 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AllesonWonderland
Date: 2010-05-23 03:53
My daughter will be starting in band this fall. The school lists these as 'approved' clarinets:
Leblanc Bliss 210
Yamaha YCL-450
Buffet E-11
Any opinions on which of those would be best? Also, I've found a Yamaha YCL-52 that appears to be a good deal...store demo, not really used. I know the YCL-450 is the newer model, but I can't really find what was changed.
Thanks in advance--clarinets are definitely not my forte.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-05-23 05:01
Is the E11 made in Germany or is it the new E11 France? Just now I have a German E11 that was bought new about a year ago and the build quality is extremely disapointing. I would recommend the plastic student Yamaha model in preferance to this one. I don't remember E11s from years ago being so bad. I used to like this model but after seeing this and a few others, I'm not going to recommend this anymore. I play tested the E11 France and thought it was good but I haven't played it enough to come to any real conclusions yet. The glued posts seems to be a silly idea though. I also thought the throat A key was too far from the first ring (but when I tried a year later I didn't think it was a problem, maybe they changed it, or I changed my mind).
The YCL-450 is very good IMO. If you buy new then like almost any new clarinet it might benefit from a setup. I don't remember if the YCL-52 has pointed pivot screws or pilot pivot screws. I know the older YCL-34 had the pilot screws. I consider pointed screw a significant improvement, so if the 52 has the pilot pivot screws (hopefully someone else here would know) I would prefer the newer model instead (though you can have problematic screws changed, might be less expensive than the price difference between the models).
The Leblanc Bliss is ok too. I tried many of those a few times. I don't remember anything negative but nothing special either. Felt like a decent clarinet that is probably fine for a student or many other players. Since I only play tested and never checked thoroughly I can't say much about build quality. I tried them at instrument exhibitions so can't really say much about them playing sharp either.
Post Edited (2010-05-23 05:05)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-05-23 09:44
All three of the models you listed are decent instruments. You might also want to contact some repairs technicians and see if they have any recently overhauled used clarinets for sale as there is a good chance you could end up with a better instrument for less money by going that route.
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Author: AllesonWonderland
Date: 2010-05-23 13:29
Thanks for the info so far and for the link. The YCL-52 I found is around $500...so not quite the deal the linked poster found! So far, the best new prices I've found were the YCL-450 for $800 with nickel keys or $1000 with silver keys. I did find a new Bliss on a site with a short term 'sale' for just under $800...it expired so I'll have to see if it's offered again.
I'll be sure to make some calls to repair techs to see if I can find a good used deal. The music store that rents the instruments had some used ones, but their prices didn't seem that great.
I'm just nervous, not knowing if I should scoop up the YCL-52, or hold out for a better deal.
Can anyone tell me what the difference is between nickel and silver keys?
Thanks again!
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Author: William
Date: 2010-05-23 14:56
But realize, you DO NOT have to select from "the list". A used Buffet R13 (top pro clarinet) may be no more expensive than a new "list" clarinet but would be far superior instrument and last a lifetime. The same could be said for any other used pro instrument--Yamaha, Leblanc or Selmer to name just a few. Look on the popular auction sites or your local newspaper. A call to your areas local musician union may turn up some leads. Of course, buying used always carries some risk, especially for the non-musician you said you were--trying before you buy is always recommeded. However, your local band director should be willing to take a look at anything you might find and evaluate it for you before you buy. Bottom line: used is often better than new, is usually more "bang for your buck" in terms of quality and can look just as good with a little TLC.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2010-05-23 15:04
Nickel vs. silver keys:
Basically, the nickel plating will get cloudy over time. The silver is often preferred because 1) it often wears better and stays nicer longer (use anti-tarnish strips in the clarinet case) and 2) some prefer the way the keys feel to the touch, less slippery than the nickel. Although some find that nickel keys make it easier to slide their fingers to other keys when fast and/or tricky fingering is called for.
Your daughter's band director has recommended wood clarinets exclusively...all intermediate models. Has she been playing for long? Does she already have a clarinet? If so, which one? If she is just starting out, I'd be inclined to second Clarnibass's recommendation of the Yamaha 250, the student (plastic) model.
