 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinet60
Date: 2010-05-24 15:45
I've recently been analyzing several recordings/performances of Debussy's Premier Rhapsody, and have a question for some of our board's top players - In the last two/three measures of the piece, it is marked au mvmt (just after the final run above the three quarter notes). The recordings I have by Harold Wright, Franklin Cohen, and Sabine Meyer they play this rather slow and deliberately. An older recording I have by Gigliotti, he plays the three quarter notes very fast (more reflective of au mvmt), and in my opinion this sounds quite good. Just curious about these divergent interpretations...
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-05-24 17:28
seems just about every recording I have heard, with the exception of gigliottis, slows down.
I studied the piece with Gigliotti, he said basically that it says to move, so therefore you move.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2010-05-24 17:51
I always thought au mouvement meant the same as a tempo; not "to move" (at least not in music). I vote with Wright, Meyer, Cohen!
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Author: Plonk
Date: 2010-05-24 18:03
I agree - I always thought it was the French equivalent of "a tempo". Just did a quick google and the first 3 definitions I found agree too, e.g. Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo#French_tempo_markings
(I do know Wikipedia is not the final word!)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-05-24 18:10
I just listened to Hamelin play it. He does it at a faster tempo then the two bars prior, certainly faster than the beginning of the piece.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-05-24 18:42
According to my Oxford concise:
"MOUVEMENT_.......Sometimes (as in Debussy), the word is used to indicate a return to the original speed after some tempo deviation."
I suppose that definition could be used to justify returning to the first tempo of the piece.
But I think, it is a "return" to the "plus anime (the last double bar before the "un peu retunu")". It seems to me that the "tempo deviation" is the peu retunu, which starts six measures before the passage in question, and is ten measures from the end f the piece.
Also, # 9 is marked "1 tempo"- this is obviously a return to the beginning, because, well, it is a recap of the beginning.
If Debussy saw fit to call # 9 "1 tempo", it stands to reason he could have refered to the last four bars as "tempo 1" also.
...or maybe not.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-05-24 19:27
"au mouvement" = a tempo
"un peu retenu" = poco ritenuto (hold back the tempo a little)
I think the place most folks deviate from the score the most is actually 2 bars before the "au mouvt." They slow the little triplet figure down so much that it sounds like the quarter notes in the "au mouvement" measure. If you follow what the score says, though, those triplets are actually supposed to go by pretty fast.
Here's how I read this passage: The piano plays its little rest-2-3-1 rhythm at the first 3/4 bar, and the clarinet's triplet measure is kind of an echo of that rhythm (at the same tempo as the piano), except that when the clarinet plays it, beat 3 is decorated with triplets. The clarinet then does basically the same thing in the "au mouvement" measure--the first quarter note terminates the upward run, and the last two quarter notes begin the final repetition of the 2-3-1 rhythmic motive. It's a sort of question and answer thing. The piano introduces a motive. The clarinet picks it up tentatively with a little added decoration, then completes the idea triumphantly.
Most of the recordings I've heard try to connect (conceptually) the triplets to the quarter notes or the end of the piano passage by slowing them down or distorting the rhythm (that is, turning the triplets into eighths) or both--and when they slow down, they don't slow down just a little (as is written), they slow down a lot. This can make the "au mouvement" passage sound slow, because the listener is fooled into thinking that the triplets are where the beats (or half-beats, as the case may be) are (when, in fact, the three triplets together take up one beat in the score).
If you don't slow down the triplet measure too much, and you keep the same rhythmic feel there as in the preceding piano measures, the "au mouvement" will sound like you've actually returned to a quicker tempo, instead of slowing things down, because the listener will be mentally counting the quarter notes instead of the triplets.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-05-24 19:34
salzo wrote:
Quote:
But I think, it is a "return" to the "plus anime (the last double bar before the "un peu retunu")". It seems to me that the "tempo deviation" is the peu retunu, which starts six measures before the passage in question, and is ten measures from the end f the piece.
That's what I think, too. Also, it's worth noting that "au mouvement" doesn't literally mean the same thing as "tempo primo" (first tempo). It's closer in meaning to "a tempo," which really means "in tempo" (with no reference to a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. tempo).
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-05-24 22:55
I don't consider myself one of the "Board's top players" but I'll throw in my understanding, anyway. In "A to Z of Foreign Musical Terms," Ammer explains "au mouvement" as "return to (previous) tempo." In other words, as Debussy wrote it, I think "au mouvement" signals the end of "un peu retinue" (i.e., a return to "Plus anime") rather than a return to "1° Tempo." So my vote's with Salzo and mrn here.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2010-05-24 22:56)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2010-05-25 00:04
I don't have the score in front of me right now but the question seems to be what "original tempo" Debussy was referring to.
I think Mike explains it nicely and indeed the explanation makes perfect sense. Otherwise, which "original tempo" could Debussy possibly be referencing? That is why it simply has to be the plus anime.
The other point that Mike took the time to explain, about 2 before the last au mouvement, is extremely important in relation to that last au mouvement.
Many clarinetists are not aware that Debussy augmented the rhythmic motive in 3 & 4 after the final un peu retenu and end up mistaking the augmentation for the quarter note pulse that precedes it in measures 1 & 2.
Why rob Debussy of this wonderful compositional device, namely the heightened dramatic effect of the augmentation ALONG WITH the final a tempo (that of plus anime) that also gives the wonderful forward momentum bring the piece to a thrilling end?
Those triplets in the un peu retenu tempo can be played only so slowly before they morph into an entirely slower tempo than the printed musical instructions.
This "contest piece" challenges the musicians in every way conceivable including the knowledge of tempo relationships and following relatively straightforward musical instructions.
Now if someone would please attempt to explain why the modernment anime just before the scherzando section is never played at the original slower tempo but at a much faster tempo?
The other two items seem relatively benign compared to the real, $64,000 question - one of great musical significance for clarinetists everywhere.
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2010-05-25 00:06)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-05-25 02:54
There will always be controversy over the meaning of this but it is my opinion, for what ever that's worth, that it means "a tempo", not tempo 1, so I've always played those last notes in the tempo prior the last change of tempo, which is what a tempo means as apposed to tempo 1 which means the original tempo of the piece. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: normancult
Date: 2010-05-25 15:57
Good ideas here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOPCONxec9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UAnTgGawVw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd4vU84zX3U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU_Jp8gOg4Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt0tfm5Z1eE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAnMg6hoVIc&feature=related
and here Dangain plays with Martinon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y6KnLVE0Fk
It is not perfect but it has a good approach.
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