 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mikeyarbulu
Date: 2010-06-01 19:16
I wanted to pick up saxophone and start doubling on it, but I was concerned that I would develop voicing issues and embouchure fatigue/confusion. Has anyone else experienced problems like this? Is there any reed/mouthpiece set up to help avoid these issues? Any insight would be wonderful! Thanks!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-06-01 19:42
Do it. Forget any negative rumors you may have heard about doubling. With a bit of research you'll find that some of the top classical clarinetists were/are also excellent saxophonists -- the instruments are not mutually exclusive --- quite the opposite! As with languages, or sports, "cross-training" has many positive benefits; learning a second (or third or fourth) instrument, language, or sport usually improves one's mastery and understanding of the primary skill set.
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Author: TianL
Date: 2010-06-01 20:27
if you do a search on the bboard about this topic you will see it's a pretty controversial topic. With my personal experience I would have to disagree with David. My own experience is that once I picked up alto sax it had a number of negative effects on my embouchure, clarinet angle, tongue position, etc.
it bothered me until a long time after, that i figured out exactly what the differences are between clarinet and sax embouchure.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2010-06-01 20:49
I think the greatest effect would be the amount of time you have available to practice clarinet. If you quit/reduce your clarinet practice, expect to see some drop-off in your skill level. Go figure . . .
On the other hand, it's important to assess what your goals in music are. There are many instances where a clarinet-only player would have no opportunity to play a job, but a doubler would. And actually, it gets worse . . . much worse. Which sax? Tenor, alto, and soprano make a nice three-course meal, unless of course you like to rattle the timbers and go for bari as well. And then there's flute . . . and maybe oboe . . . and (well, you can see where this is going!)
So what are your musical goals? If you've got the skills to compete in the clarinet-only world, you are indeed an exceptional player. Nurture the talent you have and make us proud. Other mere mortals often find that doubling adds to their bredth of experience, their musical diversity, their resume', and their job offers.
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Author: Adam W
Date: 2010-06-01 20:57
While there are a multitude of things to be said on this issue, I think you'll be fine as long as you
1) Realize that while the clarinet and saxophone have many similarities, it's best if you don't focus on that. Treat the saxophone as a completely different instrument (novel concept, I know...).
2) There is soooo much more back pressure when you play the clarinet, so never go too long without playing it, or it will seem like a struggle when you switch back from saxophone.
Just my two cents.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-06-01 21:14
Play it and don't worry about it. Yes, they are different animals, But so is bass or Eb. Have fun.
Post Edited (2010-06-02 01:31)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-06-01 21:26
LOL. Wow, I'm so glad I read this because this evening I start rehearsals for a run of Victor/Victoria and Reed V (clarinet, bass clarinet, bari sax, and bassoon). Sometimes, I have just a few measures to change instruments.
My biggest problem is sometimes while transposing the bassoon part "on the fly" I forget momentarily if I am reading treble clef and just changing the key signature or reading bass clef and up one step. Old age I guess.
My embouchure is pretty much used to the switches after all these years because I do what my old pal Dave S. suggests, practice the doubles. Yeah, it really is cross-training.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-06-01 21:31
I can't say picking up the sax had a negative effect on my clarinet playing. I'm as bad as I was BEFORE I took up sax! ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Jeff
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-06-02 08:45
I went from a clarinet to a sax and while I experienced no embouchure problems either way I have to admit that my brain will got confused on some passages some days and play clarinet notes for sax and visa versa. It has taken 3 yrs. to overcome (well nearly) this.
I would think If you are still in the early stages of your first instrument to double to another must slow down your progress substantially.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-06-02 11:59
I'm in the no negative effects camp.
Any negative effects come from not practising.
You may need to practice the change over itself until that too is mastered.
my most musical fun has been playing in shows, with 5 instruments around me, and making perhaps 60 changes during a performance, especially when some of those changes are in 2 or 3 seconds.
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Author: RAB
Date: 2010-06-02 13:26
My teacher, Mr. Frank Chase, a wonderful player and teacher from NY many years ago had me put the sax on a stand and play the clarinet. Once I was warmed up and sounding good. I put the clarinet on the stand and started playing sax. He had me continue the piece of music until I had the correct sound and control. Then I went back to the clarinet. He had me do this until I could switch quickly and get the appropriate sound and control of the instrument. He said it was like flipping a switch and when I had the clarinet I was a clarinet player. When I had the sax I was a sax player, Just flip the switch.