Nothing wrong with any of the three choices you listed, as long as they are set up correctly by the seller or a good technician; that is, no air leaks, good spring tension and key response.
Perhaps more to the point: Is your daughter already taking lessons or does she plan to? If she has a teacher, have you consulted with him/her? If she's already playing, she ought to play test an instrument before buying.
Post Edited (2010-05-23 15:30)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-05-23 15:07
I agree with William.
Take the "list" as a guide to instruments that probably won't disappoint, not the only practical choices.
I've only played the Bliss from this list. I do not know if it plays sharp on purpose because I couldn't sit down with a tuner and fiddle with it. BUT, its keywork was better than my well-nurtured Buffer R-13.
With a little knowledge, you might be able to "beat the list."
Bob Phillips
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-05-23 17:28
If you don't have to deal with Marching band or have a plastic clarinet already, get a good wooden one.
They sound better, plain and simple - good wood is better than good plastic.
Argue away, but you're not changing my mind on that one.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-05-23 17:36
The 52 model will be about 8 or more years old.
An R13 will cost you a lot more than $500 if it's any good.
Make sure that whatever you get has keys that aren't worn out - have a repairman (or a good private teacher) check it out.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-05-23 17:53
Since your daughter is a new beginner in the fall, and the "demo" YCL-52 is priced at $500, I'd opt for this one.
You are going to get all kinds of suggestions from this forum. There are those that want everybody to have a professional level clarinet. There are those that think you should only buy what you really need. It's very confusing to someone that wants to do what's best for their child. You don't know if your daughter is going to stay in band after the first year, and a huge investment in something that you might not be able to get your money back out of is not a good choice. Of the clarinets mentioned thus far the Yamaha YCL-52 is as good as any of them with the exception of the professional R-13.....which will be at the very least twice the cost of the Yamaha.
Take what you've read here, and discuss it with the band director. Let him help you make the decision on the instrument, and with the mouthpiece and reeds he prefers.
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Author: AllesonWonderland
Date: 2010-05-23 18:05
I'm so happy I found this board! Thanks sharing all your knowledge and opinions. Yes, the band director is suggesting intermediate instruments. She does not want us to get plastic. (Too bad, my daughter really wanted a pink one. LOL) My daughter hasn't played at all, just got a perfect score on the aptitude test they took, then scored highest on clarinet for being the best fit for her. I understand that she may decide to play a different instrument down the road, or not be in band at all...but I'd rather buy a clarinet I could sell later on, rather than pay $40-$50 a month for the rental and not have anything to show for it. Perhaps upgrading to a more professional grade clarinet is something we will look at later on if she sticks with it.
I did see on the Yamaha site that it said YCL-52's were manufactured from 1985-2002, so I know I'd be getting an older instrument. Hopefully the fact that it's never been played (except for demo in the store) and it's been in a climate controlled environment for all this time would make up for it's age.
Thanks again! Feel free to add any more insight you have!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-05-23 18:35
Typically music stores have a 3 month rental trial for about $100 total (often even as low as $45) for a plastic clarinet.
That what I'd always suggest for someone just starting to play to see if the clarinet is for them - regardless of a little almost meaningless aptitude test.
Also, of she's going to accidently bang the instrument, let it be a rental at first.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2010-05-23 22:15
Go with the Yamaha if its in good playable condition (have the 'demo' 'demoed' with the mouthpiece you'll be using) Check carefully for hairline cracks that diminish value. You'll lose very little reselling it on the internet auction site if she switches to another instrument. You'll take a 50% hit buying any of the mentioned horns new.
Clark G. Sherwood
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2010-05-26 02:11
Try a Yamaha YCL250; very good horn if you use a good mp /barrel. Otherwise it can be quite sharp. REnt one or buy a used one. It's plastic but very hardy and sounds good with a good mp/barrel.
