result from a special BC bell? I can not tolerate an instrument that has intonation problems but know that either one of my TR 147s plays just about as well in tune as one of my #1 clarinets (Yamaha CS Custom or LeBlanc L200).
So, to spend a lot of money on a new bass clarinet when I can do about 95%+ of everything I need to do on the Emperor seems a bit odd. Granted the symphony BC players must have the very, very best. But for us poor, simple journeymen, spending more is not always a viable option.
HRL
PS And I still have some Advent speaker around (coupled with subs though) working hard every day.
Post Edited (2010-07-14 10:27)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-07-15 15:50
David Spiegelthal wrote,
>>FYI, a local player brought me a Yamaha YCL221 bass clarinet to tweak, the main problem was that it played very high in pitch, seemed to be tuned closer to A-445 than A-440. I ended up grafting a 3/8" extension onto her mouthpiece tenon to get the thing down to US standard pitch. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon?
>>
I tried a Yamaha bass (without extended range) a few weeks ago that had extremely wide twelfths. Below the break it was slightly sharp, not enough to be a problem, except for the throat tones, which were flat unless I lipped them up pretty hard. Above the break this clarinet went grossly sharp. I didn't use an electronic tuner on it; I just plunked the keys on my Yamaha Clavinova electronic piano for comparison. The twelfths were too wide for me consider buying this bass, but I think I might not have bought it anyway because I'm really looking for a low-C bass.
Caveats: I'm an experienced amateur on E-flat alto and E-flat contra-alto clarinets, but I have no experience on B-flat bass. This bass came with only the original Yamaha mouthpiece. I had no other bass mouthpiece for comparison. There was nothing obviously wrong with this clarinet, though some superficial-looking scrapes and gouges on and near the bell indicated a few whoopsies over the years.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassman
Date: 2010-07-16 08:05
I must admit, the Yamaha 221II is sharp when tuning. I pull my kneck out about half way in order to get it in tune. This is the only thing negative that I have to say about the horn. When doing some research, this was the only thing that I heard that was somewhat negative. I have a Clark Fobes Basso Nova mouthpiece and Rovner Dark Bass Clarinet Ligature on order and I'm hoping that these may help some. I'll let you know. Overall, I'm very pleased with my Yamaha.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DWaugh
Date: 2010-07-17 03:51
I purchased a damaged (broken low D lever and several bent keys) Barrington low C bass a few weeks ago from WWBW. It plays now, but still needs some tweaks (1 pad has a slight leak and the low D lever needs some work). The low C is a tad flat, but manageable. Otherwise, the scale is very good on it.
I am happy with my purchase, but probably would have gone with the Kessler if not for the great deal due to damage on mine.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-07-17 05:58
I'll second DWaugh's purchase. I played it last week, and other than the Low C being flat and a leak, it's a good horn. If the new price wasn't so close to a Kessler, I'd consider it.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2010-07-17 13:36
I have a new student who came to me playing a brand new Yamaha Low-C bass clarinet, school owned. When I checked the intonation and found it consistently 20+ cents sharp, I accused the kid of playing with a way-to-tight embouchure. (He was using the supplied Yamaha mouthpiece.) When I played the instrument with my Garret/Zinner I found the intonation to be pretty good, pulled out only about 1/8 inch. Lending the young man a Garrett/Babbitt "MO" facing, he is now playing the instrument nicely in tune, and I am no longer berating him for "pinching."
It seems to me that Yamaha has learned from Buffet to supply crappy mouthpieces with their pro-grade horns!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-07-17 14:13
LarryBocaner wrote:
> It seems to me that Yamaha has learned from Buffet to supply
> crappy mouthpieces with their pro-grade horns!
I'd prefer a Yamaha beak over a Buffet doorstop any time...speaking of the former - has anyone tried to reface a Yamaha mouthpiece? Just curious, because I think they have some potential...
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2010-07-17 14:18
If the supplied mouthpiece is playing egregiously sharp with a top-of-the-line instrument by the same major manufacturer, I doubt if any amount of refacing will fix this! With all due respect----
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-07-17 14:20
Larry, I didn't mean to say that refacing will "fix this", other than maybe encourage the player to employ a somewhat different embouchure. Sorry if I was unclear; it was more of a generic question.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-07-19 00:55
Larry, when I was trying out my customer's Yamaha 221, I used a couple of my own mouthpieces as well as hers. None was the original Yamaha mouthpiece; and one of mine was a crystal Pomarico which tends to be a bit low on pitch. With all of these mouthpieces, we had to pull the neck way out to get down to A-440, so I can't blame the stock mouthpiece in her case.
Also, I have two refaced Yamaha mouthpieces (a 4C and a 6C) and both are about middle-of-the-road for pitch on my own bass clarinets.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
