 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jonny M
Date: 2010-07-01 17:39
How tricky is the C an octave below Middle C on a Bb Clarinet? I know it's in the range, but I've heard the very low notes are difficult to play.
Originally the phrase was for a bassoon, but for this particular piece, the character and tone produced by the clarinet in this register is much more appropriate. I don't want to re-pitch it, as it sounds really nice and full of character, but at the same I don't want to make an enemy of the clarinettist!
Also, most of the phrases hang around the ledger lines below the treble clef (2nd, even third). As a player, would you prefer to see an 8vb on treble clef, a bass clef, or just lots of ledger lines?
(Am trying to break the mould by actually being a composer who considers the musicians and what they prefer to see on paper when playing!)
Heaven and Mirth (HaM) Music.
www.HaM-Music.com
info@HaM-Muaic.com
07746260092
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2010-07-01 18:29
Hello Jonny M,
I think it's nice that you're considering musicians' preferences.
In your questions above, are you asking about the Bb clarinet or the Bass Clarinet?
The Bb clarinet range is down to written Low E, not Low C.
The Bass Clarinet has a range down to written Low C.
As for me, I prefer to read the notation for the lowest notes for Bass Clarinet in Treble clef with ledger line - or in Bass clef - not 8vb.
For Bb clarinet, never do I want to see 8vb or bass clef.
Tom Piercy
Post Edited (2010-07-01 19:21)
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-07-01 18:29
If you are really trying to break the mold and consider the musicians, buy an orchestration book (Rimsky-Korsakov is a classic, but an orchestration book, really) and study it. These are really elementary questions you're asking; questions that if you're serious about composition you need to know this stuff like it's the back of your hand. Intensively studying the chapter on clarinet in an orchestration book will give you the answers you are looking for.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-07-01 19:07
I think, vin, with a condescending reply such as yours, you are more likely to dissuade Jonny M from any further attempts to collaborate with the players, than to encourage him to pursue his goal.
I don't know what Rimsky wrote about orchestration, nor do I really care, but I can tell you that I've seen and had to play all sorts of variations on range, clef and notation in bass clarinet parts --- so it must not be so clear-cut, or else all these (reputable) composers and publishers would have agreed on ONE system long ago.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-01 19:54
My full Boehm A clarinet will play a concert C as its lowest note. But the chances of finding many people who own a full Boehm A clarinet is pretty slim.
Your common-or-garden Bb will only descend to mid-line bass clef concert D.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-07-01 20:06
The lowest (written) note for the standard clarinet is E below middle C. On the Bb clarinet, this sounds a D. Some clarinets have an extra key to play a half step lower, but few people have this. You should assume that the clarinet plays only down to written E.
You have been misinformed about the low register. The clarinet's low notes come out very easily.
Clarinetists are used to reading ledger lines below the treble clef, down to E and would be confused and uncomfortable if you wrote with an 8va or in bass clef.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-01 21:11
All beginners on clarinet will start playing the lower register first as this is the easiest register to sound. Likewise with all other woodwinds.
The only times you may see bass clef writing for clarinet is forn the lowest notes on the basset clarinet (usually from low G down to low C and that's written from the bottom line G downwards), the basset horn and also for German bass clarinet writing where it'll also go into treble clef for the higher stuff but played an 8ve higher than written (though not all German/Austrian composers use bass clef for bass clarinet, similarly not all French composers use treble clef for bass clarinet).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-07-01 21:11
I agree with Ken, but would add that you may want to indicate an alternate 8va for those bass clarinetists who don't have a low-C instrument. Many bass clarinets only go to the concert D an octave below the lowest note of the Bb soprano instrument.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-07-01 21:35
Jonny M said: " (Am trying to break the mould by actually being a composer who considers the musicians and what they prefer to see on paper when playing!)"
WOW! Can we clone you?! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Justme
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Author: Jonny M
Date: 2010-07-01 23:57
Thanks guys for all your input. In response, firstly, a small section dedicated to the very helpful Vin, who I will try to be relatively polite to:
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Thank you for your advice Vin, but I actually preferred Alfred Blatter's 'Instrumentation and Orchestration' to Rimsky-Korsakov's 'Principles of Orchestration'. In fact, I also preferred it to Berlioz's 'Treatise on Instrumentation'. I think you catch my drift.
I wasn't asking how to write music, I was asking musicians a question on the matter of VISUAL PREFERENCE and COMFORT, not simply taking the instrument's own abilities/limitations and thinking, "it's possible on the instrument, so who cares about what it does to the player" and "it looks neater on an 8vb or bass clef, so I'll do that". And I've seen diagrams that actually use 8va or 8vb, bass clefs and treble clefs with 3 ledger lines.