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Author: reddog4063
Date: 2010-05-26 03:31
Beginning band with approve instrument lists and wooden instruments as a first? Gosh I feel old......anyone else have a "band closet" for the first few years?
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-05-26 04:34
Don't get me started. The directors in our area put the E-11, Vandoren 5RV Lyre mouthpiece, BG ligature and cap and a "cleaning kit" to the tune of about $30 on their "recommended" list. Most parents don't want little Johnny or Susie to feel left out and usually spring for the whole deal. They pay for the first month's rent to buy payment (around $50 bucks plus tax) AND pay cash for the mouthpiece and cleaning kit plus tax. ...oh, and they have to buy a music stand too.
These directors try saying that this will take them all the way thru high school, but the pressure to get an R-13 in 9th or 10th grade is pretty heavy if the kiddo can halfway play.
The directors wonder why beginner enrollment is decreasing.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-05-26 09:30
> These directors try saying that this will take them all the way thru high
> school, but the pressure to get an R-13 in 9th or 10th grade is pretty heavy
> if the kiddo can halfway play.
Well that (the pressure) is not the director's fault, is it? It comes from other players and is often originated in BBoards like this one.
Maybe we're doing kids and parents a disservice if we constantly repeat the mantra that an R13 was the only way to go...
--
Ben
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-26 14:25
ACK! There's a lot of good stuff out there. How this can happen, if only R13 is "playable"?
@Folks: Open your eyes! Go out sometimes to inspect the market...it's interesting, sure ;-)
kindly
Roman
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-05-26 14:43
Ben and Roman, I don't think the R-13 is the only clarinet to have, but the teachers in this part of the state think nothing else will do. So many of these are sold the retail outlets here stock little else in the way of top line clarinets. It's a shame, but that is the way it is.
Just about every middle school and high school clarinetist takes private lessons that are arranged by the band directors. The lessons are taught in the schools. The private instructors all play Buffet. The top players in each school plays Buffet. The younger kids follow suit.
Ben, you're right about the pressure not being the director's fault in that few of the directors are clarinet players, and accept the recommended instruments of their private teachers. BBoards have little to do with this. This was going on long before there were BBoards like this.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-05-26 15:00
> Ben, you're right about the pressure not being the director's fault in that
> few of the directors are clarinet players, and accept the recommended
> instruments of their private teachers. BBoards have little to do with this.
> This was going on long before there were BBoards like this.
Each entity that creates "opinion", such as online communities, teachers, salespeople etc, helps to keep this de facto monopoly alive.
--
Ben
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-26 15:11
"Each entity that creates "opinion", such as online communities, teachers, salespeople etc, helps to keep this de facto monopoly alive."
I'm in 110% agreement with you,Ben!
Justme
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-05-26 15:27
The Buffet Mafia was a strong presence long before Algore "created" the Internet! I used to subscribe to the same culture, but I have expanded my mindset since the 1970s. 
Buffet offers many excellent clarinets, but others offer at least as many quality choices. It never hurts to keep an open mind. You can find a real gem of an instrument where you never considerecd looking!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2010-05-26 17:11)
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Author: llgusa
Date: 2010-05-31 05:01
I have a wooden Bliss. I've checked it with a tuner on multiple occasions and it does not play sharp. It also blends well with the R-13s in the community band that I play in. A local clarinet professor recommended it over a used R-13. I've been very happy with it.
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Author: SantiandCo
Date: 2010-05-31 06:36
William said, " A used Buffet R13 (top pro clarinet) may be no more expensive than a new "list" clarinet but would be far superior instrument and last a lifetime"
This might be true if a used R-13 went for around $1000. A used R-13 in a "well" to "good" condition won't go for any less than $1500 and that's if you get lucky. I've only found a used R-13 go for this "cheap" on Ebay, other than that it won't go below $1800.