This took a considerable amount of time to do this to his standards. It works but it takes time.
Hope this helps!!
Rodney Berry
Repair Dept
Muncy Winds Music Company
Boone, N.C.
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-06-02 13:56
Negative effects?
All of the money that you're going to have to spend for the various saxes and sax equipment..
Justme
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-06-02 14:12
"Negative effects?
All of the money that you're going to have to spend for the various saxes and sax equipment.."
More than counterbalanced by the substantial increase in PAID gigs you'll get from being proficient on sax. Probably a lot more money than you'll ever make playing clarinet (if that matters to you). Such has been my experience over the past 35 years, anyway.
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2010-06-02 14:56
The most noticeable negative effects of saxophone are felt by people sitting near saxophones - especially too-loud tenor saxophones.
Several people have already commented on the potential positive economic effect of playing both instruments. For me, the benefit of playing either instrument is variety.
I have played in community bands for the past 30 years, and I am amazed how many people have played the same instrument, and often the same part, for most of that time. If you occasionally change instruments in a group, you get a new perspective on each piece you play, no matter how many times the piece has been played. Changing instruments also causes you to physically move around the band, which is additional variety.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-06-02 14:59
If you're planning on becoming a clarinet performance major and you're planning on marching with a saxophone in a marching band that requires many hours of practice time, I might not do it. I marched with a tenor sax in college (high stepping, and our band didn't march clarinets), and it slightly affected my clarinet playing. It wasn't a major issue, but my playing always improved a bit when marching season was over. To be honest, though, I'm not sure the situation would have been much different if I had marched with a clarinet.
If this doesn't describe you, go for it! I've played both instruments for many years, although I must admit that I don't play a lot of sax these days. Still, I don't think the sax has hurt my clarinet playing one bit. It really isn't a big deal switching back and forth. The worst problem I face is a dry reed.
Several months ago, I wrote about Jack Brymer. Even though we remember him today for his clarinet playing, he was also an amazing sax player. At the time, others mentioned Larry Combs, another remarkable performer on both instruments.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-06-02 15:14
I played tenor and bari while in high school with the intent of being a doubler, also learned the oboe and flute. Non ever had any adverse effect on my clarinet playing. Then I sold my sax and flute to buy a bass and Eb clarinet and gave up on wanting to be a doubler and concentrate on orchestra playing. I've known many terrific clarinetists that played sax, it's not a problem for the vast majority of players. I think you should be encouraged to learn as many forms of music as you can, and that includes playing sax, because it's near impossible to get a job in an orchestra today so you should branch out as much as possible. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-06-02 15:24
As an amateur, I started doubling on sax in the late 1990s and think that the extra attention to how the instruments work has, if anything, improved my clarinet playing. (There's still plenty of room for more improvement....) The one thing I do have to watch out for is loss of lip if I don't play soprano clarinet for several days at a time. The embouchure for clarinet is tighter, as others here have mentioned. I get a lazy lip in a hurry if I don't practice clarinet. But the instruments feel and sound so different from each other that I've never had a problem with mixing them up and absent-mindedly using the wrong fingerings, for instance.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-06-03 04:56
Mikeyarbulu:-,
I didn't mean to discourage you.
I see many posts on here expounding on the virtues of saxophone and encouraging you.
Your post was titled: "NEGATIVE effects of saxophone?"
That is why I posted about the cost of such instruments were you to really "gain an interest" and start buying for example the new top models of Sop, alto, tenor, baritone and all of the various mouthpieces and the equipment that goes with them. You can get into some big money.
Since you asked only about the downside, this is what I posted.
If you are planning to make money or just playing for fun and don't plan to try to get gigs and so on, I would also still say: "Go for it" if you have the funds. You don't have to get the best right away ( unless you can afford it) if you chose not to.
You'll have a great variety of playing styles, genres, as well as sounds to explore and whole new worlds can open up...
Take Care
Justme
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-06-03 09:23
Oh, a negative effect... The difficulties for, and disdain from, the fellow players who have to put up with you playing so sharp at the upper end of your second octave and 3rd octave.
That is, until you appreciate that the embouchure remains really sloppy up there, compared with what the clarinet needs.