While an instrument may be capable of reaching particular notes or registers (in this case of this one, Vin, the chalumeau register, in case my talk of ledger lines came across as too elementary for you), doesn't mean it's universally 'easy' to do it. Many instruments have a range that is not always 'a given' that everyone can do it, hence it sometimes being referred as the 'professional range'. But then you've also read all these books and know this, so I'm preaching to the converted.
Finally, Vin, I'm not a clarinet player. In fact, it may surprise you to know that generally, composers don't tend to be able to play most of the orchestral instruments they write for. If they did, there wouldn't be any time left in the day to actually compose once practise was over. So we do our thing, and let the players do theirs. So I always make it a priority to listen to feedback and views/general consensus of the players themselves in terms of how challenging a part is, if they have any recommendations or if they'd do anything differently. Music is collaborative, not dictatorial. For me anyway. I certainly don't do what you suggest and simply rely only on the shelf of books I have that show me a nice diagram of notes it can physically reach, tell me how the instrument is made, what colour it is and how pretty the shiny pads look. Those that do often find themselves standing in front of an orchestra at rehearsal, slightly embarrassed that despite their academia, they have to rewrite half their score. So I ask musicians "technically the instrument can do.... but what do you find in practise...." etc.
Anyway, back to the remaining people who actually DID see my question for what it was, which was to make sure what I did was most helpful to someone as a player....
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Sorry, I did mean Bb Bass Clarinet. I shouldn't really blame my tools, but I let myself get carried away on Sibelius and didn't twig that I was meant to have changed the instrument, even though it still allowed me to write on the 4th ledger line (transposed) on a normal Bb clarinet. Normally it flags that up... Schoolboy error...
Thought I would check as I know the clarinet can start to sound very 'fuzzy' with some people playing that low, so wasn't sure if it was a real push asking an amateur player to do it (which they will be as it's an amateur musical production). Especially as it's quite an important part that underpins the wind section at this point.
I may end up pitching it up a bit now anyway, as I've been told in the last hour we definitely have 2 Reeds that can play/double clarinet, but they may not own a bass one. In which case, I'm out of range anyway. I'm sill going to pretend it's Sibelius' fault though. Maybe I'll just hire a Bb bass one for them to use.
Thanks again!
Heaven and Mirth (HaM) Music.
www.HaM-Music.com
info@HaM-Muaic.com
07746260092
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-07-02 00:04
Jonny M,
One last thing about bass clarinets and range: most bass clarinets only descend to the written low Eb. Some bass clarinets do go to low C, and many of us pros have one, but it is not guaranteed that an ensemble you may compose for will have one necessarily.
The better the ensemble, the better the chance a low C bass is available. Not axiomatic, but somewhat true.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Jonny M
Date: 2010-07-02 00:23
I never thought losing the Bassoon would cause me such a headache :o).
Heaven and Mirth (HaM) Music.
www.HaM-Music.com
info@HaM-Muaic.com
07746260092
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-07-02 00:54
I pointed you to some basic orchestration book because your question asked "How tricky is the C an octave below Middle C on a Bb Clarinet? I know it's in the range." As you know, there's no such note. How are we to assume you know basic orchestration when you ask such a question? No where in your first post did you give any indication that you actually knew the range of a clarinet, hence my advice. You obviously don't need it, so there's really no need to get so offended or think I'm being "dictatorial."
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-07-02 02:33
Unlike some instruments, the low range on clarinet and bass clarinet is solid and easy to play, aside some occasional tricky bits if you noodle around chromatically. It's very much a case of "this is the lowest note available. You can have us play as many of them as you like. There are no lower notes, though."
Please, treble clef only.
As an aside, do you work with performers much? There's only so much that can be explained in text, but spending a little while in a "show me what your instrument does" session with a performer can be enormously helpful, and most performers will be very accommodating, especially if they're the ones you're writing for.
Considering what musicians like to see isn't at all breaking the mold. I'd say about half the composers I've known, met, or come across do, and about half don't.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-07-02 05:23
As a beginner on the bass clarinet (with a background in the soprano Bb), I found that it was difficult to get the lowest notes to speak correctly when played them detached and accented, but that was a voicing/embouchure problem. You might keep that in mind if the players available are new to the bass clarinet. Playing legato low notes shouldn't be a problem even for a newbie.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-07-02 05:43
Check that the player has a bass clarinet that goes down to low C. This is in the range but isn't clear from your post if the actual player would have it. Assuming a decent player, it wouldn't be a problem playing this or any other low notes. As far as how to write it, best to ask the specific player who is going to play your music. I prefer treble clef but I've also seen a piece composed by a bass clarinetist for a bass clarinet trio (where the composer is also one of the players) and most of it was in bass clef because the players preferred this.
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Author: Plonk
Date: 2010-07-02 07:02
I'm confused - your question was:
How tricky is the C an octave below Middle C on a Bb Clarinet?
So if you meant the bass clarinet, then this note is not at the lowest end of the range at all. Do you mean the C 2 octaves below middle C?
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