Honestly these are all good clarinets for any student. I have a friend who has a Leblanc Bliss. He is a great player, and he can do wonders with it. I once asked him if I could try it out and air blew out fairly easy. At first it was fairly sharp, but with a small barrel and throat adjustment it played well in tune. My only problem with it was its keys. Even though my hands are small the keys felt really small compared to my Ridenour clarinet. The keys felt a little fragile and loose. It didn't really affect the sound of the clarinet but it just felt a little strange. But for others this doesn't feel strange because everyone has their prefrences, so I'd have you daughter try it out before you bought it for her just to see how she feels with it.
Oh and there's the Buffet E-11. Honestly this is the clarinet you want to get to part of the "status-quo". In my high school's concert band (the less good band of the two in my school) only one player has an E-11 and he's second chair of a section of about 10. In my high school's wind ensemble (the better of the two) 6 people have E-11s, 1 has an R-13, and 1 has a Leblanc model (but its not the Leblanc Bliss, I'm not sure what it is). The 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and last chair have an E-11 in my wind ensemble. And really its not really the clarinet that makes them this good (even though it plays exceptionally well), but it's just the fact that its a BUFFET E-11. For any advancing or naturally great player (not always) any other clarinet that's not Buffet is inferior, so it has to do more with the mentality of it. But despite the Buffet E-11's great track record, it still tends to play sharp in the high register (and the higher you get the more noticeable it becomes).
As for the Yamaha YCL-450 I think its equal if not better than an E-11, and definetely better than a Leblanc Bliss. I think it can compete with many professional models, but I still consider it an intermediate model. My private teacher plays in one and he once let me try it and blowing air through it was so easy that the high notes became easy to play IN TUNE.
Now here's my story... I play in a Ridenour Lyrique 576-BC rubber clarinet. And just a few months ago I was going through the same thing as you were right now: trying to find a good clarinet for the price range of about $1000 (actually you're trying to find the best intermediate model clarinet you can find but why settle for an intermediate clarinet if you could get a professional model clarinet for the same price). A few months I had a Selmer Soloist student model and after 3 years of playing and one semester of marching band it had become junk. I'd always mess around in class (and despite my popularity) everyone thought I was a mediocre player. I knew I wasn't a bad player, I just had a bad clarinet. And I know everyone's going to say "It's not the instrument, it's the player" but there's a point in everyone's life where you just have to say your instrument is a load of crap. After two months of searching for the best clarinet for the price range of about $1000 I finally had to pick the Ridenour clarinet because of its fantastic reviews and praises by clarinet players everywhere. Some even dared to say that it was better than an R-13 (even though I still have my doubts), and everyone said that it was better than any Buffet E-11 they have owned or tried. When I bought this clarinet I was 7th chair in my school's concert band. Two weeks after I had received it I had to go to my high school's wind ensemble audition and guess who made it... I did. Everyone was left shocked and dumbfounded, even my teacher (and obviously he's the one who auditioned me). I even did better than my conert band's second chair player, and amazingly he has an E-11. He's a really good friend of mine, and he's a great player (he made it to Wind Ensemble too), but I honestly think I am a better player than him and not solely because of the results of the audition, but because I've heard him play and I've heard myself play, and I think my tone is much darker and better in tune than his. And next year when schools begins again, I'll be able to prove it to him and everyone else. Obviously I'd like to tell him this but I won't because of a lack on an arguement,and because of his nature. He's excessively cocky and arrogant, and he constantly critiques my playing technique (even with my Ridenour clarinet) and I know he just does this just because of his excessive proud nature. And I know there's nothing wrong with my technique or tone because I have a private PROFESSIONAL AND EXPERIENCED teacher who say my technique and tone is good and that there's nothing wrong with it.
That's my story but the choice is yours. Any of these clarinets are good but I never regret having choosed my Ridenour clarinet.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-05-31 13:18
Band Nerd,
You said "The pitch would be higher because most students are really flat when they start out."
What do you base the assertion on? After having taught many hundreds of clarinet beginners during my band director days, I have not found this to be the case.
Do you have some information that I missed along the way?
HRL
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Author: tinman
Date: 2010-06-01 10:44
Buffet is the best..I have a R13 and they are the best clarient's in the world.. They and great to learn on and the company is good too. Well maed and great tone too...and can take a knock.