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Author: plclemo
Date: 2010-06-03 10:31
I play ALL of the reeded woodwinds normally found in a high school/college band or orchestra. You learn to adjust your embrouchure for each instrument. It just comes naturally. DO IT! AND HAVE FUN!!!!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-06-03 11:56
GeorgeL,
You've really got it there.
I've played clarinet, alto and tenor sax, as well as bass clarinet regularly in three of the community bands that I have played with over the years. You do move around the band and get to meet a lot of really great people that you would not know very well if you "played the same instrument, and often the same part, for most of that time."
One funny story was last summer I was working with one band and a couple of pieces had very exposed alto sax solos. No one could really hack it so the director moved me from 1st clarinet over to alto. All went well for the concert but the biggest hoot was that several of the older females in the section "voted that I should stay with the saxes." They were too funny.
On the different instruments I have played in community bands and the "fun/work" factor. This might be helpful to potential future doublers.
1. Clarinet: lots of great parts but the 2nd clarinet is really tough as you are around the break all the time with some really difficult passages (ala Ron Nelson compositions). There are usually some really bad players in this section (intonation problems, poor technique, and bad work ethic). Sometimes it is really frustrating.
2. Alto sax: my favorite of all but too many in the section really screws things up. For some reason, many players forget to tune!!!!!
3. Tenor: a real snoozer but it's great to sit by the baritones and trombones; they know how to have fun.
4. Bass clarinet: a wonderful instrument with some interesting parts. Modern band compositions are best.
5. Bassoon: talk about using a lot of fingers with awkward changes; OK parts.
Playing bari sax is great if you have an instrument that is in top working condition.
HRL
PS Gordon, the Reed III book for Chicago has 5 instruments and some really hard changes. I know your pain.
Post Edited (2010-06-05 03:42)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-03 13:26
All doubling is good for you.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2010-06-03 19:12
I can think of two experiences playing saxophone which resulted in an ACTUAL negative playing effect on my clarinet. The first occurred when I was in Grad school at FSU; I played the Bari Book on the Barnum and Bailey/Ringling Bros Circus one weekend, something like 10 shows over 3 days (like doing push-ups with your chops). I literally had a bruise in the shape of the bari reed on my lower lip and had to reschedule a Monday morning clarinet lesson (which Professor Ormand was NOT happy about.)
The other incident was a summer between semesters in college when I picked up a gig with a jazz quintet playing alto and flute six nights a week for 5 hours per night. Great fun (it was at the beach), but I completely let my clarinet practice routine slide, and, on returning to school in September, I was pretty much blown out of the water by my much better prepared colleagues in our auditions.
The lesson here is that, as a professional doubler, which I have now been for many years, you must be prepared on ALL instruments that you are being payed to play at a high or artistic level: this involves major time expenditure and a focused effort to approach each instrument on its own terms, but the rewards, both financial and artistic, can be great.
In terms of professional disadvantages, I have definitely picked up on anti-doubler bias in certain circles, to the degree of having lost gigs because of it, and to the point where I have considered different business cards listing my various doubles separately, ie, one for classical playing, another for theatre work, another for jazz, etc.
This second issue is not universal, but is real at a certain level, and should be considered by any serious performer hoping to actually obtain professional work.
AB
Post Edited (2010-06-03 19:56)
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2010-06-03 20:25
My negative experiences in this regard have pretty much all been on classical jobs; some people clearly believe one can't possibly possess a professional level of competence beyond one basic instrument and style of music, although I occasionally have run into some "reverse snobbery" on jazz gigs.
I would never compare myself to these virtuosos, but Eddie Daniels and Wynton Marsalis certainly put the lie to this particular myth.
I cherish the ability to play multiple instruments and styles at a very high level, though I must say that I will always consider clarinet to be my first love and primary "voice."
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Author: Fred
Date: 2010-06-04 21:27
One word of important advice (not asked for, so there's no charge . . . ) is this: Despite certain similarities in fingering, mouthpieces, reeds, etc, the saxophone is not a misshapen clarinet. Don't try to play a sax like it was a clarinet - especially tempting if you're playing soprano sax! Learn the sax by sax rules - don't assume that you can follow clarinet rules (embouchure, vibrato, etc) and everything will be OK.
PS - It really is fun . . .