Robert
England.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-06-01 11:05
> Buffet is the best..
While Cod Liver Oil might be one of the best things too, people sometimes seem to prefer ice cream... :-)
What instruments have you played, apart from your R13?
--
Ben
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-06-01 18:27
Hank,
I don't know what Buffet is doing with their new French-made E11s but, for years, they deliberately manufactured the German E11s to play at A = 442. (This is probably why we sometimes see posters to this board complaining that they play sharp.) In their advertising, Buffet described the E11 (at least the German one) as a (wooden) student model, not an intermediate model. As I recall, (OK, I'm too lazy to do an extensive search) it was Francois Kloc who said their reason for pitching the E11 a little on the sharp side was that they found that kids beginning on clarinet tended to play flat relative to kids on other instruments -- because of undeveloped embouchures. Apparently their experience was different than yours. (Or maybe most of your kids played E11s and B12s and Buffet knew what they were doing.) In any case, while I've never heard it from an official source, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Leblanc was doing the same thing with the Bliss.
Two comments, Alleson... (1) IMO, if it's still available and truly in like-new condition from a local seller, I think the YCL-52 is probably your best option. Yamaha is the one "Big-4" company that is really willing to compete on price. At any given price point, the Yamaha will generally be 1/2 step to a whole step higher in the company's line than the competition. Ask the seller to run it through their shop to make sure it's in good playing condition. They'll probably be willing to do that to make the sale. If the YCL-52 isn't local, it may still be the best deal from a financial standpoint (after all, used YCL-52s in "like new" condition are bringing around $500 on eBay so even if your daughter doesn't stick with the clarinet, you'll be out less than you would be if you rented a lesser instrument). On the other hand, there's more risk involved -- perhaps more than a parent looking for his child's first instrument ought to take. (2) Never underestimate the importance of "shiny new looking" to most kids starting on an instrument . Of course, you know best how your child is on this issue.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2010-06-01 18:30)
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Author: AllesonWonderland
Date: 2010-06-04 03:43
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> >
> Two comments, Alleson... (1) IMO, if it's still available and
> truly in like-new condition from a local seller,
> I think the YCL-52 is probably your best option. Yamaha is the
> one "Big-4" company that is really willing to compete on price.
> At any given price point, the Yamaha will generally be 1/2
> step to a whole step higher in the company's line than the
> competition. Ask the seller to run it through their shop to
> make sure it's in good playing condition. They'll probably be
> willing to do that to make the sale. If the YCL-52 isn't
> local, it may still be the best deal from a financial
> standpoint (after all, used YCL-52s in "like new" condition are
> bringing around $500 on eBay so even if your daughter doesn't
> stick with the clarinet, you'll be out less than you would be
> if you rented a lesser instrument). On the other hand, there's
> more risk involved -- perhaps more than a parent looking for
> his child's first instrument ought to take. (2) Never
> underestimate the importance of "shiny new looking" to most
> kids starting on an instrument . Of course, you know best how
> your child is on this issue.
>
> Best regards,
> jnk
>
Thanks for your input! I did go ahead and get the YCL-52, after many emails back and forth with the person selling it and the promise of a money back guarantee if I wasn't totally pleased. Took it to a tech yesterday who didn't think it had ever been played. There are 2 pads that are leaking a little air that he will fix (and the seller will reimburse me for.) The guy who looked at it pulled out the catalog that said a new YCL-450 with silver keys would cost me at least $1200...so he thought me getting a basically new, like model for less than half the price was a great deal.
And you're right--"shiny new looking" is a factor. My husband first threw out that his sister had a clarinet...25 years ago. My daughter looked slightly horrified. LOL I know she'll play at least a year, the cost of this instrument is less than what we would have paid for a rental for the year.
Now, to find a case or case cover so my daughter can be 'unique.' Oh, and the required mouthpiece, which the clarinet guy evidently disagreed with the band director's choice...but that's a whole different topic.
Thanks again all!! I certainly appreciate all the advice and opinions.
>
> Post Edited (2010-06-01 18:30)
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