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Author: William
Date: 2010-06-05 15:38
The only "negative" effect I have ever noted regarding playing the sax--and I play them all--is that they can be SO MUCH FUN that you will ignore your serious clarinet practice for long periods of time. It's most important to keep the instrument that "got you there" while you secretly cheat to have a fling with your sax. Practice the clarinet first, then the sax, then the doubles. I was fortunate to have a gig with a jazz combo where my stand had my clarinet, soprano, alto & tenor saxes and flute set up at all times and I would switch for each tune and sometimes, during, just for variety. And now, my orchestra collegue is amazed that I can easily switch from effer to bass to soprano with ease. My fingers and embouchure adjust automatically after all those years "practicing" my doubles on sax & even flute.
If there is another negative, it might be the new mouthpiece searches you will experiance with each sax looking for that "perfect" sound--just like your old friend the clarinet. Nevertheless, SAX CAN BE THE MOST FUN--enjoy.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-05 21:03
Good one Fred - there are far too many people that are primarily clarinet players that treat soprano saxes like they're a clarinet. In simple terms, it isn't a clarinet - it's a saxophone, so it should be played and treated like one.
This caused a lot of arguements when I lent my soprano sax to someone who played it like it was a clarinet and complained about how sharp it goes up top. It's a Yamaha 62 soprano, so perhaps one of the most stable ones ever built for intonation when played by someone that knows what they're doing, but in the wrong hands it is a disaster. He told me I should reduce the venting in the LH main action and palm keys to bring the pitch down in the upper register (which won't do much apart from make it stuffy in the lower register), I told him to learn to play it properly - it plays fine for me and I'm primarily a bari sax player. Has to be said I didn't lend it to him for too long.
As for mouthpieces, if you like more 'classical' or concert band playing, a Selmer C** is a good starting point. But if you're leaning more towards Jazz, then a Meyer 6 for alto and a Link 6 for tenor. Choice of reeds is up to you, but don't play on too resistant a set-up or you'll be barking the low notes out and will have trouble getting them to speak cleanly and quietly when you need to, as well as having not much control when playing quietly in the lower register when playing with a full tone as opposed to wooly subtoning.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-06-05 22:50
Hi Chris,
I use a C* on both bari and soprano both legit and jazz; mine go way back to the HR Soloist from the 50s though. Meyer 7M works well for me on alto. On tenor, a cheap Rico Royal M5 or B5 (about $15 each) is still the best but I've had good luck with the Dukoff metal D7 for jazz.
HRL
.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-05 23:18
I used to use a Dukoff D7 on alto, but had a bad evening with it and switched to a Lawton 7*BB and never looked back. Soon followed by a 7*BB on bari and 7*B on tenor and soprano.
As for soprano mouthpieces, I too find a reasonably closer tip is best than what I use on alto, tenor and bari - I use 7* on those but switched to a Lawton 6*B ebonite on soprano as that was much easier to control and not so tiring on the chops. On alto and tenor I will use a metal 6*BB for orchestral/concert band playing and a plain 7 ebonite on bari. I did try Selmer C** and D but found them to be very restrictive for me - they didn't offer the degree of flexibility I like with the Lawtons.
And a Selmer C* on soprano will play just as loud (or louder still) than trumpets, so challenging or even beating them at their own game!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-06-05 23:49
Since the discussion has sequed to mouthpieces, here's my 2 cents worth:
Soprano--a custom mpc by Emile Anello of Milwaukee; lig-Winslow
Alto--"Hollywood" model Gregory rubber; lig-Winslow
Tenor--Guardala "Studio" metal; lig-Winslow
Bari--Rousseu "Jazz" hard rubber; lig--Harrison (fooled y'all, huh?)
I seldom play soprano or bari anymore, however a lot of alto and tenor with our Retro Swing Band. For both of those, I am now using Forestone F2's on the above mentioned mpcies and can play the entire range from low Bb up to some tasteful D8's (I love messing with those hotdog trumpets). I can always be heard during a solo and have no trouble blending with the ensemble stuff. I'll never play Legere or cane again, ever.
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Author: mikeyarbulu
Date: 2010-06-06 20:36
Everyone has been so helpful and given me a lot to consider! Thanks so much!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-06 21:22
Later on, you can always add flute to your list of instruments.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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